Fuck, is there such a thing as "Whitehat SEO"?
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The only whitehat link building I know is not to pay for a link. i.e someone will link to you without even you knowing about it - until you check analytics and find it source of traffic or see the domain in GWT.
These types of links go to authority or sites already ranking on top, not to a new startup trying to make a quick buck. The authority paid to be such, and sites ranking on top also paid to be there. You want a free ride?
SEOMOz guys make a living of deluding dump "IMs" that they can make it to the top without spaming. They will not be popular otherwise.
These types of links go to authority or sites already ranking on top, not to a new startup trying to make a quick buck. The authority paid to be such, and sites ranking on top also paid to be there. You want a free ride?
SEOMOz guys make a living of deluding dump "IMs" that they can make it to the top without spaming. They will not be popular otherwise.
It's all white hat till google slams you.
btw and fwiw when I started out FF racing I came in second Fourteen fucking times before I started to win. 14 times. You know what I finally realized -- in order to win you gotta be prepared to crash out all the time, everywhere. Not really taking stupid risks, but measured ones.
Yeah, I'm new to seo. And I have have backup domains registered and ready to go. And it would suck to have to create new content. But I hate coming in second. My main site is on page 1 now for its description and I just rolled the dice again. A measured risk, but still a risk.
btw and fwiw when I started out FF racing I came in second Fourteen fucking times before I started to win. 14 times. You know what I finally realized -- in order to win you gotta be prepared to crash out all the time, everywhere. Not really taking stupid risks, but measured ones.
Yeah, I'm new to seo. And I have have backup domains registered and ready to go. And it would suck to have to create new content. But I hate coming in second. My main site is on page 1 now for its description and I just rolled the dice again. A measured risk, but still a risk.
There's no such thing as White hate SEO. As soon as you place your backlink somewhere, you are manipulating the search engines. Though if you don't have any backlinks then you won't be found and ranked.
The only way you can do "white hat" SEO is by going viral, but those backlinks will be mostly no follow still you will get traffic from it.
The only way you can do "white hat" SEO is by going viral, but those backlinks will be mostly no follow still you will get traffic from it.
Exactly. It's all the same game, just that the little guys are vilified in SEO. Screw it all, get money.
MarkCharles
Trustworthy Newbie
Sort of ( I suspect).
Exactly!
But when you stand out from the liars because what you're selling is what they want to buy (even if they don't need it) you're doing Google a favour. When you say you're selling cars to the guy looking for cars, but you're really selling bread - you're gaming the guy - in the long-shot hope he'll buy bread instead of a car. You game him, you're then gaming Google. When your conversion rates are high - Google is delivering "relevant" search results - therefore you cannot be gaming the system.
[You all probably know all this stuff - but for the sake of discussion....]
As to the colour of a "hat"...
You can do some White Hat... but the products/services that you can do it for are few and far between - depending on how much time you have.
If something is unknown - and you have no "known" "hook" to hang it off - then volume and illusion are required for fast results (all the best cons are big, and have been around for a long time - that's why they work).
When you have to promote something that doesn't have a unique name (sliced bread) then Gray hat is like annoying radio or television ads and letterbox bombing - it bangs a name into the audiences head. It's annoying, but it's not illegal/illegitimate.
That way you can then use White/Gray hat to rank - because people associate Buttercup with sliced bread - and you can own the Buttercup search results with a few advertising dollars.
White hat winning for more than one product is a bit harder - here's a theoretical possibility (bear in mind I have to modify, slightly, actual examples to protect my own work)
Eg. Eric Van Doobie is an unusual name - so it can become a brand fairly easily.
(note I'm not talking about "what" Eric Van Doobie does - just the name). That's where (I believe) time becomes a factor (let's say it's part of Google's "providence" factor)
Say Eric Van Doobie posts on a mailing lists about, um, restoring camper vans - and he has a little signature that never changes "Eric Van Doobie - CamperVan King". He also has a gmail account "Eric.Van.Doobie.CamperVan.King@gmail" - which gives him a Google+ account - and he has his LinkedIn basic account (with fuck all details). Now Google Groups, gmane and Yahoo groups (and various other list mirrors/parasites) repost those posts. If Eric sits just slightly ahead of events he can answer peoples questions on the Van Restoring list because he actually does know about restoring camper vans - otherwise he simply searching Google for an answer (it's what many of those people do - most of the posters don't know how to search). He doesn't post a lot - maybe an hour a day, five days a week.
Over and over people will post the same fucking question because they're too dumb to search or read, (and/or lazy). So every now and then Eric Van Doobie - CamperVan King" answers a post with a link to one of his previous posts.... and every now and then some else does the same thing - or quotes him in a blog. All of Eric's posts are more than a few lines. Think of the posts as sales pitches - and references to them (including thank yous) as conversions. Spam posts are ignored by other posters (don't become viewed as "conversations") - and have a similar search relevance value as trying to pitch Ferraris to bums.
And occasionally Eric Van Doobie - CamperVan King, posts some of the more common answers to questions in his Google+ feed.... which is good, especially if occasionally he points people at it in his posts, and really good if others point to it.
And when he builds a CamperVan site he puts his name, and email in the footer of every page. The links between his sites and his other "work" is like a mutual admiration society.
Eric is also pretty quick to spot a trend - and when a new movie star is considered hot he pays to have a theme created with a picture of her looking slutty in a restored camper van, and he puts it up on Mozilla as a free theme. In his developer profile he has a discrete link to his site, and of course, he uses his classic signature. "Eric Doobie - CamperVan King".
Eric Van Doobie - CamperVan King is now a brand. And he's mastered reality - because he's no longer someone who says he's the CamperVan King. He is.
His name has rank (and Weight), and it never get penalised (his juice is major).
Still all "White Hat" - slow to build, but never fades, just gets stronger (most of those backlinks won't vanish, maybe archived, but they still accrue in value). Doesn't matter that Eric did all this just to get weight - everything he did has value. That's not gaming the system any-more than doing charity work using your real name so people will think you give a shit what they think of you, or carrying out the garbage so you get a charity fuck (as opposed to lying and saying her you love eating her yeast, and no, you don't look like mutton dressed as lamb)
And when Eric Van Doobie - CamperVan King does a promotion for the new Tracker Van... the search engines create a huge index of occurrences of the words "Tracker Van" - then they look for factors to rank that list - what's NEAR on the page comes before where that page is, and the "Eric Van Doobie - CamperVan King" factor will have a major effect (leverage).
In the above example "Eric Van Doobie - CamperVan King" would have ranked in the top five as a phrase with only a couple of Google+ posts, or a couple of restoring camper van posts. That's because Google has indexed it at least once, and it's unique.
But with just a few hundred restoring camper van posts (over a year, plus they are reposted by gmane etc), plus his dozen FAQ posts on Google+ and his Mozilla themes.... now "Doobie" or "CamperVan" alone will relate to "Eric Van Doobie - CamperVan King". And any searched term NEAR (close on the page) to Eric Van Doobie - CamperVan King will have very high ranking.
That's ranking in the preliminary list - not the end results list. The last twenty or so of Google's factor in their ranking algorithm are penalty ones - and they're dependant on situation. eg if it's a website - page speed, pictures, tags with the pictures, accessibility, internal links, site map, legal code, content. etc. They also have another index they refer to that final ranking - that include previous penalties, duplicated content sites, sort of a blacklist (not all their bots declare themselves as bots - they now spot a lot of the "morphing" sites).
NOTE: I know bugger all about Affiliate Marketing - but I've been scoring first page results for websites and companies for a long time. And no, I'm not looking for (or taking) SEO work. It's part of what I do for clients - and I've got enough of those.
Nothing personal Eric - I've enjoyed your posts (and learned a lot) you just made the comments that motivated me to try and express what I do to rank clients sites. I only do White Hat - because it's what I know. Black Hat is another field.
There is such a thing as White Hat - it does work, but it's not always appropriate. Nor are things real simple - if say the product is New Balance wristbands - then White Hat is a waste of time. It's better suited to products which aren't crap. If you're starting a chain of businesses that are going to shut down after a month (before the customers lynch you) you rent, and don't pay the last months rent.
Hopefully this will stimulate some interesting, and informative discussion.
It's late - I don't have time to properly proof read this.
Now I better go and carry out that garbage.... ;-p
white hat is the absence of seo. It exists in a virtual vaccuum ... all these votes (links) are unsolicited, genuine and legit. Obviously a policy fail on their part which means even white hats are manipulators.
done deal
done deal
(O_o)
H̨̼̩͐̑͆̀̚&
Sort of ( I suspect).
Exactly!
But when you stand out from the liars because what you're selling is what they want to buy (even if they don't need it) you're doing Google a favour. When you say you're selling cars to the guy looking for cars, but you're really selling bread - you're gaming the guy - in the long-shot hope he'll buy bread instead of a car. You game him, you're then gaming Google. When your conversion rates are high - Google is delivering "relevant" search results - therefore you cannot be gaming the system.
[You all probably know all this stuff - but for the sake of discussion....]
As to the colour of a "hat"...
You can do some White Hat... but the products/services that you can do it for are few and far between - depending on how much time you have.
If something is unknown - and you have no "known" "hook" to hang it off - then volume and illusion are required for fast results (all the best cons are big, and have been around for a long time - that's why they work).
When you have to promote something that doesn't have a unique name (sliced bread) then Gray hat is like annoying radio or television ads and letterbox bombing - it bangs a name into the audiences head. It's annoying, but it's not illegal/illegitimate.
That way you can then use White/Gray hat to rank - because people associate Buttercup with sliced bread - and you can own the Buttercup search results with a few advertising dollars.
White hat winning for more than one product is a bit harder - here's a theoretical possibility (bear in mind I have to modify, slightly, actual examples to protect my own work)
Eg. Eric Van Doobie is an unusual name - so it can become a brand fairly easily.
(note I'm not talking about "what" Eric Van Doobie does - just the name). That's where (I believe) time becomes a factor (let's say it's part of Google's "providence" factor)
Say Eric Van Doobie posts on a mailing lists about, um, restoring camper vans - and he has a little signature that never changes "Eric Van Doobie - CamperVan King". He also has a gmail account "Eric.Van.Doobie.CamperVan.King@gmail" - which gives him a Google+ account - and he has his LinkedIn basic account (with fuck all details). Now Google Groups, gmane and Yahoo groups (and various other list mirrors/parasites) repost those posts. If Eric sits just slightly ahead of events he can answer peoples questions on the Van Restoring list because he actually does know about restoring camper vans - otherwise he simply searching Google for an answer (it's what many of those people do - most of the posters don't know how to search). He doesn't post a lot - maybe an hour a day, five days a week.
Over and over people will post the same fucking question because they're too dumb to search or read, (and/or lazy). So every now and then Eric Van Doobie - CamperVan King" answers a post with a link to one of his previous posts.... and every now and then some else does the same thing - or quotes him in a blog. All of Eric's posts are more than a few lines. Think of the posts as sales pitches - and references to them (including thank yous) as conversions. Spam posts are ignored by other posters (don't become viewed as "conversations") - and have a similar search relevance value as trying to pitch Ferraris to bums.
And occasionally Eric Van Doobie - CamperVan King, posts some of the more common answers to questions in his Google+ feed.... which is good, especially if occasionally he points people at it in his posts, and really good if others point to it.
And when he builds a CamperVan site he puts his name, and email in the footer of every page. The links between his sites and his other "work" is like a mutual admiration society.
Eric is also pretty quick to spot a trend - and when a new movie star is considered hot he pays to have a theme created with a picture of her looking slutty in a restored camper van, and he puts it up on Mozilla as a free theme. In his developer profile he has a discrete link to his site, and of course, he uses his classic signature. "Eric Doobie - CamperVan King".
Eric Van Doobie - CamperVan King is now a brand. And he's mastered reality - because he's no longer someone who says he's the CamperVan King. He is.
His name has rank (and Weight), and it never get penalised (his juice is major).
Still all "White Hat" - slow to build, but never fades, just gets stronger (most of those backlinks won't vanish, maybe archived, but they still accrue in value). Doesn't matter that Eric did all this just to get weight - everything he did has value. That's not gaming the system any-more than doing charity work using your real name so people will think you give a shit what they think of you, or carrying out the garbage so you get a charity fuck (as opposed to lying and saying her you love eating her yeast, and no, you don't look like mutton dressed as lamb)
And when Eric Van Doobie - CamperVan King does a promotion for the new Tracker Van... the search engines create a huge index of occurrences of the words "Tracker Van" - then they look for factors to rank that list - what's NEAR on the page comes before where that page is, and the "Eric Van Doobie - CamperVan King" factor will have a major effect (leverage).
In the above example "Eric Van Doobie - CamperVan King" would have ranked in the top five as a phrase with only a couple of Google+ posts, or a couple of restoring camper van posts. That's because Google has indexed it at least once, and it's unique.
But with just a few hundred restoring camper van posts (over a year, plus they are reposted by gmane etc), plus his dozen FAQ posts on Google+ and his Mozilla themes.... now "Doobie" or "CamperVan" alone will relate to "Eric Van Doobie - CamperVan King". And any searched term NEAR (close on the page) to Eric Van Doobie - CamperVan King will have very high ranking.
That's ranking in the preliminary list - not the end results list. The last twenty or so of Google's factor in their ranking algorithm are penalty ones - and they're dependant on situation. eg if it's a website - page speed, pictures, tags with the pictures, accessibility, internal links, site map, legal code, content. etc. They also have another index they refer to that final ranking - that include previous penalties, duplicated content sites, sort of a blacklist (not all their bots declare themselves as bots - they now spot a lot of the "morphing" sites).
NOTE: I know bugger all about Affiliate Marketing - but I've been scoring first page results for websites and companies for a long time. And no, I'm not looking for (or taking) SEO work. It's part of what I do for clients - and I've got enough of those.
Nothing personal Eric - I've enjoyed your posts (and learned a lot) you just made the comments that motivated me to try and express what I do to rank clients sites. I only do White Hat - because it's what I know. Black Hat is another field.
There is such a thing as White Hat - it does work, but it's not always appropriate. Nor are things real simple - if say the product is New Balance wristbands - then White Hat is a waste of time. It's better suited to products which aren't crap. If you're starting a chain of businesses that are going to shut down after a month (before the customers lynch you) you rent, and don't pay the last months rent.
Hopefully this will stimulate some interesting, and informative discussion.
It's late - I don't have time to properly proof read this.
Now I better go and carry out that garbage.... ;-p
great post
That's the problem right there. Most SEO clients fall in that category IMHO.
I don't know man... I don't doubt that your strategy works for a micro-niche like campervans, but does it work for a client in Online Poker? In a highly competitive industry there is always tons of competitors that are "creating value" by providing tips, useful articles, answering questions in forums, social media content etc... usually these guys have a bunch of people employed full time to create content and spread it all over the place. Can you really compete with them on a smaller budget without using some gray hat? Highly doubt it.
Direct from Flickr:
"Pink Hat
Mike and I didn't want Google spotting that we're Black Hat, so here we are trying out a cunning new disguise!
N.B. just so there's no confusion "Black Hat" is a term for "sneaky" SEO (Search Egnine Optimization) tactics!"
...Now that's funny!
-=Chipmunk=-
MarkCharles
Trustworthy Newbie
I failed to express myself clearly there (problem with 10 minute after midnight rush posts).
The product in that example was the the promoter (Eric Van Doobie).
You could probably swap "CamperVan King" for "Marketing Master".
I doubt it per se. But then I'm not promoting my services ;-p
Some believe the customer is always right (and a sucker is born every minute). I believe the customer is always right but sometimes they're knocking on the wrong door.
Too much churn in the Online Poker market - if it's "Eric Van Doobie - PokerKing" then he can White Hat promote an Online Poker product or venue (provided he has sufficient gravity/prominence) by associating it with his name. There's a difference. Remember the KTel guy? He was always flogging a different product - it worked because he gave the product prominence
You (or who ever) only have a limited window for promoting high churn products - for which you need volume.
Either harness existing volume/prominence (a well known Poker player/celebrity - maybe the KTel guy) - or bombard people.
There's so many different voices/ads that you need to either stand above the others (visibility/credibility), or drown everyone else out.
When I've been asked to do work with flash-in-the-pan/high churn stuff I've just pointed the clients at Black/Gray Hats. I don't want to reduce my gravity/credibility with clients - but I can afford to. I keep clients because they get results - I get new ones because I have a reputation for integrity and results (the integrity is what the clients really crave, they just aren't aware of it - they want to feel good about themselves).
Some clients want to feel bad about themselves - as in, I'm Bad/Mean/Hard. Some products are best promoted as Bad (it gives you the winning edge - you will dominate/kill/destroy etc).
Daytime television shows are what I regard as BlackHat (credibility whores with recognition)
I'll try and get back to the subject in more detail, with some clearer examples when I get some time.
I'm in absolute agreement with you there - it gets back to your comment/question about the SEO spruiker at the start of this thread. He's talking bullshit.... sort of....
Those that see him as an authority, believe him - then it's true (he creates his own reality field) - but it's only true for people who purchase his services - not the product they want to promote. There's a difference. He's also in the business of taking their money - not selling their products. Again - there is a difference.
Look at the Italian fraudster who creates free energy from Cold Fusion - he continually fails, but his fans still believe him. They made a major emotional investment in him - and they can't see his constant failure. Literally. He never failed to deliver (in their eyes). The product is the power - which he never, ever, delivers. Doesn't stop him from making money (like all good con artists - he probably truly believes his bullshit on one level). The reasons why they want to believe him are another entire forum in itself.
Same with those who sell SEO and claim they always do White Hat, and that you can sell anything only using White Hat. Bullshit. (there's a market for bullshit - Hollywood has a major stake in it.).
But that's just my opinion. ;-)
The sophists will always disagree. That's the beauty of being a sophist - your opinions are the same as knowledge, and facts are a product of faith. For example - they don't need to study medicine for them to "know" as much, or more, about medicine than someone who has (studied medicine - like a doctor). They'll always find that "splinter in the eye" that blocks out anything contradictory.
It's a kind of "magical" thinking - similar to how people who follow a winning team believe they are winners (just because they barrack for a winning team). It's pretty much the core of marketing. What you're talking about (promoting Online Poker) is a mixture of advertising and marketing. The line between the two is blurry.
Marketing is the sound of a stick rattling in the swill bucket - George Orwell (from memory)
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It's all bullshit.
Of course, I lurk on the webmaster forums and watch matt cutts videos. It's important to take these white practices and exploit them the black way.
I've seen people build blog networks out of pure junk. Respun articles that make no sense that are posted daily automatically to be used in link pyramids. Guess what .... they work when done correctly!
I had a massive debate on a web design forum with a dude that was so pure you could call him benzoylmethylecgonine hydrochloride. It was a battle I couldn't win because the prick had his eyes filled with shit. Granted he ranked his clients sites, but he only did local SEO where the competition was abysmal.
Let them keep sniffing the white powder. It eventually ends in death when the black guys are on the block.
Of course, I lurk on the webmaster forums and watch matt cutts videos. It's important to take these white practices and exploit them the black way.
I've seen people build blog networks out of pure junk. Respun articles that make no sense that are posted daily automatically to be used in link pyramids. Guess what .... they work when done correctly!
I had a massive debate on a web design forum with a dude that was so pure you could call him benzoylmethylecgonine hydrochloride. It was a battle I couldn't win because the prick had his eyes filled with shit. Granted he ranked his clients sites, but he only did local SEO where the competition was abysmal.
Let them keep sniffing the white powder. It eventually ends in death when the black guys are on the block.
