Union Gone Wild

ThisWebThing

ThisWebThing

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Aug 23, 2010
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UNION MOB DESTROYS TENT WITH PEOPLE INSIDE

^^^ Tent Union Attack ^^^ (Video)






Michigan Legislature gives final approval to right-to-work limiting unions



School Districts Closed Because Of Excessive Teacher Absences Over Right-to-Work


Only 7% of Detroit Public-School 8th Graders Proficient in Reading


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJHKTVMKddk]Michigan Union Supporters Chant in the Capitol Rotunda - YouTube[/ame]


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8zjnKnLIzM]Mackinac Center on Fox Business: Michigan Unions Defeated - YouTube[/ame]


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzEm9ZnYb3g]Union Intimidation at Michigan Capitol - YouTube[/ame]


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQciLEVHjbo]Unions Fight Right-to-Work In Michigan - YouTube[/ame]


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUT9QxpQgqk]Mackinac Center on Fox Business: Right-to-Work in Michigan - YouTube[/ame]


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wrZAqTgomM]Union Supporter Cuts Up Right-to-Work Supporters' Sign - YouTube[/ame]
 


potentialeight said:
Would someone please give their argument against right-to-work laws? I can't see why anyone would think it's right to fire people for not paying to join a club they don't want to be in.
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From what I've heard the unions are pissed off cause union and non union would be working side by side. The one guy paying his dues and the other reaping the benefits from his counterpart but not contributing. Not sure if that's the whole thing of it or what though.
 
AllBizNiz said:
From what I've heard the unions are pissed off cause union and non union would be working side by side. The one guy paying his dues and the other reaping the benefits from his counterpart but not contributing. Not sure if that's the whole thing of it or what though.
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That, and they claim wages will go down by pointing at states with RTW work laws in the south that have shit wages.
 
Yeah, I get that much, I guess. I just don't like the idea of firing someone just because they don't want to join a union.

As far as the wages going down, it seems like it would follow since unions tend to jack up wages.
 
Non-union members should not have the protections and benefits of the union, I agree with them on that. They negotiated for it, they alone should get that.

But forcing people in certain trades to join the union is bullshit so I'm all for RTW.
 
Unions are labor cartels.

They are a monopoly that tries to increase prices by excluding competition through quasi-political means.

What they do is prevent people from outside the union from competing for union jobs.

No cartel can last if there is competition. Unions are an anachronism.

I have argued a lot about unions with leftists, and in particular left-libertarians (who are almost always weak on economics).
 
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVmKyJXHXRE]Detroit Auto Workers Busted on the Job Drinking Beer & Smoking Pot on Break.flv - YouTube[/ame]
 
guerilla said:
Unions are labor cartels.

They are a monopoly that tries to increase prices by excluding competition through quasi-political means.

What they do is prevent people from outside the union from competing for union jobs.

No cartel can last if there is competition. Unions are an anachronism.

I have argued a lot about unions with leftists, and in particular left-libertarians (who are almost always weak on economics).
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But if Government is a violence monopoly, doesn't it make sense for groups of workers to defend themselves from the banks and government by uniting?

Are you saying workers should just bend over and take it in the butt from the gov, banks and other non productive facets of society whom get to keep most of the resources?
 
greenleaves said:
But if Government is a violence monopoly, doesn't it make sense for groups of workers to defend themselves from the banks and government by uniting?

Are you saying workers should just bend over and take it in the butt from the gov, banks and other non productive facets of society whom get to keep most of the resources?
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In many states (Ohio, Michigan, ect) the unions ARE the government. They effectively control all politicians, laws and rules due to political influence on a local or regional level. I know of many cases here in Ohio where people were killed, politicians paid off due to labor unions.



Case and point : My grandpa was a worker for AEP here in Ohio during the 60s through the late 80s and was a member of the electrical union. At one point, they all striked against AEP and effectively shut down power generation for mid-northern Ohio. AEP called out and tried to get people to cross the strike line. One of the neighbors of my grandpa crossed the line. When he went home that night and put his kids in bed, he found a armed mob of union workers outside his house. They ended up shooting his house up with him, his wife and kids inside. Amazingly no one was hurt, but the house was a wreck.

So , what was the result of the shooting? The police telling the guy "Well , this is what you get for crossing the line" and no more than a police report filed. No judge, police officer or any member of the law would do anything, since they were all involved with the union some how. Had someone in the family been killed from the gunfire, it is EXTREMELY unlikely that anything would have happened.

Case #2 : My dad drove a truck for all the major auto manufacturers during the 80s and 90s as non union trucking.

He NEVER would deliver to a plant during a strike. Why? Because a guy he knows was shot to death by union workers in his semi while trying to deliver to a plant. Result of said shooting? Nothing, police wouldn't go beyond a police report because it was in a heavy-union area.
 
schockergd said:
In many states (Ohio, Michigan, ect) the unions ARE the government. They effectively control all politicians, laws and rules due to political influence. I know of many cases here in Ohio where people were killed, politicians paid off due to labor unions.
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Yeap, I see it all the time. Union leaders telling Federal Reserve shareholders/IRS agents to go fuck off. They also lobby the laws with their huge budgets. Damn them and their super powers. They get like twice their share, no other segment of society gets to keep such a high percentage of social resources with such little contribution to society (except pharma, military industrial complex, banking/finance, government, etc... oh, but never mind them, lets rabble about the unions)
 
greenleaves said:
But if Government is a violence monopoly, doesn't it make sense for groups of workers to defend themselves from the banks and government by uniting?
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The government has been pro-union, and protects unions legally all the time.

If private businesses had government in their pocket, unions would be illegal.

greenleaves said:
Are you saying workers should just bend over and take it in the butt from the gov, banks and other non productive facets of society whom get to keep most of the resources?
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Let's break this down.

Why would workers have to bend over? If anyone is bending them over, isn't it the tax system?

Unions don't fight banks or government. They are empowered by government as political constituencies who get a monopoly in return for voting in blocks.

I don't have a problem with unions if they don't have legal privilege (can't act like a cartel without a monopoly), but in the current system, they have TONS of legal privilege.
 
guerilla said:
Let's break this down.

Why would workers have to bend over? If anyone is bending them over, isn't it the tax system?
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Everyone does. As long as you are part of a world economy priced in dollars backed by oil backed by guns, even if you aren't taxed you are getting fucked by artificial currency inflation. Not to mention economic bubbles this creates. You know this.

guerilla said:
Unions don't fight banks or government.
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No one fights anyone directly, every faction of society is pushing for their own share of power. Whose power they are taking from when they are jostling for their share isn't really a consideration.

Governments do it by force. So businesses adapt by lobbying. Workers adapt by unionizing. I'm not going to argue with you about the necessity of government, but, if government is this evil thing as you say, doesn't it make sense for different factions of society to make the best they can out of the situation and try to maximize their portion of the carving up of social resources?

guerilla said:
They are empowered by government as political constituencies who get a monopoly in return for voting in blocks.
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So? If society is already 'corrupted' as you put it, with government, they why wouldn't a faction of the population unite to improve their odds against the machine?

guerilla said:
I don't have a problem with unions if they don't have legal privilege (can't act like a cartel without a monopoly), but in the current system, they have TONS of legal privilege.
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Ok. But again, what if we don't live in a world of perfect theory.

What if we live in a world where banking and political figures have united to take most of societies resources without contributing to society. What if we lived in a world where businesses lobbied to use the government violence monopoly in their favor? Would it then make sense that workers unite and use the gov violence in their favor too?


I'm not saying in a perfect world unions should exist. I'm talking about this world. And I'm not even advocating here in favor of unions, just adding up the in-congruent arguments that anarchists use against Unions, but aren't so quick to use against, say, businesses doing tax tricks (which they get away with by bribing, errr, I mean lobbying the violence monopoly)
 
greenleaves said:
So? If society is already 'corrupted' as you put it, with government, they why wouldn't a faction of the population unite to improve their odds against the machine?
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But that's not what unions do.

greenleaves said:
Would it then make sense that workers unite and use the gov violence in their favor too?
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Sure, that's why I reject political action. It's just fighting over the Ring of Sauron.

greenleaves said:
Ok. But again, what if we don't live in a world of perfect theory.
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No offense, but I hate this approach. I don't argue theory, I try to argue facts and logic.

greenleaves said:
What if we live in a world where banking and political figures have united to take most of societies resources without contributing to society. What if we lived in a world where businesses lobbied to use the government violence monopoly in their favor? Would it then make sense that workers unite and use the gov violence in their favor too?
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Sure.

greenleaves said:
And I'm not even advocating here in favor of unions, just adding up the in-congruent arguments that anarchists use against Unions, but aren't so quick to use against, say, businesses doing tax tricks (which they get away with by bribing, errr, I mean lobbying the violence monopoly)
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You have anarchists confused with Republicans.

Also, everyone should be for tax tricks. Taxation is theft. There is no "fair" level of taxation.
 
guerilla said:
Originally Posted by greenleaves
What if we live in a world where banking and political figures have united to take most of societies resources without contributing to society. What if we lived in a world where businesses lobbied to use the government violence monopoly in their favor? Would it then make sense that workers unite and use the gov violence in their favor too?



Sure.
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You just agree with my only point. Everything else is a logical extention of this. Because we do live in such a world. And I agree, it is all fighting over the ring of sauron. But... that is what we have to live with, we either adapt or die. We can't change the system, it will only go down under the weight of it's own bull shit (like rome)
 
The whole point of Right To Work legislation (which the Governor will sign into law here tomorrow), is not to disband unions, but to break their monopoly on labor. They are free to exist, but they have to compete with non-union workers or potentially other unions that may form.

I don't see anything wrong with unions in this context, I just don't support the power they have in non-RTW states. Now that they have to compete for members here in Michigan they will have to get their shit together finally, or die out.

By the way, it's a pretty big fucking deal when the home of the union passes Right To Work legislation. UAW world headquarters are here in Detroit for fucks sake. Michigan becoming a RTW state is a death knell for the UAW and other useless unions. Some of the stronger trade unions will still do fine though.

Also - two bills were passed, one for private unions and one for public unions. The only exemptions if I read it right is police and fire.
 
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