I'm pretty drunk, someone explain this to me

Marketcake

Marketcake

God of Leisure
Dec 6, 2009
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Originally I was tripping really hard on acid and my friend mentioned it and since then I have thought about it sober occasionally to no avail. Its just now that Im kind of throwed I care enough to ask

how the fuck does a computer work via a series of "on" or "offs". I mean, theres a cpu which has millions of little switches.. physical hardware designed in a lab to allow electricity to go in a series of gates that decide on or, xor, and, etc. so to my understanding its just a web of electricity going in certain paths based on other paths.. but how the fuck does this translate to using that very same system to have the ability to understand and interpret ITSELF in programming, to create new fucking things out of nothing.. its like .. this is a terrible explanation by the way, but where is the real MEAT at (spinning of course)

thats like taking toothpicks that you can place in various positions and create a programming language which the toothpicks themselves understand and can interpret themselves. but where does that intepretation of itself arise from?? How does that extra dimension get added in there.. how the fuck can just an "on" or "off" translate to understanding itself based on rules that can do the trillions of things that computers can do
 


PS. I realize both my 'how does this work' threads are at the top of the foum lol.

way to go newcastle. i always end up reading wikipedia and shit if i decide not to go out
 
it works like a train system.

You have a bunch of rails going all over the country. The train (the single instruction from the program) travels down the rail and switches get thrown on or off to make the train go one way or another until the train makes it to its destination. From there passengers (the data) gets off and does what they need to do.

Pretend a transistor is a magnetic switch. You have a wire going across it but that wire isn't connected. Then the electromagnet has a wire going to it. It doesn't matter what goes into the original wire because nothing always comes out until the electromagnet gets electricity, repels from its current location upward till it touches the other two wires completing the circuit. Then the voltage can flow.

Like a train station the processor have a map of switches for each possible route. If a train wants to go from one city to another as the train passes by they flip the necessary switch to make it go in that direction. So if a binary 1 means go right and a 0 means go left and you have a programming instruction like 11001100 then it goes right, right, left left, right right, left left. That would take it to wherever it needs to be. Trailing along side that is the actual data for the instruction such as a math problem 2*3. The 11001100 could mean take me to the calculator portion via right right left left etc etc. Once there the last left means go to the multiplication. Once there hte multiplier takes the second chunk and splits it in half. The first half is hte first number the last is the second. It takes those two numbers and runs them through a series of transistors that create an AND gate which comes out with a number that is the multiplication of the two. After it has that number it stores it in memory (cache or ram) and when the programmer wants that number they grab the location where its at using a similar train map.

The directions and data are setup much like a package going to a mailbox.
You have the physical package itself. Then you have the State, City, Zipcode, Address and finally what to do with the package such as drop it off or pick one up (read and write). Each one is its own group of wires which are controlled by the program and each combination is a final destination and the package itself.
 
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The computer still needs inputs just like we do to be able to learn and create for itself. Think of this whale as a computer which has just become 'aware' to arbitrary input

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpiwRN6OA2A]YouTube - Sperm Whale[/ame]
 
Beerdive.gif
 
Deliguy said:
it works like a train system.

You have a bunch of rails going all over the country. The train (the single instruction from the program) travels down the rail and switches get thrown on or off to make the train go one way or another until the train makes it to its destination. From there passengers (the data) gets off and does what they need to do.

Pretend a transistor is a magnetic switch. You have a wire going across it but that wire isn't connected. Then the electromagnet has a wire going to it. It doesn't matter what goes into the original wire because nothing always comes out until the electromagnet gets electricity, repels from its current location upward till it touches the other two wires completing the circuit. Then the voltage can flow.

Like a train station the processor have a map of switches for each possible route. If a train wants to go from one city to another as the train passes by they flip the necessary switch to make it go in that direction. So if a binary 1 means go right and a 0 means go left and you have a programming instruction like 11001100 then it goes right, right, left left, right right, left left. That would take it to wherever it needs to be. Trailing along side that is the actual data for the instruction such as a math problem 2*3. The 11001100 could mean take me to the calculator portion via right right left left etc etc. Once there the last left means go to the multiplication. Once there hte multiplier takes the second chunk and splits it in half. The first half is hte first number the last is the second. It takes those two numbers and runs them through a series of transistors that create an AND gate which comes out with a number that is the multiplication of the two. After it has that number it stores it in memory (cache or ram) and when the programmer wants that number they grab the location where its at using a similar train map.

The directions and data are setup much like a package going to a mailbox.
You have the physical package itself. Then you have the State, City, Zipcode, Address and finally what to do with the package such as drop it off or pick one up (read and write). Each one is its own group of wires which are controlled by the program and each combination is a final destination and the package itself.
Click to expand...

this looks like a really awesome reply. ive reread it like a few times and I will just have to look again in the morning :o
 
Marketcake said:
<snip>...so to my understanding its just a web of electricity going in certain paths based on other paths.. but how the fuck does this translate to using that very same system to have the ability to understand and interpret ITSELF in programming, to create new fucking things out of nothing.. its like .. this is a terrible explanation by the way, but where is the real MEAT at (spinning of course)

thats like taking toothpicks that you can place in various positions and create a programming language which the toothpicks themselves understand and can interpret themselves. but where does that intepretation of itself arise from?? How does that extra dimension get added in there.. how the fuck can just an "on" or "off" translate to understanding itself based on rules that can do the trillions of things that computers can do
Click to expand...

That does not happen.

A computer does NOT

- Understand itself (as in being conscious)
- Create things out of nothing

A computer is, in essence a Turing machine. Alan Turing (that gay guy) created a thought experiment in which a machine was able to interpret symbols fed to it, write symbols and erase symbols.

That way, you can feed it information (0s and 1s) that it interprets via set rules and acts by writing or erasing.

This machine is a universal machine - a computer as it can act like any other machine given the proper instructions.

A computer might seem intelligent or conscious, but it is not.

A different thought experiment might help you on your way:

Imagine you are sitting in a closed, lighted room.

In one wall, there are two slots, "In" and "Out".

You are given sheets of paper with symbols written on them. You can not read them, as they are alien to you.

However, you have with you a book of rules. Every time a sheet is given to you, you open the book of rules and transcribe these symbols into other symbols by the rules in the book.

You can not read the symbols you have written either, but dutifully, you give them away into the "Out" slot.

Bravo!

You have just translated Japanese into Korean. You have, by the way, become a turing machine, doing the same work a computer does.
In is the input, out isd the output, the book is the program.

This room could be anything.. think "in" as MPG data, think "out" as video stream visible on the screen.

"In" is keystrokes, "out" is text on the screen.

etc...

::emp::
 
I am so fucking high should I type out an explanation please someone let me know I'm going to make a peanut butter sandwich right quick but I'll check back in a second lots of love guys.
 
emp said:
That does not happen.

A computer does NOT

- Understand itself (as in being conscious)
- Create things out of nothing

A computer is, in essence a Turing machine. Alan Turing (that gay guy) created a thought experiment in which a machine was able to interpret symbols fed to it, write symbols and erase symbols.

That way, you can feed it information (0s and 1s) that it interprets via set rules and acts by writing or erasing.

This machine is a universal machine - a computer as it can act like any other machine given the proper instructions.

A computer might seem intelligent or conscious, but it is not.

A different thought experiment might help you on your way:

Imagine you are sitting in a closed, lighted room.

In one wall, there are two slots, "In" and "Out".

You are given sheets of paper with symbols written on them. You can not read them, as they are alien to you.

However, you have with you a book of rules. Every time a sheet is given to you, you open the book of rules and transcribe these symbols into other symbols by the rules in the book.

You can not read the symbols you have written either, but dutifully, you give them away into the "Out" slot.

Bravo!

You have just translated Japanese into Korean. You have, by the way, become a turing machine, doing the same work a computer does.
In is the input, out isd the output, the book is the program.

This room could be anything.. think "in" as MPG data, think "out" as video stream visible on the screen.

"In" is keystrokes, "out" is text on the screen.

etc...

::emp::
Click to expand...

thanks for that

i understand their not conscious (unfortunately lol) but it still seems like something is missing as far as going from the 'following instructions' and interpreting part, into the immense abilities of.. say.. photoshop, and the insane insane complexities of programming. like how the hell is that possible to do from a combination of just on or off, and nothing more.. just instructions with TWO steps in different combinations.

im just gonna google how the first oldskool computer worked with the punchcards, i assume thats just a large version thats .00005% as complex
 
Marketcake said:
like how the hell is that possible to do from a combination of just on or off, and nothing more..
Click to expand...
Great question :)
Since binary has only two digits it makes it real easy to do simple math. All you have to do is look for a 0 or a single 1 and you know what the answer is.
1+0=1
0+0=0
1*0=0
1*1=1
1-0=1
1-1=0
1+1=1

Since anything multiplied by zero is zero this can easily be done with switches. You just arrange the switches so anytime any single switch is off current doesn't flow, therefore the output is a zero. Otherwise current flows making a one.

Since you can multiply that means you can divide. You just have to take the divider number and invert it (swap the 1's for 0's and visa versa) and do the multiplication.

With addition since anytime there is a 1 that means the answer is a 1. So you do the same as the multiplication but anytime theres a 1 you make all the switches come on so the output is a 1, else the switches stay off.

Since you can do addition that means you can do subtraction by taking the result and inverting it then adding 1.

If you can do simple math then you have yourself a computer because everything is based on that. For photoshop to show you a colored pixel on your screen it just adds up the red, green and blue values then plots them and using what i said in my other post sends that information to the video card. The video card is nothing more than a large set of shift registers (adders lined up) that individually goes to a large decoder (a multiplier that takes individual numbers and puts them out on a single wire).

Everything in computers are much more basic than ppl think. It's all very simple and common sense stuff working together to make something complicated.
 
how can it tell the difference between a 1 that is 1+0 and a 1 that is 1*1
Click to expand...

It can't - there's no previous state guaranteed to be associated with the current state (in before state machines).

It all really is as simple as just a massive collection of 0 and 1. Binary math doesn't allow for a 1 that was 1*1, or 1 AND 1, 0 OR 1, etc. It's all just 1.

That's part of what makes it cool though.

The 0 or 1 can come from an infinite amount of possibilities at any time. The usefulness of computing comes from being to control when and HOW the 0 or 1 appears.
 
MarketCake... Get over here, roll a spliff and I'll happily explain your ears off with this shit.

Typing it all up for a drunk guy somewhere on the world... meh, not so much.

::emp::
 
It's all done with logic gates.

and
or
xor
not
nand
nor
xnor

Two inputs, one output

Here are a few examples:


Here is the 'AND' gate table, the output is "true" when both inputs are "true." Otherwise, the output is "false."


Input 1 Input 2 Output
0 0 0
0 1 0
1 0 0
1 1 1


------------------------------
Here is the 'OR' gate

The output is "true" if either or both of the inputs are "true." If both inputs are "false," then the output is "false."

Input 1 Input 2 Output
0 0 0
0 1 1
1 0 1
1 1 1


7 main gates are used in IC's (integrated circuits)

and or xor not nand nor xnor


Lost my dandy little html table when I posted this, but you can get the idea.
 
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