Will Capitalism DIE? Paradise or Oblivion [Jacques Fresco]

[than_west]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KphWsnhZ4Ag]Paradise or Oblivion (30 language subtitles) - YouTube[/ame]

Interesting movie with cool technology ideas: Released on Mar 30, 2012 with nearly 500,000 views as of June 11, 2012

After governments worldwide collapse from excess debt, do you think society could embrace this type of structure?

I like the analogy he uses about the brain competing with other organs. Your body needs to work together to succeed. Maybe competing on the same team could be managed and achieve a more optimal outcome.

Before jumping to a quick conclusion, think of this as a science problem. Can science and technology improve society and maximize utility?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVOPkGAtt48]Jacque Fresco on Larry King (1974) (summary) - YouTube[/ame]
Larry King interview

 

[Jeeta]

We don't currently have capitalism, every day I dream of real capitalism.

 

[than_west]

Yeah it was a sensational title to grab you but I'm serious in that I think this is a practical concept to manage resources.

We could easily build a prototype/model city and see how well human innovation worked if humans were free to do what they wanted. Many functions of society can be automated to free humanity from corruption and manipulating others for resources.

Of course, capitalism works and is the best model so far but that doesn't mean that technology can't change the optimal outcome.

 

[Jeeta]

Yeah it was a sensational title to grab you but I'm serious in that I think this is a practical concept to manage resources.

We could easily build a prototype/model city and see how well human innovation worked if humans were free to do what they wanted. Many functions of society can be automated to free humanity from corruption and manipulating others for resources.

Of course, capitalism works and is the best model so far but that doesn't mean that technology can't change the optimal outcome.

I've studied Jacques Frasco's materials before, seen most of his videos, read his website etc. But most of the things he talks about are totally unrealistic. The society he dreams about isn't possible yet, because we don't currently have the technology to implement it. A.I. is still very much in its infancy, will that change in the next 100 years? Sure, it's possible, everyday we're making progress. But as it stands, we don't have the machines intelligent enough to do all the production for us.

The second area his ideas fall down at, is that he just doesn't account for human behavior, this guy simply thinks all the worlds problems can be solved by bringing about his pipe line dream. Humans are materialistic, you'll never get rid of that it's part of human nature. Like I said in a previous post, humans are inherently extremely territorial creatures. We also have unique personalities, options and ideas which would totally clash with this guys so called vision of the future.

Personally I think the guy is slightly delusional, and has wasted his life away on a pointless project, but that's just my opinion.

 

[than_west]

I've studied Jacques Frasco's materials before, seen most of his videos, read his website etc. But most of the things he talks about are totally unrealistic. The society he dreams about isn't possible yet, because we don't currently have the technology to implement it. A.I. is still very much in its infancy, will that change in the next 100 years? Sure, it's possible, everyday we're making progress. But as it stands, we don't have the machines intelligent enough to do all the production for us.

The second area his ideas fall down at, is that he just doesn't account for human behavior, this guy simply thinks all the worlds problems can be solved by bringing about his pipe line dream. Humans are materialistic, you'll never get rid of that it's part of human nature. Like I said in a previous post, humans are inherently extremely territorial creatures. We also have unique personalities, options and ideas which would totally clash with this guys so called vision of the future.

Personally I think the guy is slightly delusional, and has wasted his life away on a pointless project, but that's just my opinion.

People who just state problems instead of proposing solutions to problems aren't really helping much. It's easy to complain. It's also doesn't move things forward. I suggest you propose alternatives. He stated one approach. I think there are many elements that are better than our current system.

This can be scaled into one model city and there are currently people seeking to do just this like blueseed.co

 

[hehejo]

People who just state problems instead of proposing solutions to problems aren't really helping much. It's easy to complain. It's also doesn't move things forward. I suggest you propose alternatives.

Capitalism.

 

[than_west]

Capitalism.

See above
"Of course, capitalism works and is the best model so far but that doesn't mean that technology can't change the optimal outcome."

 

[hehejo]

See above
"Of course, capitalism works and is the best model so far but that doesn't mean that technology can't change the optimal outcome."

What makes you think better technology can change the outcome?

If you give incentive to sitting around and doing nothing productive, productivity and progress of a society will decrease over time and might even come to a halt.

 

[than_west]

What makes you think better technology can change the outcome?

If you give incentive to sitting around and doing nothing productive, productivity and progress of a society will decrease over time and might even come to a halt.

With technology, you can help automate a lot of work to reduce scarcity

http://www.thenzp.com/motivation_incentive_creativity.pdf Most of the common objections have lots of reasonable answers online.

 

[than_west]

google around for FAQs

....

 

[Jeeta]

People who just state problems instead of proposing solutions to problems aren't really helping much. It's easy to complain. It's also doesn't move things forward. I suggest you propose alternatives. He stated one approach. I think there are many elements that are better than our current system.

This can be scaled into one model city and there are currently people seeking to do just this like blueseed.co

The old man doesn't know what he's talking about. People have killed each other for tens of thousands of years, have fought with each other when there was an abundance of everything. Go meat some bush men, they don't work off monetary systems yet they still feel the need to fight other tribes.

This guy is a Nazi, because government would need to be there to enforce rules on what people can and can't do, what can be produced and how etc. This would turn into fascism, because everything is always owned by someone and whoever controls everything practically owns everything.

I suppose Mr Fresco would nominate himself to be the governing body of it all. This guy is nothing but a crazed power junky, and created bullshit videos to pray on those who are after hope in their lives.

 

[than_west]

The old man doesn't know what he's talking about. People have killed each other for tens of thousands of years, have fought with each other when there was an abundance of everything. Go meat some bush men, they don't work off monetary systems yet they still feel the need to fight other tribes.

This guy is a Nazi, because government would need to be there to enforce rules on what people can and can't do, what can be produced and how etc. This would turn into fascism, because everything is always owned by someone and whoever controls everything practically owns everything.

I suppose Mr Fresco would nominate himself to be the governing body of it all. This guy is nothing but a crazed power junky, and created bullshit videos to pray on those who are after hope in their lives.

You're still talking about problems and casting a beautiful designer's work in one huge net of evil. The guy had beautiful designs of cars back in the 60s when cars had boring rectangular prism shapes.

Anyone can talk about problems. It takes a wiser man to come up with solutions. This can be a hybrid model and work under capitalism and people can buy in to the system, similar to purchasing a condo with maintenance fees to cover the lobby, concierge...

 

[hehejo]

With technology, you can help automate a lot of work to reduce scarcity

http://www.thenzp.com/motivation_incentive_creativity.pdf Most of the common objections have lots of reasonable answers online.

That is not what I would call reasonable.

Just because there were a few individuals that did not have today's distractions available to them that invented just because they enjoyed it does not mean that this applies to everyone.

I know I would be playing computer games and/or party the whole day if there was no incentive (money) to do otherwise.

 

[hehejo]

Anyone can talk about problems. It takes a wiser man to come up with solutions.

First you have to get to the source of those problems before you try to come up with a solution.

It all boils down to really basic problems like giving the wrong incentives.

Free market capitalism would solve most of your perceived problems I am sure. The solution is there. Let's spend our time and energy implementing that instead of proposing new things that violate the very basics as much or even worse than the current situation.

 

[than_west]

Here's why:

I know for certain many people would do something far more productive than sell useless junk on the internet and exploit others with deceptive advertising if they had their basic needs taken care of. hehejo you keep thinking of "but I'd need money" - well, what if technology enabled you to get everything you wanted without the use of money

Honesty in business is almost an oxymoron. We have people exploiting countries by taking them into massive debt. It's definitely not working.

We have billions of people who are not providing the maximum benefit to society but only in fake value based on deception.

I'm saying let's take care of basic needs and enough people will pursue science and discovery for fun.

How many people actually CREATE things useful for advancing society?

By simply changing the rules of the game, and having a similar system of laws, I think it's possible.

 

[SkyFire]

Free market capitalism would solve most of your perceived problems I am sure. The solution is there.

Capitalism is not a solution, it's a framework to control the masses and provide the illusion of equality and availability of upward mobility.

The reality is JF is proposing a complete shift away from possession as a motivator for society.

As to the bushmen example above, it's still about possession. It's always about possession.

Advanced tech can provide the availability of anything everyone requires, and there within allow society to refocus from need/want to loftier pursuits.

 

[Jeeta]

You're still talking about problems and casting a beautiful designer's work in one huge net of evil. The guy had beautiful designs of cars back in the 60s when cars had boring rectangular prism shapes.

Anyone can talk about problems. It takes a wiser man to come up with solutions. This can be a hybrid model and work under capitalism and people can buy in to the system, similar to purchasing a condo with maintenance fees to cover the lobby, concierge...

Just because the guys a great designer doesn't mean he doesn't have a self fulfilling agenda. This guy basically wants a world ran under his command, he is a mad man. The scary part is these sheeple who get taken in by his videos would quite happily give up all their freedoms and powers to live under his utopian regime.

He markets very cleverly to hook the fish, but I bet the real 'system' would be extremely different to the day dream he's marketing. You're going to have one guy who says screw everybody else I'll take all the food and stuff here for myself, right there the system has just failed.

One person likes a certain something and decided to sneak as much of it home for himself, again the system has just failed and greed has just entered the equation again.

Why should everybody have equal access to something, you'll have someone doing a risky job trying to do his bit for the system, and then you'll get a lazy slob doing nothing. This guy will say fuck this shit I'm no longer risking my life for this lazy phaggot of a slob, and then again the system falls part as nobody will do the risky or hard jobs as there's absolutely no incentive to.

 

[than_west]

Jeeta, you're talking about something completely off course. You have a conspiracy theory about his motives. Then you missed everything I said above that already addressed some of your issues. I could tell you 100s of things I don't like about both systems by drawing wild what if scenarios. Waste of time.

Also, you still haven't made one suggestion. Moving on.

It reminds me of how I first reacted so I don't blame you.

 

[hehejo]

Here's why:

I know for certain many people would do something far more productive than sell useless junk on the internet and exploit others with deceptive advertising if they had their basic needs taken care of.

Advertising connects buyers with sellers. Nothing wrong with that. I think most people even on wickedfire do honest business. Maybe I'm wrong, who knows.

hehejo you keep thinking of "but I'd need money" - well, what if technology enabled you to get everything you wanted without the use of money

I already covered that, if I had everything I wanted I would play video games and party.

You must understand that capitalism works because people want to increase leisure time. Not many people work for works sake.

If you take that incentive of leisure time away by giving it to everyone for free, then you lose a lot of productivity.

Even if the basics needs are covered by some miracle machines, imagine if you had those machines and the productivity of the people at the same time. Living standards would be higher.

Honesty in business is almost an oxymoron. We have people exploiting countries by taking them into massive debt. It's definitely not working.

Seriously? Honesty is one of the most important things in business. First thing my uncle taught me is to keep my word at all costs when doing business and he is really successful. Just because the current system gives incentive to do otherwise in certain areas (think lobbying etc), does not mean that being dishonest is good for business.

If you are dishonest word will spread quickly.

Remember that we don't have a capitalistic system at the moment, so pointing out what's wrong with the current system does not disprove free market capitalism.

We have billions of people who are not providing the maximum benefit to society but only in fake value based on deception.

Who decides what society wants? You?
People vote with their money. If they want to buy something, it has value to them. It might not be what you think is the right thing, but that is for each own to choose.

I'm saying let's take care of basic needs and enough people will pursue science and discovery for fun.

"Enough"? I am not saying that nobody will do that, but more people will in a free market capitalism just because the incentives are there.

How many people actually CREATE things useful for advancing society?

Almost everyone who is making profit. Otherwise nobody would buy.

By simply changing the rules of the game, and having a similar system of laws, I think it's possible.

If you are that certain, try it out. Have a look at seasteading.


This is taking to much time, I am out for now...

 

[avail]

Just because the guys a great designer doesn't mean he doesn't have a self fulfilling agenda. This guy basically wants a world ran under his command, he is a mad man. The scary part is these sheeple who get taken in by his videos would quite happily give up all their freedoms and powers to live under his utopian regime.

He markets very cleverly to hook the fish, but I bet the real 'system' would be extremely different to the day dream he's marketing. You're going to have one guy who says screw everybody else I'll take all the food and stuff here for myself, right there the system has just failed.

One person likes a certain something and decided to sneak as much of it home for himself, again the system has just failed and greed has just entered the equation again.

Why should everybody have equal access to something, you'll have someone doing a risky job trying to do his bit for the system, and then you'll get a lazy slob doing nothing. This guy will say fuck this shit I'm no longer risking my life for this lazy phaggot of a slob, and then again the system falls part as nobody will do the risky or hard jobs as there's absolutely no incentive to.

Agree with every word.