Best order to learn languages in?

[SethTheUBotGuy]

you know maybe I spoke to soon to defend my personal ideals. after all, it's not the style of martial arts that makes the fighter, but rather his practice and dedication. perhaps any paradigm can be useful if you work hard enough, or more importantly, maybe we are all wired differently to appreciate different ways of thinking about code.

 

[LogicFlux]

you know maybe I spoke to soon to defend my personal ideals. after all, it's not the style of martial arts that makes the fighter, but rather his practice and dedication. perhaps any paradigm can be useful if you work hard enough, or more importantly, maybe we are all wired differently to appreciate different ways of thinking about code.

I thought you were spot on. I'd try to post something more comprehensive to make the case for OOP over PP(in large apps) but I've got the flu or something and can't think worth a shit so, later.

 

[kblessinggr]

I thought you were spot on. I'd try to post something more comprehensive to make the case for OOP over PP(in large apps) but I've got the flu or something and can't think worth a shit so, later.

The main place where I found OO fundamentals shine the most was in corporate/enterprise environments. It is actually much easier in the long run to have a team of people working on their own 'objects' especially when using something like Visual Studio or another enterprise level IDE/Development solution.

Where as procedural approach may fit perfectly into the workflow of the lone developer.

For me... its just personal preference, it really doesn't make sense to say OO is always right, or procedural is always right, because it really depends on what the problem is in the first place. A big factor in my opinion is, are you doing this on your own, or do you have to work with a team of developers?

 

[Truffles]

I'm pretty surprised at the direction this thread has taken--very interesting stuff. Just to clarify something...I started learning programming with C++ and making simple games for the TI-83 back in highschool over a decade ago. I get the basic concepts of programming and I'm even better at sleuthing out answers to particular coding hurdles through Google.

The primary goal of my learning additional languages is to enable me to create more dynamic websites that involve passing around data and/or multiple user accounts, so that leads me to believe that PHP/MySQL might be the next step for me and then I can layer Javascript on top of that.

 

[Vassilevsky]

Whether or not you want to defend C# is pointless. It can never compare to c/c++. It really is another attempt at getting developers to give in to MS and not care about coding for other systems

...and this attempt is based on Java. The whole fucking .NET is a rip off Java, Swing and stuff like that. You can basically correct a few punctuation and run a Java app in .NET and vice versa. It's a f*cking rip off. Sun should have sued Microsoft to death.

 

[uplinked]

...and this attempt is based on Java. The whole fucking .NET is a rip off Java, Swing and stuff like that. You can basically correct a few punctuation and run a Java app in .NET and vice versa. It's a f*cking rip off. Sun should have sued Microsoft to death.

That's why MS wrote .Net in the first place.
Microsoft used to have it's own JVM (Java Virtual Machine), which would take compiled Java code and run it with "very good support" on Microsoft machines. Then, Sun C&D'd the project and MS couldn't continue to release it's own "distribution" of Java... So they built .Net!

.Net is, at it's core, a reimplementation of code Sun already wrote once. And Sun did a good job, and Microsoft did a hackish job copying them. Most of JVM's package conventions and class structure are still in place in .Net, and I hate the layout of both. I think it's OO-overkill when you should have to instantiate ten different classes just to read from a file as a stream, or open a socket.
IMO, both JVM and .Net focus too heavily on implementing the same design patterns over and over, to cater to the lowest common denominator/developer.
When your code reads like "FileStream filestream= FileStreamOpen(filename).ReadFileStream();", it forces newer developers to rely on fat IDEs as a crutch (because Intellisense will suggest long function and class names for you), and creates tie-in to platforms like Visual Studio or Eclipse. On the flip side, it makes your code more readable, and readable code positively influences the adoption rate of a language. Overall, I believe that while these managed frameworks help newer programmers get into programming, faster, they attempt to be far too comprehensive and all-in-one to ever be the "best" solution for a problem. Programmers that have been working in one or the other for any extended period are almost always vigilant fanboys (in both MS and Java camps), and IMHO, if you're attached to any one solution strong enough to earn "vigilant fanboy" status, you're probably ignoring ten better solutions.

 

[mattfca]

I skipped over some stuff, but for op : Most web-dev you will need to do is html/css/php/javascript(jquery) so just learn those.

I write OO (or hack it in with php) whenever I code.

It makes more sense and is easily reusable. Note the first language I learned was java.

C# isn't useless, but its no where near as powerful as c++. the apples and oranges thing was right.

 

[erect]

In that respect why even bother to learn CSS or XHTML, just stick with HTML 4 Transitional w/ SSI or PHP, since it's purely fundamental functionality, some people may not want to stay on the page though.

To an extent, yes.

It's foolish to not "bother to learn CSS" as code bloating & re-skinning sites are factors ... but not for someone just starting. I would definitely recommend people start learning web dev with flat out html & tables. Mock me all you want but it makes the transition from familiar concepts (like excel) easier. Layout is stupid simple with tables and, yes, I still use them in a crunch.

 

[Rage9]

That's why MS wrote .Net in the first place.
Microsoft used to have it's own JVM (Java Virtual Machine), which would take compiled Java code and run it with "very good support" on Microsoft machines. Then, Sun C&D'd the project and MS couldn't continue to release it's own "distribution" of Java... So they built .Net!

.Net is, at it's core, a reimplementation of code Sun already wrote once. And Sun did a good job, and Microsoft did a hackish job copying them. Most of JVM's package conventions and class structure are still in place in .Net, and I hate the layout of both. I think it's OO-overkill when you should have to instantiate ten different classes just to read from a file as a stream, or open a socket.
IMO, both JVM and .Net focus too heavily on implementing the same design patterns over and over, to cater to the lowest common denominator/developer.
When your code reads like "FileStream filestream= FileStreamOpen(filename).ReadFileStream();", it forces newer developers to rely on fat IDEs as a crutch (because Intellisense will suggest long function and class names for you), and creates tie-in to platforms like Visual Studio or Eclipse. On the flip side, it makes your code more readable, and readable code positively influences the adoption rate of a language. Overall, I believe that while these managed frameworks help newer programmers get into programming, faster, they attempt to be far too comprehensive and all-in-one to ever be the "best" solution for a problem. Programmers that have been working in one or the other for any extended period are almost always vigilant fanboys (in both MS and Java camps), and IMHO, if you're attached to any one solution strong enough to earn "vigilant fanboy" status, you're probably ignoring ten better solutions.

Oh it started way before that, there was a large battle between Sun and MS where Sun accused MS of not properly supporting Java from the Sun standard (the people who wrote and developed it). MS has always been about doing their own thing regardless of standards (look at IE), which is why developing in a MS designed and supported language is bullshit and retarded.

MS basically gave up on making it easier for c++ developers to develop for Windows for their own agenda. If they have the time to develop their own shitty language they could have easier produced proper library's for c++. But again MS isn't about speed or what's best for programs or developers, they are about controlling the market.