Cap and trade bullshit

I really wish the discussion was started without someone like Glenn Beck. I can't think of a bigger douche other than that crazy lady on Fox who starts crying every time something nasty happens to children or soldiers.

waste can be corrected with efficiency. It shouldn't be addressed by making everyone poorer and forcing them to give up their quality of life.
Couldn't agree more with the efficiency part. As for the giving up quality of life... is it really so painful to hang your laundry instead of tossing it in the dryer?

Efficiency will come with smarter investment and better tax breaks. If energy prices are going up, give people the tools to help bring the net cost to consumers down to zero. Sounds like a better way to spend stimulus $'s to me. But all that said, a little sacrifice here and there would be nice too.
 


So what do you guys imagine will happen in a state like mine (Ohio) where 75%+ Of our power comes from coal power plants AND the fact we have a 10%+ Unemployment rate?

So , what happens when you tell someone that doesn't have a job anyways he's gonna be spending double what he normally did for electricity?

Also , tell me what happens when you make the senior citizen's bill double in the summer when they run the AC? It's a simple answer, and I see it every year WITHOUT a increase in electricity bills - They die......by the dozens.

So, the US Government is literally Killing & Taking our money so they can grab power & votes by forcing us to go through them for every part of our lives.
 
ObamaChange.jpg


Whooopsie!
1132114064-00.jpg
 
Cap and trade is about making polluters either:
- pay for the damage they are doing to the environment (i.e. us people who have to breathe in the pollution)
- or reduce their emmissions (in this case they may be able to profit by selling off the pollution permits they have).

This way, if it really is very hard for them to avoid polluting, fine. They pay for the privelige. If they can avoid polluting fairly cheaply, they avoid polluting and sell their permits to someone who cannot easliy avoid polluting.

It worked very well with Sulfur Dioxide (SO2)pollution. Power companies with coal-fired power stations siad it would be very expensive to cut SO2 pollution. When faced with the choice of buying pollution permits or just cutting their pollution, they decided just to cut the pollution. The cost of SO2 pollution permits has gone way down now. No-one wants them because it is actually so cheap to avoid polluting anyway. In other words, the power companies were bluffing when they said it would be so hard to cut SO2 pollution.

so basically what you're saying is, is that industry will pay more, and thereby pass the cost onto the consumer? no way! :uhoh2:
 
Couldn't agree more with the efficiency part. As for the giving up quality of life... is it really so painful to hang your laundry instead of tossing it in the dryer?
Sure it is. It's a waste of time. Why not give up the microwave and cook food over an open fire? Or why not shave with a straight blade and give up the Remington?

Why not take the AC out of cars, and drive with the windows down? Or wear extra clothes in the winter and remove the heater? Your computer? Learn how to write letters by hand again son.

This is a direct transfer of the quality of life (prosperity) of the people, to their masters. Nothing less. There is no economic or environmental reason to justify what is basically open theft.
 
Anybody notice how the government has no intention to impose green policies on its own departments?
 
As for the giving up quality of life... is it really so painful to hang your laundry instead of tossing it in the dryer?
Sure it is. It's a waste of time. Why not give up the microwave and cook food over an open fire? Or why not shave with a straight blade and give up the Remington?

First of all, I'd rather not get hung up on one or the other specific example. In the big picture, there's still a lot of energy wasted in this country that could easily be saved without significantly impacting quality of life.

That said, Guerilla, your counter examples hardly work. A dryer may be invaluable to a big family (lots of laundry) in a cold and moist area where it takes forever to dry clothes in the air. But either way, you can do other stuff in between. The only personal time you save is starting the dryer (20 sec) vs hanging clothes (3-5 min). For such minor saving, it is still a convenience that costs a lot of extra energy. But I highly doubt that a microwave costs a lot of extra energy compared to cooking over an open flame. In fact it probably helps you save.

Disposable place settings are cheaper (in energy) to produce, and they don't require sanitation or cleaning, and they can't be used as weapons, or shatter and cut someone.

IIRC, Brown bags have a higher energy cost to produce than plastic bags.
You do remember correctly about paper bags, but that was never mentioned here.

As for disposable cups etc., a glass becomes more efficient than a paper cup after 15 uses. (Source: University of Victoria study by Prof. Martin B. Hocking, takes in account manufacturing and cleaning costs. I only have it in paper.) Should be no problem for a restaurant. Also, restaurants can use highly efficient dishwashers that use e.g. the hot rinsing water from one cycle for the main wash in the next cycle. Seen myself when I worked as a bartender in Germany. And for safety, I think Americans should stop treating themselves like children. Plastic cups in a classy night club would be unthinkable in Germany and during the 3 years I worked there, I can't remember a single serious injury.

Once we're at that topic, check out this video:
Chris Jordan pictures some shocking stats | Video on TED.com

it will cost each family $2000 extra a year.
... only if you keep going around wasting energy left and right. Read my first post again. For the avrg American, it should be easy to offset higher energy prices by changing some habits. Get used to flicking the light off when you leave a room and turning it on again when you re-enter. Get a cover for the hot tub in your apartment complex for when it's not in use, rather than having it steam heat into the sky all night long. Hardly an impact on your quality of life. Same with talking an 8-min walk instead of driving. It may even help keeping your girth in check. :-)

Have a look at this:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/pdf/pages/sec11_6.pdf
The US has 4.6% of the world's population, yet consumes over 21% of the worlds energy. Per capita consumption here leaves every other country in the dust, incl the developed countries of Western Europe - not something to be proud of.

Now if you insist that your "quality of life" should include the right to thoughtless waste of energy, let me ask you this: Assuming you'd be fair enough to grant everyone the same right, what do you think would happen when all the developing nations started consuming like we do? Imagine the 1.3 billion in China and the 1.2 bn in India all driving a car to pick up a DVD around the block! And not just any car, but a nice and cushy SUV. They all insisting on dryers to save 5 minutes. Or they all starting to drink bottled water. Did you know it takes 1/4 bottle oil to bring 1 bottle of water to you? The same oil they make gasoline of? (This is actually a real peeve of mine. Drinking 8 glasses of water a day from tap, which is perfectly fine in most US municipalities, costs you 49 cents a year. The same amount in bottled water costs you 1,400 dollars. How's that for savings?)

Are you going to tell those people they cannot aspire to the same lifestyle we have? You can say you don't give a damn about the Chinese or Indians, but the point is, as they keep developing they will force changes onto us whether we like it or not. There is no inherent right to cheap energy for the US or anyone. There are only so much resources to go around and the US cannot keep consuming 21% of the world's energy with only 4.6% of the world's population. If measures like the one discussed here encourage a more thoughtful use of energy, so be it.
 
... So, the US Government is literally Killing & Taking our money so they can grab power & votes by forcing us to go through them for every part of our lives.
This doesn't make much sense. How do they grab votes exactly? By forcing you to go through them for every part of your live?

Last time I checked you could still vote for whoever you want.
 
That said, Guerilla, your counter examples hardly work. A dryer may be invaluable to a big family (lots of laundry) in a cold and moist area where it takes forever to dry clothes in the air. But either way, you can do other stuff in between. The only personal time you save is starting the dryer (20 sec) vs hanging clothes (3-5 min). For such minor saving, it is still a convenience that costs a lot of extra energy. But I highly doubt that a microwave costs a lot of extra energy compared to cooking over an open flame. In fact it probably helps you save.

you're kidding, right? by cooking over an open flame, I believe he meant making a fire in your yard. Gathering wood, setting up a proper fire, and cooking over it. That's an open flame.

Drying clothes outside does take much longer than using a dryer, and if you're using a natural gas heat dryer, they're much more efficient than a standard electric dryer.

Plus, you're skirting the point. The point is this legislation is bullshit. We should incentivize energy efficiency, not be a nanny state.
 
We should incentivize energy efficiency, not be a nanny state.
Exactly! This is a direct transfer of wealth from the citizens to the political class and politically connected.

This is the approach of legislating against the sun to keep the candle makers in business. The idea is to promote cleaner energy so we can use even more, not to prohibit energy use by pricing it out of the market.

The downside of taxes, as opposed to high costs arrived at in the market, is that taxes also disincentivize the creation of alternate fuels NATURALLY.

Now alternative energy will entirely be politicized and only available to those who can get a grant or subsidy (and kick back to a politician).

Meanwhile, the solution (nuclear) is staring everyone in the face.
 
Meanwhile, the solution (nuclear) is staring everyone in the face.

This is dead on. Nuclear energy is the only energy source that has the ability to create more energy than was put into it which will make the energy dirt cheap. In addition, the nuclear reactors themselves are very clean... the only pollutants being radioactive waste (which can be dealt with without inadvertently releasing it into the environment).

If the government was really concerned about pollution they would encourage the expansion of business (especially with nuclear energy). This would help the environment much more than this cap and trade bullshit while also helping our economy instead of shitting on it.
 
you're kidding, right? by cooking over an open flame, I believe he meant making a fire in your yard. Gathering wood, setting up a proper fire, and cooking over it. That's an open flame.

Drying clothes outside does take much longer than using a dryer, and if you're using a natural gas heat dryer, they're much more efficient than a standard electric dryer.
I said I don't wanna get hung up on specific examples, but since you ask: No, I'm not kidding. Guerilla said if we should give up the dryer to save energy, we may as well give up the microwave too. That implies that the microwave also wastes energy compared to cooking over open fire. I don't think it does. Gathering wood, setting up the fire, like you said, and then having half the heat pass by the pot uses more energy than the microwave. That's why the example doesn't work.

Drying clothes outside takes longer, but like I said, you can do other stuff during that time, just like you do other stuff while the dryer is working. The only real difference in terms of your actual personal time is loading the dryer vs hanging the clothes.

Plus, you're skirting the point. The point is this legislation is bullshit. We should incentivize energy efficiency, not be a nanny state.
I don't think cap and trade is the best solution, but higher energy prices do incentivize energy efficiency and penalize waste. That's not a bad thing. I'm just tired of people whining around when gas or power prices rise. If you're anything like an average American, you have plenty of ways to offset that.

BTW, I like nuclear.
 
^^^(reference to nuclear)
Not with the environmental wackos around. The technology is much safer and better these days. Its virtually perfect - Imagine the Jobs and Extra saving (just what the economy needs). With cheap electricity I might even consider buying an electric car.
 
These are scary times we are living in right now. One bill after another is being passed without Congress even reading them. To understand how out of touch Henry Waxman is, watch this short video. It is from the documentary Bigger Stronger Faster, which is about steroids. This is an interview with Waxman, who was spearheading the investigation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxLNKnLaDG8

Waxman doesn't even know the legal drinking age in the U.S. or if steroids are illegal. Are you F*CKING KIDDING ME!!!
 
Meanwhile, the solution (nuclear) is staring everyone in the face.

Won't happen. Thanks to a lot of fear-mongering by the environmental fucktards, your common person seems to think that nuclear reactors can explode like bombs at any time.

That and Nevada is stonewalling all attempts to to store waste in their mountains. Did you know that the containers nuclear waste is stored in are essentially impossible to break open? As in, can be stuck in front of a moving train and still remain intact? Tested and proven, but don't let rational though motivate you: We needs to protect our childrens.
 
An incentive for using less energy would be difficult for people already used to having an abundance of it.
That said, Germany's got some good ideas, particularly the one about payng people for money that they put back into the grid via solar panels or wind turbines on their own properties. That would be a good incentive to get people n the states to start putting panels or windmills on the roof, and it also helps to proof the house against power outtages.

I'm all for nuclear though, but it'd have to be the right kind.
Breeder or Tokamak reactors are simply amazing in terms of efficiency and power output, and provided you ensure they're getting regular maintenance and servicing, they're as safe as... a very safe thing.
(I was going to say "banks", or "houses", but those things haven't been very safe lately)

This is dead on. Nuclear energy is the only energy source that has the ability to create more energy than was put into it which will make the energy dirt cheap.
Hi, have you met my friend, the First Law of Thermodynamics? He thinks you're stupid.