Parents, Curb Your Brats!

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JakeStratham

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Oct 28, 2009
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A recent piece at CNN does a good job berating parents who seem unwilling or unable to discipline their kids:

Permissive parents: Curb your brats - CNN.com


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If you're the kind of parent who allows your 5-year-old to run rampant in public places like restaurants, I have what could be some rather disturbing news for you.

I do not love your child.

The rest of the country does not love your child either.

And the reason why we're staring at you every other bite is not because we're acknowledging some sort of mutual understanding that kids will be kids but rather we want to kill you for letting your brat ruin our dinner.

Or our plane ride.

Or trip to the grocery store.

Or the other adult-oriented establishments you've unilaterally decided will serve as an extension of your toddler's playpen because you lack the fortitude to properly discipline them, in public and at home.
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Indeed.

Several years ago, a lot of the headline restaurants in Vegas posted signs that said, "No child under six admitted." Period. A meal for two would cost $300-$400. Why allow an incompetent parent with an unruly child ruin it for others, and chase future business away? Here's an example...

Recently, I went out to dinner, and sat near a youngish couple with a screaming child. They did nothing to curb the problem, which continued for 30 minutes. My lady and I watched as others gathered their stuff and left. One couple left after ordering without waiting for their food. lol

When I grew up, a single look from my father was enough to shut me up. Back then, parents were parents. Most of 'em weren't adolescents in grown-up bodies trying to be friends with their kids.

It's a lot different today. Folks say that having a kid is difficult. It's not. You just need working reproductive organs. Two people with a combined IQ equal to room temp can figure it out. What's difficult is raising kids to be responsible, considerate, thinking human beings. That's difficult.

Most parents I've seen aren't up to the task. The evidence is in their unruly kids. Unfortunately, a lot of those kids, having never learned restraint, will have a tough time holding onto jobs, relationships, etc. later in life.


Oh, and good on the owner of this restaurant...

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RHXyFpV6mg"]YouTube - ‪Bill O'Reilly: No More Screaming Kids In Restaurants‬‏[/ame]
 


Agreed. Our daughter is 1.5 yrs old now and obviously no discipline is going to affect her behavior but she's getting closer to that age where we WILL discipline. We very rarely go out to eat because it's pretty difficult keeping her occupied enough to not want to run around, it's stressful as hell. I was one of those people who couldn't STAND crying/whining/bratty children while at a restaurant, and I still am one of those people. Can't wait until she's old enough to sit still and behave.

Edit: It also became painfully obvious with our first hand experience that there are different temperaments in children. My sister told me her kids were both able to sit still and be fine at a year n' a half, no way ours will. Sitting still is just not her thing, it's either move forward or sleep. :/
 
^agreed

I don't mind loud and unruly kids as long as the parents are making some effort to control it. Sometimes you just can't. What bothers me is an unruly kid and the parents sit there making no effort at all.
 
I understand that on planes, sometimes there's nothing you really can do when your 1 year old is screaming. But in restaurants and theatres? Take the kid outside for christ sake until it calms down.
 
The problem is two-fold:


  1. Parents and society that think "positive reinforcement" is better than whipping because it "hurts" self-esteem.
  2. Society that will believe the child over adults so malicious kids can get people put into jail if those adults try and discipline the child, i.e. South Park/Lord of the Flies parody.
The first year of the child's life is crucial (not a parent, just what I've observed) for how that child acts when it can talk and run around. If you're constantly giving it unnecessary attention to make it stop whining, etc. then it'll continue to let its tendencies escalate because it feels it can control you. I'm not saying you should neglect it, just constantly spoiling it needs to stop because it's only a very short-term solution to silence.

I forget which study it was, but there was one showing behavior and how by age 3 you've already developed your core behavior patterns and they are cemented by age 9 when you start developing abstract thought. It's those parents that don't want to be "mean" by physically disciplining their kids or not saying no to them early on that kill it for everyone when the child gets old enough to go to school so their behavior can rub off on other kids.

Bring paddling back into schools if you aren't going to control your child so the teachers can fix them for you.


Deliguy said:
^agreed

I don't mind loud and unruly kids as long as the parents are making some effort to control it. Sometimes you just can't. What bothers me is an unruly kid and the parents sit there making no effort at all.
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inb4: Casey Anthony Offer:

"Chloroform Parenting Kit"
 
Rexibit said:
The first year of the child's life is crucial (not a parent, just what I've observed) for how that child acts when it can talk and run around. If you're constantly giving it unnecessary attention to make it stop whining, etc. then it'll continue to let its tendencies escalate because it feels it can control you. I'm not saying you should neglect it, just constantly spoiling it needs to stop because it's only a very short-term solution to silence.
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I don't agree. There's no such thing as unnecessary attention. Babies need help the first year with practically everything, and their "whining" (crying) is pretty much their only means of communication. Can't spoil a baby man ;) Now, if we're talking 2's and 3's, they're able to comprehend more about cause and effect.

Also context needs to be taken into consideration, what is your definition of spoiling? Holding? Nursing? Playing? There's proof that the more a child is engaged, the smarter they become.
 
Teegs said:
I understand that on planes, sometimes there's nothing you really can do when your 1 year old is screaming. But in restaurants and theatres? Take the kid outside for christ sake until it calms down.
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It's not 1 year olds that we're talking about here. Babies do their natural thing and although I loathe parents that feel it's necessary to do long haul holidays with their newborns I understand that it's sometimes unavoidable to fly with extremely young children and earplugs only cost 10 cents a pair.

No, we're talking about young kids and the parents allowing them to run laps around the restaurant before, during and after their meals. It's particularly bad here with all the outdoor eating and somehow dinner table manners are forgotten when dining al fresco and that just seems to continue indoors as well. I've had kids playing hide and go seek under my dinner table here. It's particularly bad among some British expats who also fail to teach their children how to eat with a knife and a fork.

(old man voice) When we were kids we ate at the table, we said please and thank you, we didn't chew with out mouths open or whine about shit, and we sat at the table until we were excused. When eating at a restaurant we only got up to either use the washroom or leave the premises and we sat there politely until mom and dad were done their coffees as boring as that might have been.(/old man voice)
 
I blame liberals and apple. They are responsible for the pussification of the America. Back in the 50s a parent would just hit their kid. Jesus, its not a big deal. Lord have mercy!
 
A buddy and I were talking about this a few weeks back. We grew up with the same experience. Back then, if one of our teachers called our parents to report misbehavior, there was absolutely no question that we had done something inappropriate. And you could bet when our mothers/fathers got off the horn, we'd get it good. They'd listen to our side, but realize that our teachers had good reason to complain about our conduct.

Today, I know a lot of teachers. They tell me one of their biggest challenges is that parents always side with their kids. If the kid got a "D" in math, the teacher must have done a piss-poor job of teaching, even if the rest of the class did well. If the kid hit another kid, the other kid must have had it coming.

Incompetent parents.

I remember reading a WSJ article a few years back where corporate managers were interviewed about their young hires. A few said they have to reward them just for coming into the office on time. That's what prioritizing a kid's self-esteem over everything else has wrought (a problem my friend calls the "pussification of America" lol). To that point, this is a pretty good read...

How to Land Your Kid in Therapy - Magazine - The Atlantic

If there’s one thing I learned in graduate school, it’s that the poet Philip Larkin was right. (“They fuck you up, your mum and dad, / They may not mean to, but they do.”)
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Fatbat said:
(old man voice) When we were kids we ate at the table, we said please and thank you, we didn't chew with out mouths open or whine about shit, and we sat at the table until we were excused. When eating at a restaurant we only got up to either use the washroom or leave the premises and we sat there politely until mom and dad were done their coffees as boring as that might have been.(/old man voice)
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My personal theory on this is that because most British families don't eat together at home (they generally eat separately, on their laps, in front of the TV), their kids have no fucking idea how to behave in restaurants.

Ours is 1.5 years old, and every time she goes to restaurants (which is about once a week), I get people coming up to me saying how well behaved she is.
The reason is cos we eat at home together as a rule, so she knows the routine.

You can teach very young children how to behave, but it takes a lot of attention and patience. When I was training my kid to use stairs properly and not play on them, I had to say the same thing over 100 times in a row until she understood what I wanted her to do. You can't get mad with them at that age (she was 1), because they don't understand they're doing something wrong. You just need to persevere. It would be a lot easier sometimes to just say fuck it and let her do what she wants, or put in stair gates, but that way she wouldn't learn.

(It's remarkably similar to training a puppy. If you give in to them even once during the reinforcement period, you are screwed and have to start again.)

I think the whole "positive parenting" thing is misunderstood. A lot of parents think it means "let the kid to whatever the fuck they want to." Personally, I think that's as bad for the kid's mind as hitting them.

On the other hand - I don't think hitting works either. I was spanked at school, and it made me violent as a child. Whenever the teacher hit me, I would always exact some really nasty, devious revenge on the person who got me into trouble. It sends the message that whoever is physically strongest makes the rules, which isn't a good idea at all.

@Jakestratham - that WSJ article is excellent. I'm appalled by the amount of mothers I know locally who never let their kids do anything that might get them hurt. Their kids are of a similar age to mine, but they are helpless and needy.
 
JakeStratham said:
Today, I know a lot of teachers. They tell me one of their biggest challenges is that parents always side with their kids. If the kid got a "D" in math, the teacher must have done a piss-poor job of teaching, even if the rest of the class did well. If the kid hit another kid, the other kid must have had it coming.

Incompetent parents.

I remember reading a WSJ article a few years back where corporate managers were interviewed about their young hires. A few said they have to reward them just for coming into the office on time. That's what prioritizing a kid's self-esteem over everything else has wrought (a problem my friend calls the "pussification of America" lol). To that point, this is a pretty good read...
Click to expand...

It all mostly comes down to "entitlement" and a backward sense of family values.

Everyone thinks they're entitled to get whatever the fuck they want (from government and whomever else they come in contact with) and they pass it on to their kids.

A great many parents develop an attitude that they're "entitled" to patience from everyone they come in contact with... and if they want to eat a fancy dinner, with their toddler in tow -- it's their right and fuck everyone else.

When it comes to family values, there are a lot of folks who simply won't expand their compassion and caring outside their own household...

... So who gives a crap about the restaraunt owner losing business, or their unhappy patrons that are being driven insane by your screaming kid?

^^They aren't family, so fuck them. I don't particularly like the way my old man raised me, but like others who've posted: I didn't dare cross his skinny little ass when I was a kid. NO WAY!

I raised my brother the same way and he's turned out polite & considerate. My problems aren't your problems, so I'm not going to go out in public and ruin everyone's good time with an unruly kid.
 
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dreamache said:
I don't agree. There's no such thing as unnecessary attention. Babies need help the first year with practically everything, and their "whining" (crying) is pretty much their only means of communication. Can't spoil a baby man ;) Now, if we're talking 2's and 3's, they're able to comprehend more about cause and effect.

Also context needs to be taken into consideration, what is your definition of spoiling? Holding? Nursing? Playing? There's proof that the more a child is engaged, the smarter they become.
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Not a parent here, but I think you should read the "Battle of the Generations" chapter from The Selfish Gene.

Basically the gist of the chapter is that our genes are programmed to do whatever they can to manipulate parents to get as much as they can. It really becomes a manipulation game.

And think about this - A baby that never cries will be more easily evolved out of existence over time. So to a certain extent, the opposite will be true.

The whole book is amazing. A life changer for me... although not an easy read by any means.
 
The last line of the article is the problem: "You wanted them, deal with them."

Kids that are actually WANTED usually have a better upbringing. Parents take care of them every step of the way. It's children that are born out of a broken condom or those that are born from unprotected drunken one-night stands that end up being the problem, 90%+ of the time.
 
So my Dad and I had some lunch over at our local Long John Silvers. Now, when you're done with your meal and leave, there's a bell on the way out. The purpose of the bell is to ring it if you were satisfied.

So the manager ('Latino'), had his two little three and four year olds. I felt so bad for the cashier because constantly she's trying to shut them up in the most polite way as possible, and she was about to blow when they started ringing the damn bell.

Meanwhile, the happy manager just kept smiling at how his kids were 'enjoying' themselves.
 
Mr Baconator said:
So my Dad and I had some lunch over at our local Long John Silvers. Now, when you're done with your meal and leave, there's a bell on the way out. The purpose of the bell is to ring it if you were satisfied.

So the manager ('Latino'), had his two little three and four year olds. I felt so bad for the cashier because constantly she's trying to shut them up in the most polite way as possible, and she was about to blow when they started ringing the damn bell.

Meanwhile, the happy manager just kept smiling at how his kids were 'enjoying' themselves.
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The restaurant manager has his kids at work? WTF is wrong with people?
 
Years ago, I was in a Diedrich Coffee. I was sitting by myself at one of the tables, stunned at the behavior displayed by this little girl (about 5 yrs. old). She was dancing throughout the facility, purposefully tipping over chairs. This went on for about 10 minutes (felt like an eternity, of course). Her mom was nearby, watching her.

Let me say that again. Her mom was watching her the entire time.

The girl then took off one of her sandals, and chucked it through the air. It bounced off a table, hit the ground, and disappeared. I turned to the mom, who was sitting next to me, and said, "Do you have any idea how annoying your kid is to every person in this place? Look at their faces."

Her reply: "She's just a kid!"

Mom fail.


amateursurgeon hit it on the head with the puppy analogy. Kids are like puppies. They won't know where the boundaries lie until someone shows 'em. If nobody shows them, they won't learn. One day, if they're unlucky enough, they'll stumble upon folks who will show 'em - with a lot less love (and possibly, more blood).
 
If there was a kid behaving like that on my flight I'd kick the shit out of the kid, then the parent
 
Berto said:
Basically the gist of the chapter is that our genes are programmed to do whatever they can to manipulate parents to get as much as they can. It really becomes a manipulation game.
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The important thing to decipher as a parent is knowing whether or not your child is crying vs. crying via a tantrum. Right around 1 year old is when they're considered toddlers, and it's also when throwing tantrums begin. Anything under the age of 1 is usually not a tantrum and it's them trying to communicate to you that something is wrong. Ignoring their crying (less than 1 yr old) because you think they're wired to gain control of you is just bs. A toddler, yes, I agree.. not a baby though.
 
There are a few things true of every child:

1. They will always try to get as much time/attention/love/affection/money/toys as possible. It's human nature. If they can't get it in a positive way (the basis of positive parenting), they will definitely seek it in a negative way.

2. They crave limits, although they will automatically buck against them to test them.

Other posters are right. People can be trained just like dogs and other pets. Children in particular are trainable. This is what good teachers have to do every year with routines and procedures in the classroom and what parents should do at home starting with the toddler years.

If you start training your baby from the beginning about your expectations, your reward system and your punishment system, you'll have done virtually everything you need to do to be able to enjoy your child as he grows up. Sure you'll have to add rules/rewards/punishment as you go, but in general a child who knows you're going to stick to what you say is going to have greater discipline than one who is constantly reaching out for limits, which is what so many children are doing who misbehave.

Take the example of the girl in the coffee shop. She might have been having a great time tipping over chairs, but she probably knew full well that she was driving everyone apeshit crazy. She was probably waiting for her mother to stop her. Silently begging for her mom to care enough to pay attention to her. When her mom didn't she likely chalked another "mom failed me" moment in her little brain.

All of those check marks kids accumulate start popping up around twelve or thirteen. They are glaringly obvious by about fifteen. I work with teenagers every day who have serious love/hate relationships with their parents. These kids are trying to become adults on their own terms, but they have to undo the damage lax or absent parenting has done before they can pull their own shit together to move forward.

It's amazing how well even your most rebellious teenager responds when you give him clear rules that make sense, explain the punishment and offer rewards for doing well - a kind word, praise in front of his peers, simple attention for doing something well instead of being the dumbass everyone assumes he is. The military approaches this in a different way, but with similar results - a clear objective, rules that make sense and the right kinds of rewards transform a lot of misguided kids into respectable adults.

I always tell friends that I am a very strict parent because I work with the product of so much bad parenting. Seeing what parents can do, even well intentioned ones who love the idea of having, playing with and dressing up thier kids but don't know how to raise them properly, is devastating. My boys, mom-willing, will have a toolbox full of everything I can give them to find success on their own terms. And they know how to behave themselves in restaurants and airplanes. :)

Once I get these two boys up and out of the house, I'm going to start collecting new ones and scale my operation up to grand proportions if I can convince my husband to foster little ones.
 
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