You like Muslims? Guess what happens when the cult's population grows?

guerilla said:
I can't believe I am posting to this thread again.


Which was 30 years ago. Which is what I said. Unless you want to argue that Iran was more liberal in 1980 than today. Which would make you wrong.


This is collectivism. There are millions of people in Iran. They have different political parties. They have different ages, sexes, and professions. Some aren't even muslim. Just because they live in an arbitrary geographic area, that doesn't mean they are a collective consciousness.

Until you/we see them as individuals, there is no hope of achieving any kind of peace. The people have never been synonymous with the government or religious elites. To think that Ahmadinejad speaks for every Iranian, or Bin Laden for every muslim, or some nutter cleric who says radical stuff speaks for every mosque, is the same as saying that every one of your politicians speaks for you. That whatever they say, you agree with unconditionally.

C'mon.


You haven't proven that. And I will tell you why you are wrong. There are more women in universities in these countries, there are more women in politics, there are more women working outside the home. There are generally smaller families, and there is much more freedom of information, and contact with the outside world.

I said it before. If you only see things in a post 9/11 context, you are missing the massive advances in the 3rd world on all sorts of fronts. Sure, things are far from ideal, and there will be steps backward. But to not appreciate how relatively toothless Islam has become as the world has become less tribal, well that misses the whole point.

Everyday, people get their panties in a knot about something. Years ago, it was ending nuclear proliferation. The old nukes are out there, some unaccounted for, no one cares. Because now everyone is obsessed with terrorism, or islamism or the environment. Prior to that, it was communism. 25 or 30 years from now, it will be something else. As a species, we run around like chickens with our heads cut off over every potential negative outcome, and our politicians and religious leaders play us like a banjo by toying with our lizard brain instincts.

50 years ago, communism was seen as unassailable. Academics all over the west insisted that it was only a matter of time until communism took over the entire world, freedom would be lost, and we would all be under tyranny (progressive academics of course think it is a good idea to lose liberty, that's why they are shot in the back of the head at the end of every revolution, communists regard such true believers as "useful idiots").

The austrian economists, of whom I am an adherent basically said, "let's look at this rationally. economically, communism cannot work. it has inherent fundamental contradictions. there is no need to fight in vietnam. there is no need to direct private wealth into building a massive war machine. that final battle doesn't have to come. these guys will collapse on their own."

Sure enough, one day the Soviet Union was here, and people were terrified of it, the next day, the Soviet Union was dissolved. Gone, into the pages of history.

The red menace was defeated without a single bullet being fired.

That's the same way I look at the environment. That's the way I look at Islamism.

This is not the first time people have been obsessed with being overrun by a fanatical opposing force that is violent and tyrannical. And yet, the world, despite the enormously anti-liberty focus of debt-ridden western democratic governments, is freer and more prosperous than any other time before.

That doesn't mean we should ignore threats to our well being, but if we want to get to the next level of social organization, we'll have to stop being scared of every shadow and every bump in the night, turn the lights on, and get back to improving our conditions. Focus on what is real, and what matters and what is consistent with our goals.

As mentioned previous, make money. It's like when you leave your house. You lock the door. Whether it is night or day, sun, wind, rain or snow, it is always a good idea to lock your door.

And since I doubt any genuine insight into threat level mohammed will be shared in a WF STS thread, it's a good practice to get back to work, make society at large wealthier and more peaceful, because that is something each of us can do in the face of these monstrous problems, real or imagined.

I'll read your response, but I am out. Too much money to be made today. Peace.
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hahah you got sucked in! I try to stay out of the political threads for these reasons, but the relgious ones are just to juicy to resist!!
 
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Making Money said:
Listen Dispel, im educating you about a country that I know a lot about. You believe anything you read which is the reason of your lack of knowledge. Listen, my entire family lives in Iran, I only have my parents, brother and sister in America. The country does not stone people anymore, regardless of what you hear or read alright. When I went to Iran I asked all of my relatives about this and they all felt humiliated that the media portrays our country like this. Im not saying the country is perfect, it's not. Almost everyone wants the country to go back the way it was in the 70's. And do you even know why Iran hates America so much? I forgot which year it was but a king by the name of Mossadeg (excuse my spelling if incorrect) was elected but didnt have to much interest in doing oil trade with America, so america sent troops to Mossadeg's front door and killed him in front of his family. And another very religious king got put in place and continued the islamic revolution. Now put yourself in a perspective of someone living in Iran. Now don't get me wrong, I love America to death, especially southern cali, I would never move anywhere else. But at the end of the day you and everyone else have all of their facts wrong about Iran, the people and the culture.
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Just because you are Iranian does not mean you know all about Iran. I'm Luxembourgian, but I don't know all too much about Luxembourg, just what I learn through word-of-mouth and media sources. Since your parents are from California, I will assume that you were born in California, or at least the United States.

The information that we receive about our home countries are biased one way or another. There's nothing we can really do to stop that. People have their own opinions, and those opinions affect the way that they perceive and repeat information back to you.

People are still being stoned to death in Iran. These sources wouldn't be completely made up.
 
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Dispel said:
Muslims must be criticised until they learn to criticize themselves - as long as thats not possible the whole world suffers. Islam must be criticized until it goes through a Reformation like Christianity did, no real 'moderate', let alone tolerant, Islam is possible until that happens.
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Muhammed was a child rapist.
 
LogicFlux said:
Muhammed was a child rapist.
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Well, they didn't really have the concept of pedophilia back then, it was A-OK. And he married her (Aisha) first and as a wife cant say no technically it wasn't rape? Yeah.
Hell, noone loved sodomizing young boys as much as the Greeks did. Ok, maybe the Romans..

I love the Muslim argument that girls develop faster in the hot Arabian climate, so they're pretty much women and good to go by 9.. They sure jump through some bizarre hoops to explain away all the idiocy in the Koran and the Hadiths etc.
 
ricdes said:
IMO the "But they dont allow it either!" excuse doesn't count. We are tolerant towards each other and I don't really care what religion each one of us believes in. Do we really want to turn ourselves into the christian version of saudi arabia by telling other cultures what they can and cannot do? I'd rather have all imigrants pass through a 1-2 year course in german and western culture before they'd get permanent resident passes. The problem in Europe is the lack of integration of eastern imigrants, not their religion).

BTW: Minarets here in Switzerland: 4. Muslims here: 300-400k estimated. Any other religion/atheists:6+ Million. Minarets used for prayers: 0.
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Yeah, I dont really support the 'they dont allow it either!" argument.. No point in falling down to their level, tolerance is one of the traits undepinning western civilisation, as long it does not become tolerance of the intolerant. or worst still - appeasement in the face of hostility.

I think Hirsi Ali generally gets things right though:
Swiss ban on minarets was a vote for tolerance and inclusion / The Christian Science Monitor - CSMonitor.com

There are two ways to interpret the vote. First, as a rejection of political Islam, not a rejection of Muslims. In this sense it was a vote for tolerance and inclusion, which political Islam rejects. Second, the vote was a revelation of the big gap between how the Swiss people and the Swiss elite judge political Islam.

In the battle of ideas, symbols are important.

What if the Swiss voters were asked in a referendum to ban the building of an equilateral cross with its arms bent at right angles as a symbol of the belief of a small minority? Or imagine a referendum on building towers topped with a hammer and sickle – another symbol dear to the hearts of a very small minority in Switzerland.

Political ideas have symbols: A swastika, a hammer and sickle, a minaret, a crescent with a star in the middle (usually on top of a minaret) all represent a collectivist political theory of supremacy by one group over all others.

On controversial issues, the Swiss listen to debate, read newspapers, and otherwise investigate when they make up their minds for a vote.

What Europeans are finding out about Islam as they investigate is that it is more than just a religion. Islam offers not only a spiritual framework for dealing with such human questions as birth, death, and what ought to come after this world; it prescribes a way of life.

Islam is an idea about how society should be organized: the individual's relationship to the state; the relationship between men and women; rules for the interaction between believers and unbelievers; how to enforce such rules; and why a government under Islam is better than a government founded on other ideas. These political ideas of Islam have their symbols: the minaret, the crescent; the head scarf, and the sword.

The minaret is a symbol of Islamist supremacy, a token of domination that came to symbolize Islamic conquest. It was introduced decades after the founding of Islam.

In Europe, as in other places in the world where Muslims settle, the places of worship are simple at first. All that a Muslim needs to fulfill the obligation of prayer is a compass to indicate the direction of Mecca, water for ablution, a clean prayer mat, and a way of telling the time so as to pray five times a day in the allocated period.

The construction of large mosques with extremely tall towers that cost millions of dollars to erect are considered only after the demography of Muslims becomes significant.

The mosque evolves from a prayer house to a political center.

Imams can then preach a message of self-segregation and a bold rejection of the ways of the non-Muslims.

Men and women are separated; gays, apostates and Jews are openly condemned; and believers organize around political goals that call for the introduction of forms of sharia (Islamic) law, starting with family law.

This is the trend we have seen in Europe, and also in other countries where Muslims have settled. None of those Western academics, diplomats, and politicians who condemn the Swiss vote to ban the minaret address, let alone dispute, these facts.
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i am laughing out loud, for one simple reason, as an online marketer, if i wanted to promote an ideology, a vision , a story or whatever and make a difference, I'd rather use social media, participating in a thread like this is absolutely pointless, there is no way on earth any one here is going to change the other guy's point of view, and it just gets worst with the participation of some wannabe intellectuals parroting propaganda they heard on fox news.

And guess what, i don't care on which side you are, there are no spectators to educate either, except maybe a few members watching just for the entertainment value of it.Anyone taking this thread seriously is failing for not learning from his own job, wanna promote a religion, an idea or even your HATRED ? get out of here and go create a Youtube video and drive 3 million visitors to it, here you are just barking at each others.

seriously this thread is pointless.
 
let me just add that i am not against constructive discussions, this thread however is not a constructive discussion by any stretch of the English language.
 
It's shooting the shit forum. What do you expect? People post boobs, become armchair philosophers and let off steam. If you're trying to make sense of it maybe the people in this thread are not the prob. :)
 
ricdes said:
They should've banned these:
afghan-women-vote.jpg


and not minarets. (yes, in Paris there are quite a few women walking around like this and its comparable to having you wear a black skimask anywhere you go. Its just frightening bc any criminal could hide underneath one of these and you'd never know who actually did cause the trouble)
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Tolerance FTW.
They wear what they want. We wear what we want.
Live and let live.
 
Meh, you lot are far too uptight about this whole race / religion thing.

We have a much better plan - we invite them over here, we get them nice and comfortable, then we corrupt their young with our alcohol and casual sex fuelled culture. Finally, we pick the hot muslim girls and interbreed with them. Bahahaha.

A girl's hotness is generally in direct proportion to how much her sexuality is restrained by her culture. Catholic girls have that reputation for a reason. Muslims are off the scale. Allahu Akbar when it comes to teh poontang
 
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