Atheist Music

conv3rsion said:
It can't be the default, because it is equally as plausible either way.
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Atheism is the default. If you were born and never became indoctrinated into religion (not saying you were), you would probably invent theories to explain and justify your environment. However, prior to your theories and suppositions, you didn't hold any beliefs in a "god" or "higher power" or "intelligent design." If you held those beliefs later on in life, it was because you invented them.

To put it bluntly, believing in god doesn't come naturally. You weren't born with it. It IS the default.
 


Although arguing over it seems pointless and irritating.. there's damn good reason to do it.

Most here will admit that a persons religion or non-religion will likely help determine their politics (at least these days in America).

And Politics determine laws, and actions we undertake (wars, etc).

So trying to convince others of your beliefs is essentially trying to convince others to pursue political stances you'd take.. which have a major impact on all of us.

That's why it's important. Even though I don't have the stamina to keep doing it. I used to believe it was all well and good to let the ignorant be blissful.. but not anymore. Fuck that shit. Your idiocy effects me in major ways.
 
hellblazer said:
That's alright. That's all I needed. We have the second atheist to admit they have no moral standards. It is all in the eye of the beholder.

Which means if there is no right, and there is no wrong, atheists have no right to tell others that their system is 'better' or 'worse' than others, since 'better' or 'worse' are all subjective and in the eye of the beholder.

And even if one atheist says religion is 'bad' because of the deaths it purportedly caused, another atheist could say religion is 'good' for the very same reason. Who are you to tell me death or murder is 'wrong' when I set my own morals?

In this light, there is no 'ideology' that is better. Atheism, theism, religion - all are placed on the same level playing field and no man can say one is better than the other.
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I'm not admitting that I, personally, have no moral standards, I'm saying GENERALLY that no moral standards exist period. (You're being intellectually dishonest.)

No, absolute moral standards exist including all of theism. (Since all the different religions within theism are contradictory)

If you agree with me that no moral standards exist, then how can you point to your bible and say here are my morals.

At this point, I'm just going to assume your Christian until you state otherwise.
 
UnripeArbiter said:
Please share your religion with us, since you know EXACTLY what our beliefs are.
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Dodged.

SUP3RNOVA said:
I'll post my beliefs in a little bit, if I don't pass out beforehand. I don't plan on dodging the question though.
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I'll consider it dodged.


Notice: Theists are dodging the question.... What do you believe in?

^ (One heck of a tough question, if you haven't figured it out yet.) ^
 
hellblazer said:
Let's accept your characterization of the Old Testament God for a second.

Think about why you're saying you don't believe he exists.

You've built an idea in your head of what a possible God would look like.
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Obviously so have you, and whats amazing is you think that one is plausible.

hellblazer said:
And the reason you reject Noah's God is because he doesn't match up with your idea of what a God should be. In your mind, your perfect God wouldn't be 'narcissistic' and 'petty'(Not that I necessarily agree with that characterization).

That's your objection. You're basically saying, "God doesn't exist because he's meaner than I thought he would be."
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Its defintely not about being meaner, its about being overly simplistic, a little too human, and flat out contradictory. Plus having a strange fetish for attention and adoration that has seemingly changed in the last 2000 years.

hellblazer said:
When in reality, if a God existed, he would be what he is regardless of what you wanted or wished for him to be. He would have whatever personality he had regardless of what you wanted. That's just a simple fact.
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Thats true. But I'm not the one claiming any knowledge of how he would be, you are. And you are claiming, at a minimum, he/she/it

A: requires praise for some reason
B: punishes those who don't provide that praise
C: picks and chooses specific races of people to side with
D: holds generational grudges
E: requires human sacrifice (at a minimum to include jesus) for the solving of sin. Something, by the way, the concept of which this god came up with.

Admit that your God does have these 5 specific characteristics or state why this is an incorrect characterization. Then explain why, for any reason other than fear, you would choose to side with this type of God. Also please reconcile free will with these.

hellblazer said:
I don't even need to go there. I'm still debunking atheists' claim that atheism is better than religion, when by their own standards, a concrete definition of 'better' doesn't even exist.
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Even if you ascribe moral relativity to all atheists, since you insist without religious texts there can be no objective morality (ha!), you still have to defend your own morality, as you are requiring them to defend theirs. And bluntly, the morality described in the bible is fucked up by almost everyone's standards, which is why most people are not fundamentalists (since they are somewhat sane).
 
WickedJoe said:
Although arguing over it seems pointless and irritating.. there's damn good reason to do it.

Most here will admit that a persons religion or non-religion will likely help determine their politics (at least these days in America).

And Politics determine laws, and actions we undertake (wars, etc).

So trying to convince others of your beliefs is essentially trying to convince others to pursue political stances you'd take.. which have a major impact on all of us.

That's why it's important. Even though I don't have the stamina to keep doing it. I used to believe it was all well and good to let the ignorant be blissful.. but not anymore. Fuck that shit. Your idiocy effects me in major ways.
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EXACTLY.

conv3rsion said:
Even if you ascribe moral relativity to all atheists, since you insist without religious texts there can be no objective morality (ha!), you still have to defend your own morality, as you are requiring them to defend theirs. And bluntly, the morality described in the bible is fucked up by almost everyone's standards, which is why most people are not fundamentalists (since they are somewhat sane).
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This is also why I consider a fundamentalist to be at least honest.
 
conv3rsion said:
Its defintely not about being meaner, its about being overly simplistic, a little too human, and flat out contradictory. Plus having a strange fetish for attention and adoration that has seemingly changed in the last 2000 years.

But I'm not the one claiming any knowledge of how he would be...
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Yes you are. By saying God couldn't be narcissistic, or petty, or simplistic, you're saying the God you envision in your head can't possibly be those things. And so because the mythical God you've created in your mind doesn't align with the Old T. God, therefore the Old T. God is wrong.

This is your standard of proof?

conv3rsion: "God A(my ideal God) doesn't jibe with God B(the Bible version) - therefore, God B is wrong."

conv3rsion said:
A: requires praise for some reason
B: punishes those who don't provide that praise
C: picks and chooses specific races of people to side with
D: holds generational grudges
E: requires human sacrifice (at a minimum to include jesus) for the solving of sin. Something, by the way, the concept of which this god came up with.
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Again, you are arguing that your version of a God wouldn't possess those characteristics. You don't have a problem with a God existing, simply a 'simplistic' or 'petty' one. And yet, if the Old T. God really did exist, he could give a flying fuck what you thought. He could care less what kind of God you've imagined exists. Theoretically, a God could be anything; jealous, psychopathic, homicidal, insane, etc..

conv3rsion said:
you still have to defend your own morality, as you are requiring them to defend theirs.
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I don't have to defend anything, because I wasn't asserting anything. The atheists began by saying atheism was better than religion, when concepts of 'better' or 'worse' technically don't exist in atheism. I simply pointed out their own logical fallacies.
 
MC Hawking - Fuck The Creationists

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGNRYNdVT7g"]YouTube - MC Hawking - Fuck the creationists (audio with pics)[/ame]

Somewhere In The Between - Streetlight Manifesto


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5mFjnj4j2w&"]YouTube - Somewhere In The Between - Streetlight Manifesto NEW SONG[/ame]
 
Hellblazer.... Say I was born (alone, with no other people....hypothetically) on the moon and I wanted to move to Earth.

When I get to Earth how do I choose what religion to believe in?

It was easy for you since you probably didn't have to make that choice.

But for me the moon man how do I choose my religion? Who do I listen to?
 
Not dodging it. I actually started to type a response a few times and couldn't get my thoughts into words as well as I thought I could.

I believe that all the complexity in something as large as the universe and equal complexity of something as small as the human mind (both which we don't understand fully) couldn't just fabricate out of randomness. The theoretical fields that we're trying to now measure are crazy...we're constantly learning that more and more is possible.

My faith has also had practical application in my life. Perhaps it's just that my belief physically causes my brain to think more positively. But perhaps that's because the greater power really is within us to begin with. The Bible says in many places things like "the kingdom of Heaven is within you", "your body is a temple", etc. I believe some variation of that to be true, in the sense of having a "soul".

And by referencing the Bible in a way like that doesn't mean I directly agree with everything it says (in a literal sense). But it would make sense that our bodies are "temples", temples for our souls - something that on it's own has the capability of understanding more than our brains can physically understand right now. This sort of "gut feeling" would be supported by the many NDE subjects who would literally describe is as themselves being lifted from their physical body.

And in thoughts like those above, I'm not deriving them from what I've read in the Bible...the opposite actually. I took what I believe to be true, and searched for connections out there that fit what I believe in. The Bible seems to be a decent fit of general lessons and messages I would agree with (in my own interpretation).

I just can't come to believe that when it's over, it's over. We simply know too little as a human race to decide how narrow the spectrum is. It wasn't too long ago that we first learned how to fly off the ground, learned what gravity is, and learned that the Earth isn't flat. I can't discredit something that we're not smart enough to study. We can't observe it because we're not smart enough yet. We're learning to cheat death, perhaps even prevent it. When will we understand it?

This whole subject really is something that is extremely difficult for me to put into words. I can think of what I believe in and how I feel much more clear than I can actually form them into complete sentences. I know that only hurts my argument (how can I believe in something I can't even describe?), but the back of my mind simply says "yes, it is possible" to every issue regarding what we really are.

In the end, personal belief and what the "back of your mind" tells you is what you will follow. It's hard for an atheist to understand the far-fetched claims of theists, just like it's hard for theists to accept such stubborn and ignorant claims of atheists. Claiming that there is no life after death, no existence of a soul, and no other forces governing the universe that remain undiscovered, is just ignorance.

I don't claim to have any answers. But what I do believe in has led me down perhaps a slightly different road than if I were an atheist. While I struggle, I do make an effort to live by the simplest teachings of the Bible. To try and spread as much love and give as much as you can, just for the sake of spreading joy. In my opinion, the point of life is to be happy while we're here.



UnripeArbiter said:
I'll consider it dodged.


Notice: Theists are dodging the question.... What do you believe in?

^ (One heck of a tough question, if you haven't figured it out yet.) ^
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I figured you'd respond. :)

I respect the honesty in your post (and ultimately, I must respect your beliefs also) and I value your post for the insight it provides into the theist's mind.

I won't refute most of the things in your post, out of respect for your emotional well-being. (trust me that's BIG; the fact that I'm not refuting most of what you said)

However, there are a few things I'd like to comment on.

SUP3RNOVA said:
It's hard for an atheist to understand the far-fetched claims of theists, just like it's hard for theists to accept such stubborn and ignorant claims of atheists.
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It's not at all hard for any atheist to understand the far-fetched claims made by theists.

The claims are always (99.9% of the time) quite simple.

ie: (some claims you made) "the kingdom of Heaven is within you", "your body is a temple", "soul", anything from the bible you mentioned (or any variation thereof that you've created for yourself that is either derived from the bible or purely pulled from your "gut")

^ These claims I think anyone can understand.

But, why would anyone believe? The answer to that question is always nebulous. The answer always lacks definition and content and instead relies on "gut feelings" and things of the "faith" type. Why do I lack these same "gut feelings" and "faith capacities" that you have? I was raised in a Christian home and went to church since before I could remember. I never had these feelings. Has God disadvantaged me and doomed me to Hell from the beginning?

On the other hand, you say "... it's hard for theists to accept such stubborn and ignorant claims of atheists"

All we are "claiming" (although to be accurate it's not a claim, but is the default condition that a human being is in as he/she enters the world; babies have no beliefs...they are blank slates, their belief depends on the parent, but by default the baby is blank) is that these claims you made (and all theist claims) are untrue. Which is quite logical since all the claims you've made have no basis for belief in them. When I ask why believe? The only answer is faith and gut feelings. (This isn't only you, but 100% of theists) Not believing something because it completely lacks evidence to support it is not ignorant. Believing something despite complete lack of evidence is ignorant. So please.

I'm sure when I say "complete lack of evidence" your brain turns off... because you don't think that you need any because you have plenty of "gut feelings" to compensate.

Well, what if I told you that a "Spaghetti Monster" (it's just a hypothetical, I know it sounds silly but really think about it) exists and that instead of the God that you believe it's the Spaghetti Monster that I believe in. I'm telling you I have a really really strong gut feeling that this thing exists. I can't exactly describe it to you, but I'm telling you this thing is out there. I can feel it. I even have an ancient text titled "The Holy Noodle" that has every amazing quality that the Bible says. I run my life off this Holy Noodle text because it is so profound. Now imagine I'm trying my hardest to convince you that Spaghetti Monster exists. I'm trying so hard to convince you because I've read in my divine text that if you don't believe in the Spaghetti Monster he/it will send you to a eternal burning pit of fire to suffer for eternity. I am so concerned about you because you don't believe and you don't have any feelings that even indicate that a Spaghetti Monster exists. I know that your going to go to Hell if I don't convince you to believe, but you simply lack any gut feeling that's telling you to believe in my Spaghetti Monster. (As I am sure is the ACTUAL case, do you have any feelings telling you that the Spaghetti Monster is out there? of course not) You wouldn't even ask for evidence of my Spaghetti Monster because you lack even the will to investigate. It's perfectly normal. You totally doubt my Spaghetti Monster, you understand my claims, however you don't even want to see if there's evidence and you simply reject it. Of course you reject it, there is ABSOLUTELY no reason for you to believe my claims.

This is what/how atheists think of Christianity and every other religion out there. We have ABSOLUTELY no reason to believe. EXACTLY like you would think of the Spaghetti Monster in my hypothetical situation.

So, don't think that atheists must be somehow flawed because we "don't understand" your claims. We perfectly well understand your claims just as well as you understand my Spaghetti Monster claim. We also totally reject your claim just as you reject the Spaghetti Monster.


SUP3RNOVA said:
Claiming that there is no life after death, no existence of a soul, and no other forces governing the universe that remain undiscovered, is just ignorance.
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While I agree that other forces governing the universe may be yet discovered, I totally reject your other statements. You can't have any idea if there's a life after death or existence of a soul. If you claim otherwise is just ignorance. There will never exist a way to test these things. Any text or person claiming knowledge of these things must be wrong.


SUP3RNOVA said:
I don't claim to have any answers.
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To the contrary, you say you have a text that has the answers within. You say you don't believe all of it, but then why believe in any of it? You've already proven to yourself you can reject some of the things that you read in the Bible.

SUP3RNOVA said:
In my opinion, the point of life is to be happy while we're here.
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Agreed. :)
 
hellblazer said:
Yes, what a terrible idea to advocate honesty or marital faithfulness, or heaven forbid, not killing innocent people! What horror! Or how about respect for one's parents, or not lying about your neighbor! What terrible, fascist ideals!
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Talk about cherry picking, have you even read the bible?
 
BluuueJammm said:
Talk about cherry picking, have you even read the bible?
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They should just get together on a Sunday...

Cherry pick everything that feels good. Get rid of the rest it's senseless if it doesn't feel right, you know?

Make a nice little condensed version, digitize it. Give it a spiffy title.

Upload that thing to ClickBank and presto!
 
UnripeArbiter said:
But, why would anyone believe? The answer to that question is always nebulous. The answer always lacks definition and content and instead relies on "gut feelings" and things of the "faith" type. Why do I lack these same "gut feelings" and "faith capacities" that you have? I was raised in a Christian home and went to church since before I could remember. I never had these feelings. Has God disadvantaged me and doomed me to Hell from the beginning?
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Try to keep in mind when I mention things like "the kingdom of heaven", the Bible is something I struggle with every day. I don't know if there's actually a Heaven and Hell, where if you're a bad person you're automatically condemned. It seems when reading the near-death experiences, it doesn't matter if the person is a good person, bad person, or religious person - they all seem to feel better and at peace after they have died.


When I ask why believe? The only answer is faith and gut feelings. (This isn't only you, but 100% of theists) Not believing something because it completely lacks evidence to support it is not ignorant. Believing something despite complete lack of evidence is ignorant. So please.
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Again this is another connection to me that just would make sense. If we really do separate from our physical bodies after death and separate from everything that was "bad" in us (anger, hate, judgment, etc), we will become perfect. It only makes sense that something perfect can't exist in a clearly imperfect world (which we live in today - filled with hate, anger, greed). That's why it's something you have to have faith in. That's why I have faith.

Also keep in mind I'm using Biblical terms like "God" and "Heaven" as sparingly as possible. I didn't have to mention God, the Bible, or Heaven once when I was describing what I have faith in.

I'm sure when I say "complete lack of evidence" your brain turns off... because you don't think that you need any because you have plenty of "gut feelings" to compensate.
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Atheists have a complete lack of evidence as well. You just reach a different conclusion with it - "If it doesn't exist and we have no evidence of it existing, it must not be there."

Insert spaghetti monster story.
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Never once have I tried to convince you that unless you read the Bible, God will condemn you to hell. You can call it a spaghetti monster if you want, I could call God the Great Gatsby if I wanted to instead. A name is just a placeholder for something that exists that we don't understand. I'm not telling you that you should read the Bible and follow it's every word and accept it as truth. I don't, I've debated with my heavily Christian mother about it many times. She thinks every word of the Bible should be taken as it's written. I just think the Bible is there because it's a nice piece of supporting evidence for those who have faith.

This is what/how atheists think of Christianity and every other religion out there. We have ABSOLUTELY no reason to believe. EXACTLY like you would think of the Spaghetti Monster in my hypothetical situation.
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You have no reason to believe because you're creating reasons that wouldn't allow yourself to even start to believe. I believe because it's had practical application in my life, and through endless thought it's something that I just believe is there.

So, don't think that atheists must be somehow flawed because we "don't understand" your claims. We perfectly well understand your claims just as well as you understand my Spaghetti Monster claim. We also totally reject your claim just as you reject the Spaghetti Monster.
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I'm not claiming there's a Spaghetti Monster or even Garlic Bread Monster after you die. I have no idea what there will "be". I just believe that there will be something and not nothing. Messages in the Bible support this, people who have experienced death (nonbelievers) support this, and my thoughts support it as well.

There will never exist a way to test these things. Any text or person claiming knowledge of these things must be wrong.
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You prove my point about the stubbornness of atheists completely with that statement. I would be willing to bet there were people who said the EXACT same thing when somebody said to them "Hey, I bet 100 years from now we'll be able to float off the ground and fly to the moon out there." You can't claim to know how much technology and the human race will advance - and that's exactly what you're doing. Just because we haven't discovered something, does not mean it's not out there.

To the contrary, you say you have a text that has the answers within. You say you don't believe all of it, but then why believe in any of it? You've already proven to yourself you can reject some of the things that you read in the Bible.
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I never said the Bible has all the answers. I said there are things in the Bible that support my beliefs. I don't "believe" all of it because I simply don't understand most of it - that's the struggle. You're basing your opinion of me on the fact that I rely on the Bible to pull all of my beliefs and faith. I would say that I don't - I rely on my faith and what I believe to make sensible connections with what the Bible says.
 
SUP3RNOVA said:
Try to keep in mind when I mention things like "the kingdom of heaven", the Bible is something I struggle with every day. I don't know if there's actually a Heaven and Hell, where if you're a bad person you're automatically condemned. It seems when reading the near-death experiences, it doesn't matter if the person is a good person, bad person, or religious person - they all seem to feel better and at peace after they have died.




Again this is another connection to me that just would make sense. If we really do separate from our physical bodies after death and separate from everything that was "bad" in us (anger, hate, judgment, etc), we will become perfect. It only makes sense that something perfect can't exist in a clearly imperfect world (which we live in today - filled with hate, anger, greed). That's why it's something you have to have faith in. That's why I have faith.

Also keep in mind I'm using Biblical terms like "God" and "Heaven" as sparingly as possible. I didn't have to mention God, the Bible, or Heaven once when I was describing what I have faith in.



Atheists have a complete lack of evidence as well. You just reach a different conclusion with it - "If it doesn't exist and we have no evidence of it existing, it must not be there."



Never once have I tried to convince you that unless you read the Bible, God will condemn you to hell. You can call it a spaghetti monster if you want, I could call God the Great Gatsby if I wanted to instead. A name is just a placeholder for something that exists that we don't understand. I'm not telling you that you should read the Bible and follow it's every word and accept it as truth. I don't, I've debated with my heavily Christian mother about it many times. She thinks every word of the Bible should be taken as it's written. I just think the Bible is there because it's a nice piece of supporting evidence for those who have faith.



You have no reason to believe because you're creating reasons that wouldn't allow yourself to even start to believe. I believe because it's had practical application in my life, and through endless thought it's something that I just believe is there.



I'm not claiming there's a Spaghetti Monster or even Garlic Bread Monster after you die. I have no idea what there will "be". I just believe that there will be something and not nothing. Messages in the Bible support this, people who have experienced death (nonbelievers) support this, and my thoughts support it as well.



You prove my point about the stubbornness of atheists completely with that statement. I would be willing to bet there were people who said the EXACT same thing when somebody said to them "Hey, I bet 100 years from now we'll be able to float off the ground and fly to the moon out there." You can't claim to know how much technology and the human race will advance - and that's exactly what you're doing. Just because we haven't discovered something, does not mean it's not out there.



I never said the Bible has all the answers. I said there are things in the Bible that support my beliefs. I don't "believe" all of it because I simply don't understand most of it - that's the struggle. You're basing your opinion of me on the fact that I rely on the Bible to pull all of my beliefs and faith. I would say that I don't - I rely on my faith and what I believe to make sensible connections with what the Bible says.
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I shouldn't even worry about what you believe.

As long as you live your life in a way that doesn't interfere with mine, it's no bother of mine.

There's absolutely no reason it should bother me. (although I've been letting it bother me)

You shouldn't worry about an atheist's belief either... if you even did to start with. There's no way you're going to be able to change them. If an atheist offends you please don't let it get to you. Just know that your beliefs are personal and that no atheist will ever be able to understand them. I mean this in the most sincere of ways.

We should never had entered into this debate. I'm sure I haven't budged your original position that, I'm a tool, a bit. You haven't budged my original position either.

We used a lot of energy and got nowhere.

But in all honesty, I think I did get somewhere. Hopefully, we got somewhere. I now know how to more efficiently allocate my energy. Hopefully, you've learned not to truly waste your time trying to budge a stubborn atheist's position.

Truthfully, Unripe
 
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