Talk about airing it all out. Thanks for your feedback.

boatBurner

boatBurner

shutup, crime!
Feb 24, 2012
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LOL @ getting life advice from our wickedfire community.

And still, here we are.

(No really, I'm about to ask for your input. If you DGAF about peasant problems, get back to work. Otherwise, chime in. Why not?)

I've got a big decision to make. I'm 25, married with four kids, American, only a few months left in the Marine Corps. What I decide to do next will determine the following twenty years of our lives. As such, it has been a great deal of stress for me lately.

Facts worth noting:
1. I will get $1,400/mo in addition to paid tuition for going back to school. I intend to do this beginning January 2013. Computer science, software route.
2. I started freelancing as a web designer back in May. Since then, I've made around $3,000 from miscellaneous client work, including a monthly recurrence of $100.
3. Humana offers health insurance to discharged veterans at a family rate of $2,500/quarter.
4. If I re-enlisted into the active reserve, I would only be required to attend one weekend a month of training. I would earn ~$300/mo and be eligible for military health coverage at a family rate of $400/mo. The possibility of being activated and deployed exists, and is not uncommon.
5. I have four years of retail banking experience, 2.5 of which as a personal banker.
6. We have a little over $10,000 in savings.
7. My experience with IM includes a bunch of recent local lead generating sites that have just started to rank, but I have not made any money from them. I threw in the towel at creating a military wives' community with my wife (see this thread for info). We are now documenting her weightloss transformation in hopes of generating interest.
8. I want to create enough passive income so that I can start to work on a long-term business.

Here are my options:
1. Go to school, get a full-time job, and do web-design/client work while building a lead generating business.
2. Go to school, get a part-time job, and do web-design/client work while building a lead generating business.
3. Go to school, re-enlist as a reservist, get a part-time job, do web-design/client work while building a lead generating business.
4. Full-time job, re-enlist as a reservist, do web-design/client work while building lead generating business.
5. Go to school, do web design/client work while building a lead generating business, pimp out my know-how on WickedFire for personal assistant duties.
6. Invest our $10,000 savings into lead generation. Cross fingers, load gun.
7. Take out a business loan, make it rain, use what's left to build a lead generation empire. Cross fingers, load gun.

The combination of choices can go on and on, but you get the idea. The apparent thing is that I'll have to do multiple (and seemingly impossible) variations of shit to make this work. I'm resilient, and family-time will have to suffer, but as long as I'm breathing, I'll make money (I'll work 3 fast food gigs if I have to). For the former, I've got life insurance.

I didn't make this into a poll thread because I didn't want it attached to the poll stigma. Plus, I'm kind of hoping for some meaningful discussion. Thanks in advance.
 


I don't really know whats best for you, as no one can really give you a great answer based off 500+ words.

What I will say though... Is that as a computer science major I'm in demand even in a shitty economy.

The dotcom bubble burst and everyone changed their major in '99 so now there are a lot of programmer jobs and not a lot of programmers.

The downside is that programming is pretty easy to outsource but there will always be programming jobs that require native programmers... I'd still get my degree in CS.
 
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boatBurner said:
Here are my options:
1. Go to school, get a full-time job, and do web-design/client work while building a lead generating business.
2. Go to school, get a part-time job, and do web-design/client work while building a lead generating business.
Click to expand...

This. Number 2. if you can handle the load.
 
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Phew, looks like you have your hands full buddy. I wish I could recommend something but unfortunately I simply don't have enough info to do so. Not many people make it in IM, but that doesn't mean you won't.

You alone know what your potential is, if you really have it in you to succeed in this market. Either way I wish you luck. I'll go ahead and put in a very strong negative vote for #6. Do not gamble with your savings. And trust me, if you don't already know the conversion metrics of a campaign...you're gambling.
 
That's a really personal decision. Here's my thoughts...

I'm a little older than you but have no wife and kids, so I'll keep that in mind. If you REALLY want to build a business, here's what I'd do.

1. GTFO of the Marines. If you go reserves most likely you will be deployed, if you get anywhere in business you'll have to put it on hold, you'll be ripped away from your family. If nothing else it's bad for business. I have zero regrets about getting out of the AF and I was seriously considering reenlisting at the time.

2. My personal experience with school is it's good for job training and getting laid. If you go just study shit you're interested in. Fuck a degree (no one cares unless you're an employee) and don't let it distract you from building a business. I have a lot of college under my belt. It taught me absolutely nothing that helps with what I do today. Starting a business takes a full-time commitment and my personal view is school will slow you down.

3. Don't gamble with your savings. Use that as a safety net.

4. Don't work for other people. It makes no sense if you want to start a business, unless you're working for a related business and can learn from them.

5. You want to start a business? Start one. Do local lead-gen/web design/whatever at first. Don't half-ass it. Get a marketing strategy in place. Get a somewhat predictable source of customers and income. Freelancing is the fastest way to start working for yourself.

6. Over time, start designing your business so that it still supports you without relying on you to do all of the work. When it's a reliable and relatively hands free income stream, look into new ways to invest/build up.

My advice here is all assuming that you want to build a business. Not "trying" or "thinking about" building a business. Doing it.

The best thing you'll walk away from the military with is self-discipline and the motivation to make shit happen for yourself. Don't lose those. Treat business like a mission, do what it takes to make it happen.
 
Scott's advice is sound (his posts are always worth reading).

I'll add a 7th point: cut the time you spend on WF. Whenever I avoid this place, my productivity goes through the roof. Productivity is going to be critical for you given everything going on in your life.

Side note: good for you for not starting a poll.
 
I disagree with Scott on a few points. (Not trying to be contrarian here; but the guy wants to do well by his family, and I feel he deserves some thoughts from both sides.)

Starting a biz is not easy. Failure rate of 90%+. You already (thread) tried and failed. Actually miserably. (Not cutting you down, but let's deal with facts.) The 3k (in total?) since May isn't great money, obviously.

What's your goal? Money wise? It sounds like work ethic isn't an issue.

Let's start there.
 
JakeStratham said:
Scott's advice is sound (his posts are always worth reading).

I'll add a 7th point: cut the time you spend on WF. Whenever I avoid this place, my productivity goes through the roof. Productivity is going to be critical for you given everything going on in your life.

Side note: good for you for not starting a poll.
Click to expand...

This. Shooting the Shit has been taking up my time for quite a while now, when I could be doing work.
 
boatBurner said:
1. Go to school, get a full-time job, and do web-design/client work while building a lead generating business.
Click to expand...

This is the option you need to take. I know you probably hate to hear that, but you really need to do it so you can take care of your family. SOmething you may not have considered is that a full time job will give you a monthly BUDGET for building your business.

Learn all the good marketing and sales stuff at night after work. At night put 2 hours per day into learning the marketing stuff. Read books for 20% of the time and actually build sites/try to land clients for the other 80%. 2 hours per day of real productivity is actually quite substantial.

Marketing is something you only start to understand from real life experience you get from your projects. It takes time to get that real life experience. Don't quit your job until you get it and then quit once you're ready.
 
Thanks to everyone who took time to read this thread. I'm a bit surprised, because it looked like a wall of text. While you can't make a decision for another man's life, it certainly gives me further perspective by getting differing opinions. I did sum up the situation as best I could, with the facts and little fluff, to get the most informed opinions.

ericchristopher said:
Starting a biz is not easy. Failure rate of 90%+. You already (thread) tried and failed. Actually miserably. (Not cutting you down, but let's deal with facts.) The 3k (in total?) since May isn't great money, obviously.

What's your goal? Money wise? It sounds like work ethic isn't an issue.

Let's start there.
Click to expand...

I do want to mention I got home from my 2nd deployment in April, already with the idea, and made it happen by May, acquiring my first long-term client and a bunch of oDesk-ish oddjobs (not actually from oDesk). Web design + lead generation projects + military spouse community (at the time) + military hours = maxed out workload. I don't look at the web design thing as a success, nor a failure. Instead, I consider it more of a validation point. It could work, imo, with more allotted man hours.

Goals with my money: In order to afford our lifestyle (including modest savings goals) I need to bring in between $5-6k/mo.

- $1,400/mo. from G.I. Bill during school semesters.
- Part-time job could net me ~$1,200

Best case scenario, I need to cover the gap for the $4,600/mo.

1. Renting lead generation sites = $??? ($4-600/mo.?)
2. Wife loses 50-60lbs, documented, garners a following = fat women wanting to know the secret from a real housewife who has been there = converting offers = $???.
3. Client work outsourced almost entirely by Indians and wickedfire members = $???.

Am I completely delusional to put faith into any of those ideas?
 
boatBurner said:
1. Renting lead generation sites = $??? ($4-600/mo.?)

2. Wife loses 50-60lbs, documented, garners a following = fat women wanting to know the secret from a real housewife who has been there = converting offers = $???.
3. Client work outsourced almost entirely by Indians and wickedfire members = $???.

Am I completely delusional to put faith into any of those ideas?
Click to expand...

I think so. That's not really a business plan - and at this point they are just ideas. Not even very good ideas either.

Once you get a job, you will thank me later because you will actually have some CAPITAL coming in from your day job and you can then calculate a monthly BUDGET to try things like PPC campaigns, outsourcing content writers, paying for good hosting, and all the million other little things you will need the money for. Online Marketing is a million times easier when you have some steady cash coming in vs trying to do it on a shoe string budget.
 
First off, thank you for your service to our country. I really appreciate you putting your country first.

You have pulled 2 tours, time to discontinue your service in the Marines.

boatBurner said:
Am I completely delusional to put faith into any of those ideas?
Click to expand...

Yes, you are.

Figure out how much you can 'rough' it lifestyle wise and what the absolute minimum amount is that you can live on. You need 'real' numbers to see what your cashflow is going to be. Now, you are obviously shooting for higher but still.

I am one of those WITHOUT a college degree (never got around to it) and am going to tell you that while you won't NEED it, it's nice to have. Since .gov pays you to do so take advantage of the opportunity.

Make sure you exhaust all the different opportunities available to you from .gov re: vet benefits. There are tons of resources and you'd be amazed whats available that you never really find out about. I know the guys on the Socnet.com forum can point you in the right direction.

Depending on where you live, check out usajobs.gov and see if there are any good IT jobs available in your area. Since you are a combat veteran you are getting a amazing amount of points and automatically go to the front of the line resume wise.

.gov IT currently makes about 20% more then the same job in private industry. You can also apply for Internships within .gov that pay you for work while you go to school.

While going to college be prepared to get a bunch of shit from professors etc. for being former military. Make sure you keep your SA up and go with the flow.

You have kids and a wife to think about at which point SECURITY comes first for me. That does NOT mean give up on your entrepreneurial spirit just make sure the money is coming in.

While having your family taken care off, use the evenings to build out a business.

If you were by yourself I'd tell you to rough it and live of peanut butter/jelly sandwiches and do your own thing while going to school.

Follow scottspfd82's advice!

Like he said, you can always hit up local businesses and sell some local work which is fairly straight forward and then outsource all the actual work to someone that does local like bluesteele or others in the BST section (I think the world of bluesteele and if things don't work he is willing to work with you and figure it out). This can generate a decent cash flow once you find 5+ monthly customers.
 
I can't give enough reputation for the input in here. I'm really listening, not just using this as a form of keyboard therapy (which it also accomplishes).

If I got a job, I would prefer (although I'd bite the bullet otherwise) for it to be in a field relevant to my interests, such as web dev, internet marketing, etc.

How would you go about earning an internship in this industry?

Edit: That's a really stupid question. I'll leave it up though, but I think a lot of people look for handouts in this industry, from what I've seen so far. Internet marketing is a unique arena, but I think it's still incredibly new and the barrier to entry is not unreasonable. That said, I've had a very good mentor and can only imagine if I had the opportunity for further mentorship, but I also believe you should earn that kind of mentorship. As someone with experience and qualifications as a good mentor in this industry, what kind of situation would you be inclined to mentor a new guy?
 
I'm gonna go ahead and recommend you check out email marketing (double opt in). It's basically a surefire business with very little startup capital needed and you don't need to wait for fucking MONTHS to a year like seo to see your $ back. If you need a vault.bz invite holla.
 
boatBurner said:
Goals with my money: In order to afford our lifestyle (including modest savings goals) I need to bring in between $5-6k/mo.

- $1,400/mo. from G.I. Bill during school semesters.
- Part-time job could net me ~$1,200

Best case scenario, I need to cover the gap for the $4,600/mo.

1. Renting lead generation sites = $??? ($4-600/mo.?)
2. Wife loses 50-60lbs, documented, garners a following = fat women wanting to know the secret from a real housewife who has been there = converting offers = $???.
3. Client work outsourced almost entirely by Indians and wickedfire members = $???.

Am I completely delusional to put faith into any of those ideas?
Click to expand...

That's not a good plan, imo.

1) Unless the lead gen sites are paid search driven, those lead gen sites are temporary.

2) Your wife's gameplan -- that shit has been played out 700 different ways. Yes, there is a ton of weight loss traffic, but monetizing it is no joke.

3) You didn't invent outsourcing. And Fiverr and the likes will only grow in stature. Your ability to mediate biz between fiverr/wf peeps and clients is another gamble.

More important than being on the cover of Forbes and driving a 5 Series, you need a skill that translates into $5k a month in a down economy. Before you need to bother with the thought of hanging a business license or diploma on the wall, you need to think about one thing: What skill can I create that will basically guarantee me seeing $5k a month in a down economy?

You won't get that overnight, but at the same time you don't need to go to med school either.

Plenty of professions offer that kind of dough. Plenty of professions that offer that kind of dough can be had in 2-3 years of edu:

  • Nurse
  • Plumber
  • Dental Hygienest
  • Electrician
  • Etc.

If you want to figure in a BA/BS, add a year to the equation, and be 29 making ~ $5k a month:

  • Grade School Teacher (Math or Science)
  • High School Teacher (Math or Science)
  • Engineer

That's the short list. You can grow it from there.

Once you have that, then you can do whatever the hell you want with your free time.

* Your military experience is valuable. People respect the time/effort/risk. Employers respect the discipline that likely grew out of the experience. The experience is not going anywhere. It will be with you to use down the road.

** In before every other WF member comes in here and tries to blow smoke up your ass and have you think generating a biz that does a firm 60k a year is a breeze. You have four kids. If you like your kids and your wife, err on the side of caution.

*** In before every third WF member tries to trounce edu or the list of jobs above.

Anyway, my thoughts.
 
There are a lot of full time jobs in this industry. With 4 kids I would have to recommend going this type of route. Your retail banking experience might translate pretty well into the skills required to be an AM or a biz dev guy at a network.

10k is not sufficient reserves to start a business when you have serious overhead with your family. If you need 5k a month to get by, that only will last 2 months. And that is assuming you do not place any money into the business. I am guessing if you knew how to make money from day 1, and were confident of this. You would not be posting here. Now if you were living somewhere in a shitty apartment with a roommate and have expenses closer to 1-2k a month then yea fuckit go for it..

As a programmer I do not believe it is the most relevant field of study to internet marketing. Business degree might be more relevant but most of the coverage there is not going to directly apply.

Good luck getting an SBA loan for the IM business. Things are very abstract in this business. The SBA wants to see something more like, I want 100k so I can buy a commercial oven to start a bakery, here is the market I will be entering etc etc.

I would think you want to take advantage of GI bill coverage, isn't there a way you can use the GI bill toward's your children's education? If so then maybe that is the way to go.

If you decide to go for it and build your own business, what is your backup plan? Will you get a job? Will you be in welfare territory?
 
What are your monthly expenses? Can those be cut down? 5-6k/mo seems like quite a big nut, even with 4 children.

Making $4k/mo in a new business venture just does not seem realistic especially when you have a wife and kids. I would not expect to make this anytime soon w/ a new business if I were you.

I think you are going to have to find some type of job to cover your expenses and give you some padding. Get a job in whatever you want to be really good at and work your ass off.

I would not go to school, that will just be a waste of time. School will not teach you anything that you can not learn on your own on the Internet faster and for free. Learn what you need to know online, through your job and through your business attempts, not with school.

Anything military/government related also seems like a waste of time. While I respect what you have done with it and I'm sure it was a great experience, it's probably time to move on. The last person you want to count on for your financial security is the government.

I would also keep the $10k in savings and not spend any of it. I would downgrade my lifestyle big time before even touching that $10k.

You need to generate more cashflow and your only realistic bet is going to be by working your way up the ranks of some type of job. If you commit all your time to learning and being the best I am sure you will be much more capable of venturing out into your own business in a few years. While I think starting a business is great and everyone should do it, you have to be careful when you have a wife and 4 kids. You don't want to gamble with your family. Work your ass off in something real and gain some stability. Once you are stable then build your business on your free time.

Those are my thoughts.
 
Get a job, but before going the conventional route in finding one, use some creativity. Pick something you want to learn about / get involved in, research a bit, then using your existing skill set put together some type of project / package. Schedule meetings with self-made millionaires in your area that are in the same industry, and showcase it to them, while saying you're very interested in that industry, have some ideas, but aren't quite sure where to go yet, and would love the opportunity to work for them.

If you get lucky, one of them will offer you a job, and if that happens the corporate ladder you need to climb just became much smaller. Make sure you blow them away with whatever you showcase to them though. And if you get REALLY lucky, maybe that millionaire will even mentor you a little. Going the unconventional route like this may strike a chord with another successful entrepreneur out there, as it proves a certain level of creativity to them.

This way you have a good entry level job, will learn loads in an industry you want (and probably more than you would in school), get a paycheck, plus maybe more importantly, make some good contacts. Those contacts could become invaluable in the years ahead.

PS. I don't know, maybe that's a stupid idea. I haven't looked for a job in about 13 years, so might not want to take my advice. :)
 
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