Happy Birthday Bitcoin!
- Thread starter lukep
- Start date
That's my point. Bitcoin doesn't allow for chargebacks in the sense that you can submit any random ass lie to Amex and get your money back instantly. That's a positive, not a negative.
I agree with this. If there is an opportunity to backstab or to scheme, it will be done. My 2 main thoughts are:
1) Legitimate companies, websites, etc will not start scamming people because it will destroy their brand and cause them to lose more money than they gain from scamming. If I order a TV on newegg.com, I do so because many many people vouch for newegg and I know it's a legitimate business. It has nothing to do with the fact that I know I can chargeback if they decide not to send the TV.
2) There will surely be ways to ensure that scamming doesn't blatantly occur with bitcoin. Intermediary payment processors will exist that merchants can choose to use if they want to appear more credible and that disallow for scamming.
Being an advertiser myself and having multiple friends who run offers, I can tell you this is not true in the slightest. All of my sites are 100% legitimate, we sell legitimate products, shipping is fast and easy, customer support is 24/7 worldwide with an average hold time of 30 seconds, and there's even a huge "100% money back guarantee" sticker slapped up on the site.
Yet I've received tens of thousands of dollars in chargebacks so far this year. VERY RARELY do they even cite legitimate reasons like "product doesn't work" or "didn't receive product." Nope, 90%+ of the time it's bullshit like "my 2 year old son ordered this without my knowledge and has already consumed the product, please refund full amount and allow me to keep the product" or "I didn't read the giant bold text on the checkout page stating that it was a subscription nor did I read the terms even though I opted-in twice because I'm a fucking idiot, please refund money but also allow me to keep the product because I'm too lazy to ship it back."
The "my son/daughter/cat/dog/car ordered this for me, please refund but I also want to keep the product" excuse accounts for the huge majority of my chargebacks. Tell me these are legitimate. Bitcoin destroys these scamming idiots and allows businesses to GROW by spending less money/time on idiocy and more money on producing/improving products, hiring more employees, etc.
alright guys, i'm issuing stock on a new US without presidents. you all get shares at $1/shr. let's all get excited about it and bid the stock up to, hmmm, say 371.57... wow, look at all the value we've created. we must be geniuses in the new market for a non-presidential america.
That doesn't make any sense though. By that logic, nobody should ever send a wire transfer again? They're pretty irreversible too.
And you can draw up a contract using BTC as currency, just as easily as USD, which is enforceable by a court of law too.
Friend, if you're running the products in your sig with affiliates, you're a magnet for chargebacks.
Also, your 100% money back guarantee is only as good as the awareness you generate with the client, and your ability to transact those guarantees quickly.
For sellers perhaps. Not for buyers. And it's a dream come true for sellers with bad intent.
"Legitimate" is a loaded term. Yes, brand matters. But good luck suing Walmart if you feel they have done you wrong.
And even better luck suing them over non-money, non-legal tender Bitcoins.
And they may even offer chargebacks, because consumer protection always trumps vendor protection in our political system.
Wire transfers are conducted through the state regulated banking system. Oh, and they aren't irreversible.
Sure you can. Go find someone to enforce it. Remember, BTC transactions are not supposed to be traceable.
In order to get Bitcoin to act like dollars, you have to get Bitcoin run by and regulated by the state. I don't think that will ever happen, but let's say it does.
The day that happens, Bitcoin is just another state controlled fiat delusion instead of a libertarian delusion.
well said, guerilla, that's game over. if they don't kill it outright, they'll assimilate it.
Eve is brilliant because it shows the holes in an anarchist economy/society. It doesn't prove anarchism doesn't work, it just proves that being dumb and too trusting can have very expensive consequences.
There is no safety net for lazy or dumb people. They fail. Then they either smarten up, or they leave the gene pool.
how does eve manage death? given its realism & brilliance in handling reality & whatnot? you're completely done, right? can't ever play eve again? LOL.
Do you have any good reading on Eve? I'm not much of a gamer anymore, but the concept and the economic/psychological aspects as they relate to real life sound like they'd be interesting.
Wow, I thought you understood the blockchain better than that.
This is the EXACT SAME conversation that has gone on in every single Bitcoin related thread on wickedfire.
No, you don't, you can can use a mutually trusted escrow provider and they can support the enforcement of property rights system.
I think you need to read my post again, or be more verbose, because this reply literally makes zero sense.
Does anyone else reading this thread agree with Guerilla that my response made zero sense?
If I wanted to dismiss it, I wouldn't have asked you to explain it more.
As far as I can tell, you said
NO, (WHAT YOU SAID GUERILLA)
which didn't make much sense to me.
Also, your mutual escrow guy, he's going to take all your bitcoins and claim he was hacked. Then what will you do? #getmad ?
As far as I can tell, you said
NO, (WHAT YOU SAID GUERILLA)
which didn't make much sense to me.
Also, your mutual escrow guy, he's going to take all your bitcoins and claim he was hacked. Then what will you do? #getmad ?
I realize I haven't endeared myself to the Bitcoin guys, but these are serious, non-mythical, non-hater questions about Bitcoin.
When people get so invested in it, have you actually considered its weak spots and how you will deal with those?
And if there is a market or need for an escrow service, why are you debating with me, when you should be forming and building the Paypal for Bitcoin? Forget arguing I am wrong, show me. Prove that it can be done.
I am seriously thinking about setting up some sort of BTC holding or transacting operation. When our deposits get big enough, I can retire. Seriously, besides a bunch of butthurts BTC users, what's the consequence? What is the deterrent socially, economically, legally to stop me from doing that?
Those are serious questions to answer if you're really serious about Bitcoin replacing other monies.
Trust is more than reputation, because even a great reputation has a price.
When people get so invested in it, have you actually considered its weak spots and how you will deal with those?
And if there is a market or need for an escrow service, why are you debating with me, when you should be forming and building the Paypal for Bitcoin? Forget arguing I am wrong, show me. Prove that it can be done.
I am seriously thinking about setting up some sort of BTC holding or transacting operation. When our deposits get big enough, I can retire. Seriously, besides a bunch of butthurts BTC users, what's the consequence? What is the deterrent socially, economically, legally to stop me from doing that?
Those are serious questions to answer if you're really serious about Bitcoin replacing other monies.
Trust is more than reputation, because even a great reputation has a price.
Ok, I now understand why there was confusion. Essentially, I was explaining that Bitcoin does not need a built in chargeback mechanism to be successful, and you are saying that "so what, it can be gamed one way or another".
And then I'd counter with, "actually in the case of escrow, you use multi key signing and the escrow company cant ever spend the money themselves"
Read the section on escrow - https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts
Actually read the whole thing, this technology is amazing.
While we're speculating...
It seems that bitcoin has likely made a good number of early adopters rich. Whatever the future of bitcoin is, this is the case now. Basement dwelling neck beards with fat stacks. I'm hopeful of what they'll do with their new money.
I'm not sure how big this group is, surely dozens, but maybe hundreds, thousands? And they each have $100k, maybe $300k, others with millions. (What do to think?) And I'm not talking about the speculators, but the hacker types.
They're techies interested in encryption. They are largely unknown. And they're ideologically opposed to centralized control.
And now they have access to capital they would never of had otherwise, that can be spent on disruptive technology that wouldn't have been funded otherwise. And, I would imagine, profit won't be a major driving factor since they didn't sweat for their fortune.
I'm not saying they're not looking to make money, but if they've got it already, I see this group taking up the more idealistic, ambitious stuff rather than starting a chain of laundromats that accept bitcoin.
So, they'll be interested in open sourcing solutions to problems that the marketplace otherwise wouldn't. (That's a lot of assumptions, but if just one of these bitcoin billionaires goes rouge and delivers something awesome, I will cream my pants.)
I've got my fingers crossed that this results in effective ways for the general population to thwart the dragnet data collection stooges. There's stuff like TOR and PGP, but not one person I know IRL has heard of them.
I consider this top priority for the web, essentially smashing all the cameras. If the Internet is going to have a good future, government surveillance has got to be rooted out instead of built in.
Does anyone have any thoughts on this, or could you link me to anywhere that goes into this? Maybe I'm just dreaming this group up, but when 4000 BTC gets stolen, where does it go? Who is it funding? I imagine the result being something like Silicon Valley. All the vision without the venture capitalists, business plans, or Starbucks.
This is just something that intrigues me more than the price of BTC. It strikes me as a potential hotbed for innovation.
It seems that bitcoin has likely made a good number of early adopters rich. Whatever the future of bitcoin is, this is the case now. Basement dwelling neck beards with fat stacks. I'm hopeful of what they'll do with their new money.
I'm not sure how big this group is, surely dozens, but maybe hundreds, thousands? And they each have $100k, maybe $300k, others with millions. (What do to think?) And I'm not talking about the speculators, but the hacker types.
They're techies interested in encryption. They are largely unknown. And they're ideologically opposed to centralized control.
And now they have access to capital they would never of had otherwise, that can be spent on disruptive technology that wouldn't have been funded otherwise. And, I would imagine, profit won't be a major driving factor since they didn't sweat for their fortune.
I'm not saying they're not looking to make money, but if they've got it already, I see this group taking up the more idealistic, ambitious stuff rather than starting a chain of laundromats that accept bitcoin.
So, they'll be interested in open sourcing solutions to problems that the marketplace otherwise wouldn't. (That's a lot of assumptions, but if just one of these bitcoin billionaires goes rouge and delivers something awesome, I will cream my pants.)
I've got my fingers crossed that this results in effective ways for the general population to thwart the dragnet data collection stooges. There's stuff like TOR and PGP, but not one person I know IRL has heard of them.
I consider this top priority for the web, essentially smashing all the cameras. If the Internet is going to have a good future, government surveillance has got to be rooted out instead of built in.
Does anyone have any thoughts on this, or could you link me to anywhere that goes into this? Maybe I'm just dreaming this group up, but when 4000 BTC gets stolen, where does it go? Who is it funding? I imagine the result being something like Silicon Valley. All the vision without the venture capitalists, business plans, or Starbucks.
This is just something that intrigues me more than the price of BTC. It strikes me as a potential hotbed for innovation.