HOLY SHIT BATMAN! Bound Delegates May Not be Bound at all!

lukep said:
Ardent, do you realize that you're arguing against the majority of the founding fathers about the need for a republic?

Do you really know better than them?

The fact of the matter is that a democracy will --->ALWAYS<---- become inhumane and then unstable. It's a certified fact for those who study history. The Ancient greeks were already teaching this fact!

The sad thing is that in the year 2000, the majority of americans still thought that a democracy is what they lived in despite everyone having to say the pledge of Allegiance to the flag at school. (Which clearly spells out that this is a republic.) Stupid peons...
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The founding fathers are not inerrant gods and what was acceptable and even progressive in the 18th century isn't automatically so today. Don't forget the founding fathers also declared that black people were worth 3/5 of a white person, that slavery was perfectly acceptable, that women were not entitled to vote and a number of other precepts we don't accept today.

Also, most of the founding fathers were deists and rejected Christianity. While I actually think deism has a lot going for it I suspect their views don't reflect what most Americans think today.
 


The world was what it was in those days, but it doesn't change the nature of government structure.

By the very most basic definition of a democracy, 51% of the population can vote to make the other 49% of their country their sex slaves... Sure, it might be hard to enforce but that's further proof of what a failed, stupid concept democracy is!

Whenever people realize that they can vote themselves money, the democracy is done. Completely ruined. It has happened to every democracy to date, bar none. The reason it is happening in such a limited fashion here (limited to the POTUS, SCOTUS, & Congress) is simply because our Republic stops the individual evildoers from taking it too far... They'll be out in a few years and the fickle voters can put a new face in to try their luck with.

While I'm all for NO government at all, pure anacrchy, even I can see that this is a far superior system to any democracy.

So especially now, when goldman sachs money is being spent by the truckload to buy voters for both Obomba and Robme at the same time, I see INFINITELY more wisdom in the republican system we use than any stupid, inhumane, and temporary thing that the masses all want because they have the IQ of a rodent.
 
lukep said:
The world was what it was in those days, but it doesn't change the nature of government structure.

By the very most basic definition of a democracy, 51% of the population can vote to make the other 49% of their country their sex slaves... Sure, it might be hard to enforce but that's further proof of what a failed, stupid concept democracy is!

Whenever people realize that they can vote themselves money, the democracy is done. Completely ruined. It has happened to every democracy to date, bar none. The reason it is happening in such a limited fashion here (limited to the POTUS, SCOTUS, & Congress) is simply because our Republic stops the individual evildoers from taking it too far... They'll be out in a few years and the fickle voters can put a new face in to try their luck with.

While I'm all for NO government at all, pure anacrchy, even I can see that this is a far superior system to any democracy.

So especially now, when goldman sachs money is being spent by the truckload to buy voters for both Obomba and Robme at the same time, I see INFINITELY more wisdom in the republican system we use than any stupid, inhumane, and temporary thing that the masses all want because they have the IQ of a rodent.
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Money isn't being given to Goldman Sachs and the banks because that's what the majority wants but because the minority actually have control.
 
Unarmed Gunman said:
Benjamin Franklin: When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.
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Sorry, but this is apparently a fake quote. I decided to look it up because the first half sounded more like a modern speaker than a founding father. Also, the concept of money was still different back then as a lot of people were farmers and such that would barter with each other.

John Adams: Democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.
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This one looks to be real, as it has a letter cited as a source. I thought it might have been fake though, as using murder and suicide as an analogy like that seems more like a modern thing to me.

Thomas Jefferson: A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where 51% of the people may take away the rights of the other 49%.
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Fake..

I didn't look up any of the others, but they seem more likely to be real going by the talking/writing style.
 
Mox, you know I love you bro, but do you always have to nitpick like that even when the overall point of his post was a really good thing?
 
Unarmed Gunman said:
Could be, I didn't source any of the quotes - just copypasta from somewhere. If so, my bad but the point still remains.
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I dunno Unarmed, if your info sources are so poor that you end up using bogus quotes it's hard to have faith in the various other "facts" you've used to support your argument - especially since you don't seem particularly perturbed or even embarrassed to have your quotes revealed as fake. Evidence matters.
 
ardent said:
I dunno Unarmed, if your info sources are so poor that you end up using bogus quotes it's hard to have faith in the various other "facts" you've used to support your argument - especially since you don't seem particularly perturbed or even embarrassed to have your quotes revealed as fake. Evidence matters.
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???

What facts did I present? America is a republic, not a democracy. That's indisputable.

The quotes simply indicate (the accurate ones anyway) the overall low regard that many of the founding fathers had for Democracy as a system of government. The quotes are kinda irrelevant though because if they liked democracy, then we'd have a democracy, right?

Was there something I posted that you need additional facts on?
 
Unarmed Gunman said:
@ardent - Not sure if you're trolling but if you want more info on the subject knock yourself out: An Important Distinction: Democracy versus Republic
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I'm not trolling, I'm just saying reliable evidence matters and when a campaign or group of advocates falls into the practise of using made up stuff or myth and not caring it's a problem. I'm sure you used those quotes in good faith, I'm just saying the well that you're drawing your water from is tainted.

In any case, why are you reifing a group of people from 1789? Even if the Founding Fathers felt that way why does it mean it's right today? As I said earlier, the Founding Fathers thought a lot of things that most Americans would reject today. If the Constitution was intended to be perfect and never changing there wouldn't be an amendment process or indeed a process by which to call a new Constitutional Convention.
 
ardent said:
In any case, why are you reifing a group of people from 1789? Even if the Founding Fathers felt that way why does it mean it's right today? As I said earlier, the Founding Fathers thought a lot of things that most Americans would reject today. If the Constitution was intended to be perfect and never changing there wouldn't be an amendment process or indeed a process by which to call a new Constitutional Convention.
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So little respect for so much awesomeness!

Wanna go throw some blue paint on the Mona lisa next??
 
Being a republic is about the best you can do to protect yourself from mob rule. But even in a republic the majority is going to get their way 90% of the time. It just provides an avenue for smaller groups to get their opinions heard, which is exactly what the Paul people are doing.

All systems have problems, but I'd rather live in one where the minority at least has an outlet rather than let the 51% have free reign to do whatever the fuck they want.
 
lukep said:
So little respect for so much awesomeness!

Wanna go throw some blue paint on the Mona lisa next??
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No but I wouldn't argue that art should be frozen at DaVinci.

I agree, the Constitution and Bill of Rights in particular were "awesome" advances but I think the Founding Fathers would be appalled by the notion that constitutional development should be frozen at 1789. It was a beginning, not an end. Indeed, if they felt the 1789 constitution was perfect there would never have been a Bill of Rights as they were, after all, amendments to the Constitution.

The ideal citizen of the Jeffersonian era was the Yeoman farmer and his economic vision was agrarian. Clearly, in many ways, the 1789 Constitution was designed for an America that no longer exists.
 
LBorbit said:
Being a republic is about the best you can do to protect yourself from mob rule. But even in a republic the majority is going to get their way 90% of the time. It just provides an avenue for smaller groups to get their opinions heard, which is exactly what the Paul people are doing.

All systems have problems, but I'd rather live in one where the minority at least has an outlet rather than let the 51% have free reign to do whatever the fuck they want.
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True, there need to be protections for the individuals and minority opinion which was a major accomplishment of the Bill of Rights that has been adopted by democracies generally. What countries are you thinking of (if any) when you're referring to democratic mob rule?
 
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