The Practicality of Creating A Nation

[guerilla]

Since we're hijacking this thread to once again indulge your mindless trolling, let's do it right.

Basic economics says so?

How so? Specifically. Don't drop links and expect that to be a rebuttal. Articulate an argument to support your claims or don't make those claims.

from the other thread :

How does this not make my point?

What "worse" regulations are Japan lacking? Germany? France?

Let's try this from another direction since you insist upon being obtuse.

1. Do all of these countries have the same regulations?

2. How do you gauge the amount of intervention in each of these markets?

If you don't understand how a 30% obesity rate puts more demand on the system than if it still was the same as in 1980, or if it was 3% like in Japan, then I don't know what to tell you.

That's not a responsive answer. You made a claim, and now you're claiming it should be accepted without proof.

Is that good argumentation?

As we get older, we tend to need more medical care. The baby boom generation is heading into retirement, with enrollment in Medicare set to grow by an average of 1.6 million people annually.

More people buy more computers all the time. They aren't getting more expensive. In fact, they have progressively become cheaper as demand has increased. And with that increased demand, again gotten cheaper, over and over.

Also, every western country has a baby boomer generation. That's not a uniquely American situation. Demographics don't favor anyone in the West.

Additionally, nearly half the U.S. population has one or more chronic conditions, among them asthma, heart disease or diabetes, which drive up costs. And two-thirds of adults are either overweight or obese, which can also lead to chronic illness and additional medical spending.

Do you have proof that these conditions are the reason why healthcare is so expensive, or are you correlating the two without evidence or a clear chain of causality?

You might have points to make about health with age and obesity, but you don't make any kind of rational argument vis a vis prices which is the realm of economics, not armchair speculation by supposed healthcare industry observers.

Read this: http://mises.org/daily/3643

Try to understand the fact that prices in the US can only go up with the current amount of intervention (indeed aggregate prices can only rise as they do with government monetary intervention), and that is why they are sky high already. It has nothing to do with fat people or old people. It has everything to do with government intervention in the marketplace, and frankly, you embarrass yourself not understanding this stuff considering how much material Jake and I (among others) have shared on the subject.

 

[Moxie]

How so? Specifically. Don't drop links and expect that to be a rebuttal. Articulate an argument to support your claims or don't make those claims.

LOL, why do I have explain a basic economic concept to you?

You're making the claim that "regulation" is 100% responsible for determining the price of something. This would mean that all the USA has to do is switch over to Japan's regulations and USA costs would go down by 2/3, even if everyone in the USA developed diabetes.

That's the far more controversial claim, and you made it first, so why don't YOU support that claim if you really believe that the fate of the world hinges on serious internet articulation.

1. Do all of these countries have the same regulations?

No.

2. How do you gauge the amount of intervention in each of these markets?

I don't.

That's not a responsive answer. You made a claim, and now you're claiming it should be accepted without proof.

Is that good argumentation?

Who's the troll again? Must I also "argue" and "prove" to you over a message board that smoking increases cancer?

More people buy more computers all the time. They aren't getting more expensive. In fact, they have progressively become cheaper as demand has increased. And with that increased demand, again gotten cheaper, over and over.

More people buy more pizza, milk, and NFL tickets all the time. They are getting more expensive.

Do you really not understand why the price of tech products have come down so much and why that is a bizarre apples and oranges comparison in relation to caring for patients? Forgetting about that, what if suddenly everyone in China could afford a computer? What if 500 million space aliens came down and all wanted a computer tomorrow? Do computer prices go up or down?

What if everyone threw away their computers and never wanted one again? Or what if the aliens cured most illnesses and diseases? This would have no pull on prices?

There's a reason that plumbers get paid more than McDonalds workers and that reason has nothing or little to do with regulation. There may be more overall demand for burgers, but when we compare one burger worker to one plumber, there is much more economic demand for the plumber because his skillset is rarer, with or without regulations.

If regulation was the only thing effecting price, then without them the wages for burger cooking, plumbing, or whatever else would be exactly the same.

Do you have proof that these conditions are the reason why healthcare is so expensive,

I didn't say they were "the" reason, or the biggest reason. You're the one who makes the highly opinionated black or white statements.

or are you correlating the two without evidence or a clear chain of causality?

Please show us your evidence and clear chain of causality for how the US regulations vs. Japan regulations are the sole cause for triple the price.

Please prove to us how regulations unique to the US were the sole cause as to why their amount went up 8 times, whereas the regulations of "socialist slave state" Sweden only caused them to triple.

Germany had higher costs than the US for part of the 1970s. Show us how Germany, despite being the first in Europe to have universal health care, somehow went on to have nearly half the costs of USA.

Remember, to meet your own strange internet demands, you have to conclusively examine every detail and scientifically prove to us full causality. We'll expect your full report in the year 2026, HAHAHA. :ticking:

Try to understand the fact that prices in the US can only go up with the current amount of intervention (indeed aggregate prices can only rise as they do with government monetary intervention), and that is why they are sky high already.

What interventions weren't in place in the US around 1980, but then later were? How did these specific interventions change the US system so much in comparison to other nations?

It has nothing to do with fat people or old people. It has everything to do with government intervention in the marketplace

Do you also believe the number of car accidents has nothing to do with the price of car insurance or repair? If the space aliens invade tomorrow and damage millions of cars, what happens to prices?

What if they destroy millions of toilets in the US, but not Japan? Do US plumber rates likely decrease or increase in comparison to Japan?

you embarrass yourself

You embarrass yourself with whatever makes you never admit that you could even be partially wrong, even when it means you have to contradict the basics of something you supposedly know a lot about. You, the person who at the same time seems to get a weird joy from snidely pointing out the wrongs of others.

not understanding this stuff considering how much material Jake and I (among others) have shared on the subject.

I don't recall any material that says to ignore everything to do with supply and demand, especially in regards to something as complex as health care.

 

[guerilla]

LOL, why do I have explain a basic economic concept to you?

Because the burden of proof is on the person claiming it.

Without a doubt, I am better at economics than you, and I honestly can't see your argument. So explain it, or withdraw it. Don't act like a petulant baby and post links without context.

You're making the claim that "regulation" is 100% responsible for determining the price of something.

No. I am claiming that regulation and government intervention is responsible for soaring US health costs. It doesn't meaningfully matter if it is 90% or 99%.

Ludwig von Mises made the claim that intervention in markets distorts price. This is canon among classical and Austrian school economists. It's also a priori true.

Under a regulatory regime in the US, NONE of the prices in medicine are market derived, and so NONE of them conform in a linear manner to supply and demand.

Indeed, Mises argues in his book "Socialism", that doing what the US does is medicine destroys any rationality in the price system, such that it cannot be counted on to accurately reflect supply and demand conditions.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS?

No.

I don't.

So basically, you haven't addressed my argument at all.

Who's the troll again? Must I also "argue" and "prove" to you over a message board that smoking increases cancer?

If you claim it, why not?

Are you familiar with the burden of proof to publish an academic paper, or to present a case in court? Why would making your claims here be subject to a lower standard of rigor? Why should I just accept something you say as fact?

More people buy more pizza, milk, and NFL tickets all the time. They are getting more expensive.

Why? The milk industry has benefited from protectionism, and the NFL is a cartel. Pizza going up in prices actually again, makes my point, that the aggregate price level can ONLY rise with government intervention.

Do you really not understand why the price of tech products have come down so much and why that is a bizarre apples and oranges comparison in relation to caring for patients? Forgetting about that, what if suddenly everyone in China could afford a computer? What if 500 million space aliens came down and all wanted a computer tomorrow? Do computer prices go up or down?

What if everyone threw away their computers and never wanted one again? Or what if the aliens cured most illnesses and diseases? This would have no pull on prices?

What you're posting would be true, in a perfectly free market. But we don't have one. Indeed, THAT WAS THE ENTIRE POINT OF MY POST.

Forget tech products, why does the cost of plastic surgery and laser eye surgery continue to get relatively more affordable?

I didn't say they were "the" reason, or the biggest reason. You're the one who makes the highly opinionated black or white statements.

Because I do not offer grey area opinions. If I don't feel strongly about something, unlike you, I don't pretend I have expertise on the topic.

Please show us your evidence and clear chain of causality for how the US regulations vs. Japan regulations are the sole cause for triple the price.

I never made any claims wrt Japan. You did. Claims you have still not substantiated.

Don't try to shift the burden of proof.

Do you also believe the number of car accidents has nothing to do with the price of car insurance or repair? If the space aliens invade tomorrow and damage millions of cars, what happens to prices?

Absolutely those have an effect. You have yet to prove that Americans are 3x more unhealthy than the Japanese.

You embarrass yourself with whatever makes you never admit that you could even be partially wrong, even when it means you have to contradict the basics of something you supposedly know a lot about. You, the person who at the same time seems to get a weird joy from snidely pointing out the wrongs of others.

No, I just understand economics and you don't. So when you critique something I write as an economic analysis, we end up with this mindless garbage from you. You feel like you can bury me under a mountain of Google search data without actually articulating or proving your point.

At best, what you've managed to do, is attempt to correlate a lot of separate ideas, and call it causation because everything affects supply and demand.

Including ... da da da.... government intervention.

Again, you're not competent on the subject, which I assume (rather than you actually being a total idiot, or a complete troll) is why you're unable to understand that supply and demand is only a mechanism and the most powerful short run lever on it is government.

I don't recall any material that says to ignore everything to do with supply and demand, especially in regards to something as complex as health care.

On the one hand, you argue you know why healthcare is more expensive.

Obesity and old age. You haven't proven it, but you claimed it.

On the other hand, you're now saying health care is very complex.

Funny.

Do you want to go back on my ignore list, or are you going to waste another precious half hour of my time today posting back more nonsense and not addressing your original claims or mine? A short answer to that question would be appreciated.

 

[Moxie]

No. I am claiming that regulation and government intervention is responsible for soaring US health costs. It doesn't meaningfully matter if it is 90% or 99%.

Then why didn't you act like most people and just responded like "I realize that there are multiple potential factors, but I am just saying that regulations are by far the biggest one." ??

Nobody forces you to try to turn everything into aggressive master debater battle. You're like someone that walks around slapping people in the face, but then acts shocked if anyone even lightly slaps back.

Indeed, Mises argues in his book "Socialism", that doing what the US does is medicine destroys any rationality in the price system, such that it cannot be counted on to accurately reflect supply and demand conditions.

Does he say that therefore demand plays no role at all?

DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS?

DO YOU LIKE PANCAKES?

Are you familiar with the burden of proof to publish an academic paper, or to present a case in court?

Are you familiar with how people communicate in everyday life? If I say that Wilt Chamberlain was the best NBA player ever, nobody is going to demand that I prove he is a real person.

Its speaks volumes that you view a SHOOTING THE SHIT message board as more like a court of law than real life.

Pizza going up in prices actually again, makes my point, that the aggregate price level can ONLY rise with government intervention.

Oh look, it's another black or white definitive statement.

Here's another shade of grey :

Drought expected to drive up cost of milk, cheese

I never made any claims wrt Japan.

The whole "topic" here has to do with what effects that particular regulations do or do not have on health care prices. Various countries have vastly different prices, therefore the only logical progression is to compare countries.

You have yet to prove that Americans are 3x more unhealthy than the Japanese.

It's commonly accepted fact among humans that obesity leads to more emergency room visits, etc. I'm not going to prove that to you anymore than I'm going to prove to you Wilt Chamberlain scored a lot of points. If you really want to learn about why that is an accepted fact, then you can look it up.

On the one hand, you argue you know why healthcare is more expensive.

Obesity and old age. You haven't proven it, but you claimed it.

I claimed that there were multiple reasons, did not make any claims to the severity of those reasons, and pointed out facts about other nations.

You are the one who made specific claims about "the" cause, and now you have changed that to the cause of 90-99%. These are claims you haven't proven.

You haven't mentioned even one regulation that is unique to the US vs. Japan, yet alone came anywhere close to proving why the unique US regulations cause such a price difference.



G : "I'm certain it's going to snow tomorrow."

Bertha : "That's nice. I just saw something on tv about hurricane Sandy raising prices."

G : "Can you prove this? Define raising. Where is the clear chain of causality? I'm sick of your moronic trolling."

Bertha : "Um OK, forget about that. I also noticed they said it might snow in 3 days."

G : "Can you prove to me it is going to snow in 3 days? Would that hold up in court?"

Bertha : "Wut? Can you prove to me it is going to snow tomorrow?"

G : "That's weak argumentation. The burden of proof is on you. DO YOU UNDERSTAND? You made a claim, now back it up or get out of my face!"



Are you aware that this is how many violent and controlling people act in real life? Do you realize how strange it is for you to act this way, but at the same try to be some type of champion for non-aggression? Go look at that Wendy McElroy article that Jake linked to and observe how she and others act in the comments when there is disagreement or questioning going on.

Now this is a different world at wickedfire, but still with others on here when they come across angry or like an asshole there is usually at least a tinge of humor or some resemblance to real life to go along with it, you on the other hand come across like your fighting in the front lines of an actual war.

Do you want to go back on my ignore list, or are you going to waste another precious half hour of my time today posting back more nonsense and not addressing your original claims or mine? A short answer to that question would be appreciated.

Don't worry about it, I'm going to try to make a conscious effort to not reply to you in any way that can even be partially considered disagreeing with you.

GOOD LUCK BRO

 

[MSTeacher]

This thread was cool.

 

[guerilla]

Does he say that therefore demand plays no role at all?

Why don't you read the book?

It's commonly accepted fact among humans that obesity leads to more emergency room visits, etc.

It was once a commonly accepted fact the earth was flat too.

You are the one who made specific claims about "the" cause, and now you have changed that to the cause of 90-99%. These are claims you haven't proven.

If you don't understand Mises argument in Socialism (and you don't) then your criticism of my position is nonsense.

Where there is as much regulation as there is in the US, a rational price system CANNOT exist. Hence, before we even get to supply and demand, before we can even discuss the effects of obesity, we're dealing with a price system that cannot function even remotely in a free manner.

You don't understand principles or premises, and so you correlate effect with causality. Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

You haven't mentioned even one regulation that is unique to the US vs. Japan, yet alone came anywhere close to proving why the unique US regulations cause such a price difference.

I mentioned the most important one.

 

[guerilla]

This thread was cool.

Stupid people make it hard to have nice things.

In this case, you can blame the Dunning-Kruger effect.

 

[tradester]

interesting. Easier to buy small island like Richard Branson

 

[Moxie]

This thread was cool.

I apologize to you and slayerment. Here is a picture to makeup.

Stupid people make it hard to have nice things.

The epitome of stupid is demanding that a person on a message board proves to you that obesity increases health problems. It's arguing for the sake of arguing.

In this case, you can blame the Dunning-Kruger effect.

Feel free to print this out along with some of your other interactions on here, take them to a psychiatrist and ask them who appears to be exhibiting what traits of what mental disorders.

 

[slayerment]

You're seeing it as a violence problem, instead of a public relations + social cooperation problem.

Think asymmetrically.

Watch the seasteading presentations. They will give you a lot of ideas.

The stuff from 2009

The Seasteading Institute’s Videos on Vimeo
The Seasteading Institute’s Videos on Vimeo
The Seasteading Institute’s Videos on Vimeo

Thanks for these links. I have gone through about 10 of these videos so far. They are interesting, but to a degree they are off-putting to me. There is definitely great information to be gathered here, but I get the idea that these people aren't fully committed to this and willing to go 100% balls to the wall to make it happen.

 

[slayerment]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

What do you guys think about setting up a website similar to Stack Overflow for the purpose of answering specific questions on this type of a project? There are tons of specifics and I think it would be helpful to allow people to propose solutions and to vote on which solutions seem best.

For example, we could submit answers and vote on which answers are best to questions such as, "What is the best location?", "What are the major advantages to Seasteading?", "What are the major advantages to land?", "How will we handle money?", "Will there be a need for leaders?", "How will property be defined?", "Would we be attacked?", "Does everyone have to agree on non-aggression?" and on and on. I would hope with enough questions with solid answers we would be able to start moving towards figuring out the expenses and ways that something like this would scale.

Thoughts?

 

[igl00]

How to Start Your Own Country: 10 steps (with pictures) - wikiHow