UK’s Cameron rejects early EU in/out referendum after vote loss

Yep, no Islam "invasion".

Especially young people in eastern Europe will not allow Muslims to fuck around.

That London attack on soldier if it did happen in Poland for example, probably it would create a huge storm of violence towards many Muslims (and other brown and black people) living in that country. Many could be even killed. No jokes.
 


Gentlemen and ladies. We are about to witness democracy in action. The British electorate just propelled UKIP into four party politics.

What this in fact means is a fuck ton of halfwits and undesirables just found themselves in the unique position of becoming tax payer funded public servants that will draw significant media scrutiny as the collectively fuck up... and boy will they fuck up. There a lot more of them now which means a lot more lulz. Next election should see a swing back to the center right and UKIP will be returned to fringe politics where they belong hopefully after someone brings Spitting Image back to lampoon each of them with the satirical vitreol of old thats been sadly missimg from late night television.
 
^^ and there's hundreds, if not thousands of more images just like that. I'm sure I don't need to link them here.
You don't, I accept that there are Muslim extremists out there.
Google and YouTube "Muslim patrols".

You have self segregationist people that don't want to integrate into the communities they've moved into, but instead want to change them to be like those where they've come from.
Google 'Britain First Christian Patrols', 'ku klux klan', 'BNP, 'Westboro', etc. The fact that they exist doesn't necessarily mean immigration = forced religious doctrine.

"In the name of tolerance we have imported intolerance."

With a birthrate some 4 times greater than ethnic Europeans, it's not hard to see how, at some point in the future though perhaps not in our lifetimes, European cultures will be replaced by Islam. The same is slowly happening in the US and Canada.
What is European culture? Look back a few hundred years, I'm not sure you'd call the culture of those times equivalent to the culture now. Change isn't always bad.

"We have 50 million Muslims in Europe. There are signs that Allah will grant Islam victory in Europe—without swords, without guns, without conquest—will turn it into a Muslim continent within a few decades. - Muammar Gaddafi"
Talk to any priest and you'll hear similar. What's wrong with the above quote, if people want to convert to Islam without being under duress, they're welcome to. I can't see the point you're making.

I don't dislike Muslim people in general. I dislike organized religion. I especially despise those religious zealots who would try to force me to follow their doctrine.

Who said anything about forcing? The above quote you gave seemed to be pretty specific about a lack of force. If you have a beef with organized religion, fine, but what have immigrants got to do with that, as a whole? Christianity is the biggest religion in the world, surely if you're against organized religion, it would be in your interest for Christians to convert to Islam?

Wat. You are basing on possibilities and constructing all these what ifs, is the reality not good enough? That image is from Australia, not Egypt.
So what exact argument were you intending to present with that image? I can't debate with a photo, I just thought I'd get some of your possible arguments out of the way.


Also I am glad you "know" what they want
I never said that, if you're going to put something in quotes, make sure the other person actually said it. They were simply questions.


because last time I checked they want

- "the west to gtfo of the middle east"
- israel to "gtfo of the middle east"
when I say gtfo of the middle east, I mean stop blowing up their houses, not going there on holiday.


- to live in the west
Some do.

- to remain anti-western
Are you seriously saying the majority of Muslim immigrants go through the entire immigration process just to convert people to Islam? If you wanted to do that, it'd probably be a lot easier to go somewhere like Africa, like we do.

- to exercise their religious law
Yes. Don't Christians want to do the same? That doesn't necessarily mean imposing your law on everyone else. If some Muslims want to go by Sharia Law amongst themselves, what's the problem?

- in a rich society built on secular law
And a lot of said laws originate from the Bible. You know the Bible and the Quran are pretty damn similar in what they tell you to do and not do, right?

I'd say the same about any religion or generally subculture, if it becomes violent and retarded. No one gives a shit about what Tolkien cosplayers do on their gatherings, but the moment they start attacking everyone around for not living in their world, they become a problem. They should be treated in accordance with general criminal law without all the "ermagerd it's racist to bash them" fluff.
-
Another example of you complaining about me doing something, while doing it yourself.

What rational person doesn't agree that terrorists shouldn't have to abide by the law? Your argument is akin to banning all Tolkein cosplay because a small group of Tolkein cosplayers start attacking everyone around them.

Which is why the middle east is a such an hospitable place to live amirite?
Well, it was...

da_qayoumi5_slide-b60b940bcc181e5b867dc4ac003f86ee0aecf1a9-s6-c30.jpg
 
Google 'Britain First Christian Patrols', 'ku klux klan', 'BNP, 'Westboro', etc. The fact that they exist doesn't necessarily mean immigration = forced religious doctrine.

But that's exactly what they are trying to do. Watch the videos. They specifically say the area they are "patrolling" is a Muslim area, that women need to dress how they want them to dress, that alcohol isn't allowed, that gays aren't welcome, and that they want to impose Sharia law upon the community. The last thing we need are religious police patrolling our neighborhoods.

What is European culture? Look back a few hundred years, I'm not sure you'd call the culture of those times equivalent to the culture now. Change isn't always bad.

Technology has changed, styles have changed, and we're not drawing and quartering or tarring and feathering people in the streets anymore. Beyond that though, a lot of regional traditions have been practiced for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. Food, fashion, architecture, agriculture, art, music, dance, language, etc. etc. are all things that define a people. The French are different from the Germans, who are different from the Italians, who are different from the Spanish... We're not talking about a little "change". We're talking about those cultures completely vanishing years from now.

What's wrong with the above quote, if people want to convert to Islam without being under duress, they're welcome to. I can't see the point you're making.

People can convert to any religion they want, I don't care two bits as long as they keep it to themselves and it doesn't interfere with my life.

That's not what fundamentalists want though. Their doctrine says you should convert to Islam or you should be killed. Their laws say that "crimes against god" are punishable by death. Say something bad about their prophet or draw a silly cartoon of him and you'll have a fatwa on your head and will most likely be gunned down in the street on your way to work.

Who said anything about forcing? The above quote you gave seemed to be pretty specific about a lack of force.

It's insidious, force isn't necessary. The whole point is that it's happening from the inside, like a cancer spreading. If you don't detect it and stop it early, then it will kill you.

You acknowledge that there are Islamic fundamentalists, yet you seem to think that they don't pose a serious threat.

So you have 50 million Muslims living in Europe. Let's say only 1% of those are hard core fundamentalists, the rest are mostly moderates who fit in nicely and go about their business like normal folk.

That's still 500,000 psychopaths walking the streets of Europe.

You don't see a problem with that?

And what happens if the shit really does hit the fan? Another Muslim kid gets gunned down by the cops, or some other act that causes upset in the Islamic communities. When it comes down to it who are the 50 million going to side with? The indigenous populations or their own people? It only takes a few bad apples to whip people into a frenzy. History has shown that time and time again.

If you have a beef with organized religion, fine, but what have immigrants got to do with that, as a whole? Christianity is the biggest religion in the world, surely if you're against organized religion, it would be in your interest for Christians to convert to Islam?

This doesn't make any sense at all.

Just to be clear, I don't have a beef with organized religion. I misspoke when I said I dislike it. I'm indifferent when it comes to your typical Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindu, or whatever. I'm quite quite fascinated by a lot of religious practices, art and architecture.

I do not, however, like a fundamentalist of any flavor. You cannot have a rational conversation with a zealot, and you are not going to change their mind.
 
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OvVd3VH3f4"]Muslim Punishment For Homosexuality - YouTube[/ame]
 
Joe -

Are you seriously saying the majority of Muslim immigrants go through the entire immigration process just to convert people to Islam? If you wanted to do that, it'd probably be a lot easier to go somewhere like Africa, like we do.

Not the majority, but a lot want, and those are the only ones I'm talking about.

Yes. Don't Christians want to do the same? That doesn't necessarily mean imposing your law on everyone else. If some Muslims want to go by Sharia Law amongst themselves, what's the problem?

The only problem is when they want said Christians and atheists to go by Sharia.

And a lot of said laws originate from the Bible. You know the Bible and the Quran are pretty damn similar in what they tell you to do and not do, right?

No they do not. European laws originate from Roman law or customary law depending what European country you talk about.

I see what you are doing comparing Christianity and Islam, but they are different in the length of history and the amount of civilizational luggage. Inquisition and the crusades happened centuries ago and we can safely say that Christianity is 'done' with violence; but Islam is a relatively young and energetic religion and aggression towards non-believers is very frequent. In other words, Christian religious society has already taken place, it's a thing of the past and and it's taking a large part of moral foundation of the western society.

Let me state my main point here to avoid the endless quote-picking ping-pong:

Western civilization nowadays is based on transparency, freedoms and guarantees. Western Europe went a long and bloody way to get to this society. If people want to join it and integrate into it - there is nothing wrong with that. If, on the other hand, they want to abuse the gentle and humane Western rules to get inside and start building a different, closed and oppressive society by their own design, thus destroying the previous one, then it's a problem. I'm not saying it's all imminent, but chances are there.
 
Gentlemen and ladies. We are about to witness democracy in action. The British electorate just propelled UKIP into four party politics.

What this in fact means is a fuck ton of halfwits and undesirables just found themselves in the unique position of becoming tax payer funded public servants that will draw significant media scrutiny as the collectively fuck up... and boy will they fuck up. There a lot more of them now which means a lot more lulz. Next election should see a swing back to the center right and UKIP will be returned to fringe politics where they belong hopefully after someone brings Spitting Image back to lampoon each of them with the satirical vitreol of old thats been sadly missimg from late night television.
No, UKIP will stay in UK for longer. Actually once EU is destroyed, they will be the only party that will be able to take care of UK.

Look at France, Poland, Check Republic, Germany and other countries. Euro skeptics are all over the place now, and still growing fast. Forget about democracy (communism) in Europe, it's done. There will be 100-150 people in European Parliament with just one vision in their minds, to destroy EU from within, and to bring back power to the countries (which often means no more fucking around like those two pieces of shit that killed that soldier, plus no more benefits for lazy bastards and baby makers).

In Poland New Center party is powered by 18-35 year old people mostly. All young and loaded with anger and energy. And sick of high taxes, corruption and lack of growth (Poland has 0,5% growth, Germany -1% or something like that... it's a fucking joke).

It will be fun to watch EU dying.

BTW a bit of off topic. As we know US is in soo deep debt that is virtually impossible for them to get out of it. All countries in UE are in deep debt as well. And now this is the biggest fear.

In 39 Hitler's Germany was in soo heavy debt that Hitler decided to make a war just to hide it (of course he created that debt). That was one of the major reasons he started WWII.
The fear is that Barack Hussein Obama might be thinking about exactly same move (with his UE "friends"). It doesn't have to be a nuclear conflict, just good old fashioned shooting, bombing etc.

If you look at the Ukraine and what's is going on over there, that could be beginning of a very nasty times for all of us. And another problem is that Putin wasn't made by a soft dick (as we all see).

I was thinking lately about going to some nice and worm tropical country, but decided to not to for a while. I may rethink my decision.
 
Andrewkar, what relationship would you like to see between European countries, assuming no EU? This isn't a loaded question.
 
You have self segregationist people that don't want to integrate into the communities they've moved into, but instead want to change them to be like those where they've come from.

Generalizing much?

You arn't accounting for Britain's subtle but incredible power to assimilate people.

I'll give you an example: gay marriage.

When that bill went through Parliament, there were protests from Christian groups (mainly Tory Christians). But every single Muslim MP voted in favour of it. Which seems incredible till you realize that all the muslim MPs were members of the Labour party and Labour is famously tribal where loyalty to the party ethos is more important than loyalty to religion.

Will those Muslim MPs get punished by their muslim constituents for voting in favour of gay marriage? No, because those constituents are Labour voters too, and they've been assimilated into the Labour tribe and have imbibed the notion that loyalty to the tribe is more important than to any other identity.

So you've got muslim citizens supporting muslim MPs who voted for gay marriage, and they are all doing it because that's the price of being in the tribe.

Tribal politics is interesting - the tribe accepts you and defends you, but in return you are required to defend other members of the tribe, in this case the gay members. And that has a kind of homogenizing effect on everyone.

People like belonging to tribes, especially big tribes. Part of Labour's genius is welcoming people in and then changing them from within through tribal pressure.

We do have a problem if muslims start voting Tory. Unfortunately Tories arn't tribal, most of their MPs seem to have used the party to get into Parliament to get business contacts rather than because they believe fervently in Toryism, and they frequently ditch the party (resigning mid-term) or otherwise do their own thing. Most of the protesters to the gay marriage bill were Tory Christians defying their leadership. Those Tories who are tribal are less welcoming of newcomers, and when you reject people they start to agitate against you.

The 7/7 bombers had started to make the transition away from Labour - their parents had bought them fancy cars and they were going through a rejection of Labour whom they defined as the party who taxed too much and led by Blair who started interfering wars in the ME. But they hadn't joined any new tribe, because no-one else had welcomed them in. They were trapped in a tribeless vacuum which the jihadis filled.

And now we have UKIP, a new tribe, who also have a rejectionist attitude to migrants - that might push a lot of muslims back into the Labour tribe - but as stated before, the price of the Labour welcome is that they embrace feminism and gay rights, all of which are antithetical to islam, but which they may feel is a price worth paying, and as they pay it over time they stop being islamic in anything but name.
 
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No, UKIP will stay in UK for longer. Actually once EU is destroyed, they will be the only party that will be able to take care of UK.

Look at France, Poland, Check Republic, Germany and other countries. Euro skeptics are all over the place now, and still growing fast. Forget about democracy (communism) in Europe, it's done. There will be 100-150 people in European Parliament with just one vision in their minds, to destroy EU from within, and to bring back power to the countries (which often means no more fucking around like those two pieces of shit that killed that soldier, plus no more benefits for lazy bastards and baby makers).

In Poland New Center party is powered by 18-35 year old people mostly. All young and loaded with anger and energy. And sick of high taxes, corruption and lack of growth (Poland has 0,5% growth, Germany -1% or something like that... it's a fucking joke).

It will be fun to watch EU dying.

BTW a bit of off topic. As we know US is in soo deep debt that is virtually impossible for them to get out of it. All countries in UE are in deep debt as well. And now this is the biggest fear.

In 39 Hitler's Germany was in soo heavy debt that Hitler decided to make a war just to hide it (of course he created that debt). That was one of the major reasons he started WWII.
The fear is that Barack Hussein Obama might be thinking about exactly same move (with his UE "friends"). It doesn't have to be a nuclear conflict, just good old fashioned shooting, bombing etc.


If you look at the Ukraine and what's is going on over there, that could be beginning of a very nasty times for all of us. And another problem is that Putin wasn't made by a soft dick (as we all see).

I was thinking lately about going to some nice and worm tropical country, but decided to not to for a while. I may rethink my decision.

Sorry can't let that slide.

Germany was in massive debt due to the costs of WW1, followed by the huge reparations they were forced to pay when Germany capitulated. Add the 1929 Stock crash and the fatherland was fucked. Hitler used this to his advantage to take power.

He started WW11 because he was an egotistical maniac who levelled the blame of Germany's misfortune at the West and it's Jewish influence. Also he wanted to take other territories to expand the Third Reich, "lebensraum".

I know that's nothing to do with the thrust of your initial argument but if you are going to make a point try to get your facts right.
 
No, UKIP will stay in UK for longer. Actually once EU is destroyed, they will be the only party that will be able to take care of UK.

Look at France, Poland, Check Republic, Germany and other countries. Euro skeptics are all over the place now, and still growing fast. Forget about democracy (communism) in Europe, it's done. There will be 100-150 people in European Parliament with just one vision in their minds, to destroy EU from within, and to bring back power to the countries (which often means no more fucking around like those two pieces of shit that killed that soldier, plus no more benefits for lazy bastards and baby makers).

In Poland New Center party is powered by 18-35 year old people mostly. All young and loaded with anger and energy. And sick of high taxes, corruption and lack of growth (Poland has 0,5% growth, Germany -1% or something like that... it's a fucking joke).

It will be fun to watch EU dying.

BTW a bit of off topic. As we know US is in soo deep debt that is virtually impossible for them to get out of it. All countries in UE are in deep debt as well. And now this is the biggest fear.

In 39 Hitler's Germany was in soo heavy debt that Hitler decided to make a war just to hide it (of course he created that debt). That was one of the major reasons he started WWII.
The fear is that Barack Hussein Obama might be thinking about exactly same move (with his UE "friends"). It doesn't have to be a nuclear conflict, just good old fashioned shooting, bombing etc.

If you look at the Ukraine and what's is going on over there, that could be beginning of a very nasty times for all of us. And another problem is that Putin wasn't made by a soft dick (as we all see).

I was thinking lately about going to some nice and worm tropical country, but decided to not to for a while. I may rethink my decision.

poster_cheguevara_big.jpg
 
Andrewkar, what relationship would you like to see between European countries, assuming no EU? This isn't a loaded question.
Business and cultural relationships. We can do it without EU and without wars. We are all different, all nations I mean. Isn't it beautiful? Diversity makes this world a much more interesting place.
 
P.S. Should have added - the most interesting phenomenon we'll see in the next general election is the sight of Muslim citizens voting for a Labour leader who is of Jewish descent.
 
Sorry can't let that slide.

Germany was in massive debt due to the costs of WW1, followed by the huge reparations they were forced to pay when Germany capitulated. Add the 1929 Stock crash and the fatherland was fucked. Hitler used this to his advantage to take power.

He started WW11 because he was an egotistical maniac who levelled the blame of Germany's misfortune at the West and it's Jewish influence. Also he wanted to take other territories to expand the Third Reich, "lebensraum".

I know that's nothing to do with the thrust of your initial argument but if you are going to make a point try to get your facts right.
In part I can agree with you here.
But let's not forget that Hitler created a completely new Germany after WWI. He rebuild it. They were really in progress and a way better developed than the rest of the Europe. The question is, how did he do it? Socialism is the answer. With socialism comes corruption. He borrowed a lot of money to make it happen. In result Hitler's Germany were in a heavy debt. Everyone knows that Hitler created infrastructure, well trained modern army etc. But not many ask the question, how did he do it and who paid for all this development. Debt is the answer.
 
Generalizing much?

You arn't accounting for Britain's subtle but incredible power to assimilate people.

I'll give you an example: gay marriage.

When that bill went through Parliament, there were protests from Christian groups (mainly Tory Christians). But every single Muslim MP voted in favour of it. Which seems incredible till you realize that all the muslim MPs were members of the Labour party and Labour is famously tribal where loyalty to the party ethos is more important than loyalty to religion.

Will those Muslim MPs get punished by their muslim constituents for voting in favour of gay marriage? No, because those constituents are Labour voters too, and they've been assimilated into the Labour tribe and have imbibed the notion that loyalty to the tribe is more important than to any other identity.

So you've got muslim citizens supporting muslim MPs who voted for gay marriage, and they are all doing it because that's the price of being in the tribe.

Tribal politics is interesting - the tribe accepts you and defends you, but in return you are required to defend other members of the tribe, in this case the gay members. And that has a kind of homogenizing effect on everyone.

People like belonging to tribes, especially big tribes. Part of Labour's genius is welcoming people in and then changing them from within through tribal pressure.

We do have a problem if muslims start voting Tory. Unfortunately Tories arn't tribal, most of their MPs seem to have used the party to get into Parliament to get business contacts rather than because they believe fervently in Toryism, and they frequently ditch the party (resigning mid-term) or otherwise do their own thing. Most of the protesters to the gay marriage bill were Tory Christians defying their leadership. Those Tories who are tribal are less welcoming of newcomers, and when you reject people they start to agitate against you.

The 7/7 bombers had started to make the transition away from Labour - their parents had bought them fancy cars and they were going through a rejection of Labour whom they defined as the party who taxed too much and led by Blair who started interfering wars in the ME. But they hadn't joined any new tribe, because no-one else had welcomed them in. They were trapped in a tribeless vacuum which the jihadis filled.

And now we have UKIP, a new tribe, who also have a rejectionist attitude to migrants - that might push a lot of muslims back into the Labour tribe - but as stated before, the price of the Labour welcome is that they embrace feminism and gay rights, all of which are antithetical to islam, but which they may feel is a price worth paying, and as they pay it over time they stop being islamic in anything but name.

Yes, I am generalizing a fair bit, it is true. Thanks for the informative and level headed post.