A good rule to live by

IceToEskimos said:
Human beings love dogma, we almost seem to need it. Got down to your local hipster coffee shop and sit down for a chat with the first secular humanist Christopher Hitchens/Richard Dawkins fanboi you see and you'll get an earful of indoctrinated dogma on par with anything you are likely to hear from the direction of the pulpit.
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I think you may be confusing beliefs with dogma.

I won't speak for Hitchens as he was a Class A douchebag, but there is nothing dogmatic about Richard Dawkins. Yeah, he's angry and yeah he's immature at times, but in the end his message stems from the evidence he sees right in front of his face, combined with simple logic that a 3rd grader would understand.

Richard Dawkins' main point is that God is redundant because science deftly explains most phenomena that God has historically "explained." Dogma is a neglect of reason and a blind adherence to pre-ordained law. Read one of Dawkins' books (especially his earlier ones) and you'll find that all of his points are based on evidence and reason.

This isn't to say that he's right or wrong--that part is irrelevant. But dogmatic, he isn't.
 


TrafficAngels said:
Ehh....atheists just want to rebel and really don't get the big picture. There is no reason that religion and science cannot coexist. Furthermore, just because religion was attempted to be taught in a controlled manner and falsified by a few old men does not mean we have to scrap it altogether.

There are still some things that science deems inexplicable, and are only explained by a higher consciousness.
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Religion can't be falsified; that's why it's incompatible with science.

Religion is about faith without observable evidence. Science runs on observable evidence. The two couldn't be more different.
 
brandonbaker said:
Because theists take for granted something that atheists are calling into question. Not a surprise that atheists are often more adamant in their beliefs.
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It's not about being adamant. It's about being unsatisfied with what other people choose to believe.

I don't have a problem with you being an atheist, but atheists consistently have a problem with people being theists. Christ, even theists don't care if a lot of people are atheists as long as they are left alone with their beliefs.

What gets tiring for people like me, is how you guys think you're righteous to judge other people. You're just as bad as the worst theists, but almost never as good as the good theists.

brandonbaker said:
A + theism = Without + God

To be an atheist simply means you don't believe in God. In and of itself, irrespective of atheists, there is nothing about atheism that lends itself to dogma.
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Oh, I get that. I am an an-archist. My problem isn't with atheism, it is with atheists. If you don't believe in God, great! If you believe in God, great!

I care about how you act, and I think this thread is a good example of how a lot of decent people, theist or not, are tired of how arrogant and overbearing atheists are. You guys are the Scientologists of the theism debate.

brandonbaker said:
Sure, there are dogmatic atheists as there are non-dogmatic Christians. There are exceptions to every trend. But this doesn't negate the fact that religion and dogma are intricately linked. Atheism is just a lack of a belief, nothing more.
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Atheists have a belief. They believe that God doesn't exist.

They are just as adamant and annoying about that as theists can be about the existence of God.

As an aside on the way out, atheists are annoying because so many believe in the secular state. The state is the greatest murderer and tyrant in our lifetimes, and atheists by and large, are huge supporters of the state as a way of pushing back on theists.

It is like your theory how theists are likely to behave worse than atheists. You tell me who has killed more people in the last 200 years, religion or secular government?

But again, it's not about morals. It's not about living rationally, peacefully and intelligently. It's about a game of comeuppance, to see which believer's beliefs can be more right than the next.

I don't want to live in a world with dangerous and violent people. I don't care what they believe, as long as they are nice to be around.

You guys don't care what evil people do, you care most about people believing in something that would compromise your identity if true. Ultimately, this sort of superficial power analysis is why we can't have nice things (peace, markets, freedom).

brandonbaker said:
Epistemology is a philosophical debate, not a scientific one. Scientists have already settled the epistemology debate and have decided on empiricism.
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Epistemology is not a debate, and it has not been settled.

You might want to invest some time in philosophy, because claiming to know what you can't know isn't empiricism, it's foolish.

This is my last post to this thread for obvious reasons. You're welcome to reply for the record, I am unsubbing.
 
guerilla said:
but atheists consistently have a problem with people being theists. Christ, even theists don't care if a lot of people are atheists as long as they are left alone with their beliefs.
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Do you completely ignore the political influence religion has? Have you never been approached by a person wanting to push their religion on you? Do you ignore the indoctrination of millions of children that theism brings? As someone so adamantly opposed to violence, I would think child abuse on a massive scale would unsettle you.

I don't think that being a condescending jackass is the best way to go about handling religion, but it certainly needs to be handled. People are growing to be less and less religious though, so there is a light at the end of the tunnel.
 
guerilla said:
It's not about being adamant. It's about being unsatisfied with what other people choose to believe.

I don't have a problem with you being an atheist, but atheists consistently have a problem with people being theists. Christ, even theists don't care if a lot of people are atheists as long as they are left alone with their beliefs.
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Sure about that?

guerilla said:
What gets tiring for people like me, is how you guys think you're righteous to judge other people. You're just as bad as the worst theists, but almost never as good as the good theists.
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Easy there with the "you guys." I'm not claiming any kind of righteousness. My only point this entire thread was that the real problem is when people cling to beliefs without reason. Many theists and atheists are innocent of this, and many theists and atheist are guilty. Religion, by nature, tends to encourage dogma, and that is a problem for a society that elects leaders to make decisions in this country.

I'm not judging other people, I'm judging an idea, dogma.

guerilla said:
Oh, I get that. I am an an-archist. My problem isn't with atheism, it is with atheists. If you don't believe in God, great! If you believe in God, great!

I care about how you act, and I think this thread is a good example of how a lot of decent people, theist or not, are tired of how arrogant and overbearing atheists are. You guys are the Scientologists of the theism debate.

...

Atheists have a belief. They believe that God doesn't exist.

They are just as adamant and annoying about that as theists can be about the existence of God.

As an aside on the way out, atheists are annoying because so many believe in the secular state. The state is the greatest murderer and tyrant in our lifetimes, and atheists by and large, are huge supporters of the state as a way of pushing back on theists.
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Sounds like you're the one with anger against atheists/theists. I've been talking about atheism/theism, as ideas.

guerilla said:
It is like your theory...
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Whose theory? Certainly not mine.

guerilla said:
But again, it's not about morals. It's not about living rationally, peacefully and intelligently. It's about a game of comeuppance, to see which believer's beliefs can be more right than the next.

I don't want to live in a world with dangerous and violent people. I don't care what they believe, as long as they are nice to be around.

You guys don't care what evil people do, you care most about people believing in something that would compromise your identity if true. Ultimately, this sort of superficial power analysis is why we can't have nice things (peace, markets, freedom).
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Of course all that matters is what people do. But as SUP3RNOVA said, you're acting like religion doesn't play a role in influencing what people do.

For someone who always touts incentives, you're ignoring quite a big one here.

guerilla said:
Epistemology is not a debate, and it has not been settled.
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Straight from the Wiki article you linked:

Much of the debate in this field has focused on analyzing the nature of knowledge and how it relates to connected notions such as truth, belief, and justification.
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Among philosophers, no, the debate hasn't been settled (are philosophical debates ever settled?). Among scientists, it certainly has. Empiricism is a major contender in the epistemological debate among philosophers, and it is defined as "the practice of relying on observation and experiment."

In other words, science.

You might want to invest some time in philosophy, because claiming to know what you can't know isn't empiricism, it's foolish.
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Ad hominem, but OK.

I've studied plenty of philosophy, as I assume you have as well.

Scientists take an agnostic stance on the big cosmological questions until further evidence. Science doesn't claim to know how the universe originated.

Religion is another story.
 
And this one is just for the lols.

guerilla said:
are tired of how arrogant and overbearing atheists are
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Tired of arrogance? Perhaps you wore yourself out in this thread.

What gets tiring for people like me, is how you guys think you're righteous
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You're just as bad as the worst theists, but almost never as good as the good theists.
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You guys are the Scientologists of the theism debate.
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You guys don't care what evil people do
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You might want to invest some time in philosophy
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And then just to clear something up

Atheists have a belief. They believe that God doesn't exist.
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No, atheists have disbelief. While some hardliners would assert that God doesn't exist, most atheists do not.

The belief that religious people have is completely different than the "belief" atheists have. You're misusing the term.
 
People always blame religion and say it is responsible for more human death and misery than any other thing in the world... but what they forget is that up until recently it was so intimately tied with politics that there really was no distinction.

The crusades were religious yes, but more so they were political. Again, there was no real distinction between politics and religion. Your religion was your politics and vice versa.

What is truly bad is when people align themselves with a certain group, cause, religion, nation, idea, moral stance, etc... and then are so bound up in it that they are willing to dominate, murder, go to war, and oppress others in the name of that noble cause. These people are mostly well meaning and truly believe in their cause, or feel they have justification... and that is what is really scary.

If you get rid of Religion, it won't solve the problem, this human tendency will simply manifest itself in another area. As we've already seen...
 
The great atheists Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao are responsible for far more deaths than christians and muhammedaneans combined. And yes, Stalin (probably the others) definitely killed people in the name of atheism. They slaughtered plenty of religious people for the sole reason that they were religious.
 
^ As long as you're not blaming atheism, then you have a point. It's the fanatical alignment with an idea that is the problem, whether that idea is religious, political, philosophical, or whatever... comes secondary to the tendency for human beings to identify themselves with something so passionately that they are willing to do some crazy evil shit, all in the name of something they think is good for the world.

Now if we could just cleanse the earth of everyone who is intolerant of others then we will finally get shit sorted out... who's with me!!??
 
rusvik said:
The great atheists Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao are responsible for far more deaths than christians and muhammedaneans combined. And yes, Stalin (probably the others) definitely killed people in the name of atheism. They slaughtered plenty of religious people for the sole reason that they were religious.
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that wasn't because of atheism, that was because of blind faith. blind faith in anything is bad, whether it's a regime or a religion.
 
For all you athiests going to hell:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXtVzj9y-bo]Dane Cook - Sneezing Atheist - YouTube[/ame]

Remember this:
"Matter cannot make its self from nothing", God does exist. Y'all need Jesus. lol.

begin lol's @ Dresden below.
 
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