Bondholder furious over GM bankruptcy

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I don't feel sorry for her or anyone else like her.. its a gamble. Sometimes ya win, sometimes you lose. Suck it up, learn your lesson and get on with your life.

Is it fair that the gov says fuck the small people and focuses on the majority big boy investors? No. But life isn't fair. They are the large investors who own the majority of the corp's stocks. Its expected that they obviously get the most attention, and there is nothing new about that. You'd expect the same treatment if you were them.
 


To explain the Bond Holders' side:

GM Bondholders Unite Official Website - Learn about our effort to organize GM retail bondholders in order to defend our - Pressrelease

"Bonds are popular “conservative” investments because of the protections outlined in their covenants, which show where bondholders stand in the event of a restructuring or bankruptcy. In return for this security – as outlined in the U.S. Bankruptcy Code and protected by the U.S. Constitution – bond investors agree to receive a lower rate of return than they would have otherwise.
...

What’s more, the long-term implications of this “offer” are far greater than the life savings, retirement funds and quality of life we are already likely to lose. By choosing who gets paid more and who gets paid less, instead of adhering to bond covenants and the bankruptcy code, our leaders have chosen the arbitrary rule of man over the established rule of law, a dangerously slippery slope."

I don't think what the government has done to these people is legal.:glowingeyes_sml:
 
Oh yes, take a look at the credentials of 1 of the top 3 people in charge of GM now.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/01/business/01deese.html

This is insane. This boy doesn't have the experience or understanding to be in charge of something like this .... but Obama put him there right after the election parties were over. No wonder this is such a mess. No wonder the Bold Holders are taking it in the rear.

The Bond Market will collapse. If the government gets away with this, no one is going to invest in Bonds anymore. You better start caring about the Bond Holders.
 
I don't feel sorry for her or anyone else like her.. its a gamble. Sometimes ya win, sometimes you lose. Suck it up, learn your lesson and get on with your life.

Is it fair that the gov says fuck the small people and focuses on the majority big boy investors? No. But life isn't fair. They are the large investors who own the majority of the corp's stocks. Its expected that they obviously get the most attention, and there is nothing new about that. You'd expect the same treatment if you were them.

I would not expect the same treatment.

There is an existing structure that all investors, whether individual or institutional, use to partially identify risk before investing. Part of that structure is represented by what happens to shareholders and bondholders in the event a company BK's.

Much is left to the discretion of the BK judge as he dismantles operations as fluidly as possible. But, not everything is left to the judge. Senior secured debtholders are first in line with regards to receiving funds from the sale of assets or ownership in a new venture. If senior secured positions exist, they should be honored. If they don't, it's less an issue.

Some of the public's anger stems from what they perceive as the government's bastardization of this process. They cannot break contracts like this. It is illegal and penetrates to the core of our markets.

Of course, the market is not pure. Insider trading happens often. And frankly, I don't know if senior secured positions even exist (at least, those senior to the UAW's unsecured position). If there are, this is one of the most blatant examples of disregard for the existing structure we have seen in the last decade.

What is happening is sad. It is discouraging. It will have a long-term impact on how investors consider risk vs. reward and how much compensation they'll demand in the future to loan money to companies.
 
Feel free to correct me as I'm not sure I can remember that far back - the only really guaranteed bonds are t-bills?

Do you think at this point in time it would be wise to invest in the Govt? Isn't a guarantee only good while the govt is around?
 
Unless your the UAW or a big financial supporter of BO, then expect to get fucked. What is happening here is Fascism, plain and simple.
 
Some of the public's anger stems from what they perceive as the government's bastardization of this process. They cannot break contracts like this. It is illegal and penetrates to the core of our markets.
Indeed the right to contract, freely and voluntarily is the foundation of a free society. When you undermine contract, you might as well be undermining the right to life, because life in a complex society cannot exist without trade, and trade cannot exist without contract.

Of course, the market is not pure. Insider trading happens often. And frankly, I don't know if senior secured positions even exist (at least, those senior to the UAW's unsecured position). If there are, this is one of the most blatant examples of disregard for the existing structure we have seen in the last decade.
The failure to prosecute fraud, while undermining contract means the entire system has no foundation. Fraud is not a part of a free market.

The market is not pure, precisely because there is so much intervention from regulation and policy. The financial markets are some of the most regulated markets anywhere, so when people say the problem was the market or too little regulation, then they are completely clueless.

What has failed, is government enforcing contract, and punishing fraud. They claim to be in charge as the regulatory monopoly, then clearly all of the market failures are related to their lack of performance.

FYI, trademark and I are on a similar page here. I am not disagreeing with him, just adding to his comments.
 
whoaa....

I don't feel sorry for her or anyone else like her.. its a gamble. Sometimes ya win, sometimes you lose. Suck it up, learn your lesson and get on with your life.

Is it fair that the gov says fuck the small people and focuses on the majority big boy investors? No. But life isn't fair. They are the large investors who own the majority of the corp's stocks. Its expected that they obviously get the most attention, and there is nothing new about that. You'd expect the same treatment if you were them.

Jon, I have to say this but it sounds like you don't really care what is happening here. Saying you don't feel sorry when government tramples on a persons rights and basically fucks you over and over, just wait until you get a "touch" from the gubermint... I can't believe as a business owner you would be so complacent...
 
I'm sure that if the Gubbermint was to ensure that all the bond holders got their money back as well as buying 60% of the company, paying the unions, etc. etc. The same paper would be running a story on how the American public are the ones to ultimately fund this and how they were ripped off and are supporting private enterprise.

You can't please everyone...
 
ahh fuck it, i changed my mind. who cares about this pile of shit, we all know it's a major fuckup to save this company.
 
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