If you like your plan you can keep it, period

Sounds like Obama apologized yesterday. Not that he gives a shit. Was also reading how many of the top hospitals will be out of network for many plans. Looks like the have nots will no longer have access to the best medical treatment in the world.

obama's so sorry
 


I'm sure it's pummeling the big corps. My friend that is the VP of AutoZone said they have slashing employee hours across the country and pushing part-time positions like mad-men.
Same thing is happening to the other auto-parts stores. I can only imagine other industries.

Gonna see a whole of this happening, especially franchises removing full-time positions all together. Even before ObamaCare, it was already a trend that was growing at an alarming rate to help companies avoid having to provide any sort of benefits, but now it's going to get even worse.
 
Gonna see a whole of this happening, especially franchises removing full-time positions all together. Even before ObamaCare, it was already a trend that was growing at an alarming rate to help companies avoid having to provide any sort of benefits, but now it's going to get even worse.

Stop lying you conspiracy theorist. Obamacare will lead to more full time jobs
 
I don't know man, I'll def. read your links though. I am not going to say I'm infallible, only the stupid think their political position is intractably true.

There are many different ways he can charge 1/10 to 1/5 of the cost of surgeries elsewhere, probably because he either doesn't mind getting paid that much less (is he making as much as other Surgeons?) or he's not providing care for emergency uninsured. The latter being the a significant part of why charges are so high but insurance payouts are so low.

Yes, the guy is operating legally. Here is his pricing:

Procedures | Surgery Center of Oklahoma

You know a lot of economics jargon but very little economics. His first customers were Canadians because they could jump the queue and get healthcare immediately instead of months out. Most doctors think they have to accept insurance but this is slowly starting to change.

Riddle me this. How is he able to provide operations at 1/10th to 1/5th the price of competing hospitals? For the price of my annual Obamacare premium, I could afford one operation per YEAR at his facility. Please read that article on medical fascism.
 
This is simply not a problem for the insurance company's. Would you believe the majority of the profits an insurance company makes has nothing to do with premiums received minus claims paid? Insurance companies are required to keep reserves. About 15 years ago congress changed the requirements for the insurance companies to keep their reserves in super secure investments. I can't remember if it was part of glass stegal act. Either way just like with the banks, this gave the insurance industry the license to print money. It's not uncommon for an insurance company to pay out 90 to 105% of premiums and still be extremely profitable. Force the industry back to the old way to make profits and you start to fix healthcare.



Dropping A changes nothing. It's already illegal to drop someone based off of claims or preexisting conditions. Most when they loose insurance it's because 1 of 2 things. They can't afford the high rates. Or they changed jobs. If changing jobs they have cobra an 18 months to change with no preexisting penalty. The majority of the people that can't get new coverage had an opportunity at some point to obtain it.

As mentioned before this is what's Basically been happening and lead to most of the problems with healthcare

I'll have to verify but I am pretty sure the normal practice is to have lifetime benefit caps to effectively drop expensive sick people. This is what happens to most recurring claims I see for chronic illness ICD-CPT combinations on claims.
 
I'll have to verify but I am pretty sure the normal practice is to have lifetime benefit caps to effectively drop expensive sick people. This is what happens to most recurring claims I see for chronic illness ICD-CPT combinations on claims.

Using up your aggred upon coverage limits is not the same as dropping someone. It has been illegal to drop someone based on claims for a very long time.



Edit. Those lifetime benefit caps came into play around the same time the laws on the company reserves changed. I would have to go back and verify the details. Mid 90s so the beginning of the turmoil, around time HIPPA was enacted
 
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uuummmm... as guerilla pointed out, 20% of $500 is more than 50% of $100. Also, they can always change it latter. The trick in a negotiation is the make the other side *think* they won.



They don't give a shit about pre-existing conditions so long as everyone has to take them on, the costs is just passed on to their user base.

OK, I will admit that in general Insurance companies will get more customers as a number from what they had before because of the new insurance pool.

Take a look at the following conditions though:

1. 80% of what the end customer pays has to go to paying claim CPTs.

2. They have to accept anyone willing to pay for insurance, regardless of their health status.

3. They have to compete to get to the new pool

4. The new pool is generally of low quality business (low incomes, pre-existings). The exception is young people, these people will end up bearing costs. Which is how insurance pools are supposed to work.

Also no one has addressed the end result, that effectively more people will end up joining the insurance pool and paying in at least some amount and start getting needed and recommended care.

Do you know how why the costs are so high for medical care? Lets address that. I have a sanitized SQL DB sitting here with 280 medical centers around the country with around 2000 doctors/providers and all of their claims from the start of this year.

Here are some stats:

Self-Pay (read uninsured) billed amounts are approximately 600% of the allowed amount for matching CPTs. This means that most care providers are charging their self pay patients 6 TIMES what they accept as a payment for a particular charge from an insurance company or medicare. Individuals have almost NO leverage to dispute the bill. THIS IS WHY ADVIL IS $60 A PILL AT HOSPITALS.

Lets look at buying power/leverage on costs, the payors with the highest calculated market leverage (aka highest negative standard deviations from the arithmetic average of (CPT code - Allowed amounts) both contractual and claim based for that code) are:

Medicaid - around 0.4 dev from mean
Medicare - same as medicaid but little higher
UHC (united health) - 0.18 for CA, their biggest market
Cigna - even lower for most states
Aetna - Northeast has less than 0.1 std dev

That means Medicare and Medicaid are the most effective cost controllers for any given CPT, with the private payors controlling costs very closely to how big their collective pools are.

This is exactly what I mean by the ACA being good for the economy, it pushes more people into insurance plans and those who can't afford it on to medicaid/care or subsidies. It increases the market power/leverage of the companies and the individuals themselves to demand lower costs.

That in turn puts pressure on the care providers to deliver at lower costs because they get paid much lower amounts. You don't have people like Liam's mom going bankrupt as much and putting other negative unseen externalities into the market (she can't work or defaults on the debt, which lowers the revenue of the financial institution that lent it etc.).

Tons of image macros about me being economically illiterate but no counterexamples, no one has given me a solid reasoned argument for why the ACA is economically detrimental past "premiums will go up for some" to "but the gubmint maaaaan".

Like I said, in general a free market works well, but for a product that cannot be effectively shopped for at the point of delivery, cannot be evaluated for quality without a 2nd or 3rd party and isn't paid for by the purchaser directly is NOT going to solve to the pareto optimal distribution of said resource. Literally no one can tell me why that is not the case, I would love to hear it and would even love more to be wrong and learn something I didn't know about econ or a theory that is truly novel.
 
The "free market" is a myth that only works in a perfect world where those with money and power are too stupid not to collude. Until that miraculously happens, there is a time and place for government oversight. One fantasy easily-corruptible system replacing another corrupt system is not the answer.

Is Obamacare perfect? No. Is it remotely as bad as most of you are claiming it is? No. Is it better than nothing? Yes. Is it a step toward a single-payer system with real universal coverage? Hopefully.
 
You're missing the point. What makes you think the pools are no longer going to get segregated? The segregation will be accelerated under ObAmacare. This will inturn have premiums skyrocket year over year. And btw stop worrying about that 80% it's completely irrelevant.
 
Some might say increased demand, others would say an entire population being forced to buy a product under the threat of violence by a draconian overbearing government.

Well when you say it like that..

I also meant just that the population is getting older as well.

This is the part of the argument that really worries me when people don't understand it.

I can empathize with someone who believes that this will make healthcare better. I can empathize with those who say "at least they're trying, it's a step in the right direction".

But when I ask people "if it's so great, why isn't it voluntary?" - and they try to rationalize it, that's where the empathy stops.

Because it's extortion under the threat of force and violence. If you don't want to comply, they will fine you. If you refuse to pay, they will send thugs with guns to kidnap you and throw you in a cage - or kill you.

It's theft backed by the threat of violence. There's no moral or rational argument around that.

A good question to ask yourself is "do I support any law or group of people that intend to use violence to steal from, harm or kill innocent people?"

It's a pretty good filter. And if you can answer it honestly you'll know exactly where you stand on 99.99% of political issues.
 
You're missing the point. What makes you think the pools are no longer going to get segregated? The segregation will be accelerated under ObAmacare. This will inturn have premiums skyrocket year over year. And btw stop worrying about that 80% it's completely irrelevant.

I'm missing your point because your point is not really relevant, I don't care if insurance companies can make money from appreciation on their reserves, the 80% limit IS important because IN THE FUTURE it will prevent the price gouging of the sick w/preexisting conditions that are not CURRENTLY in the pool.

This prevents the subsidies from being abused, the year after year rise of premiums is expected because you previously had the provider eating costs for the uninsured due to humane treatment laws for providing emergency care (haven't even touched on the fact that this alone in terms of waiting for care until you absolutely need it indirectly strains resources).

Now that healthy people are eating the costs, the total cost itself is more evenly distributed, preventing countless externalities and thus negative multipliers of indirect costs related to those externalities (like a person not producing in the economy because they are sick).

Looking at the premium costs in a vacuum without considering other factors and even the system as a whole is like trading stocks based on a single indicator.
 
This is the part of the argument that really worries me when people don't understand it.

I can empathize with someone who believes that this will make healthcare better. I can empathize with those who say "at least they're trying, it's a step in the right direction".

But when I ask people "if it's so great, why isn't it voluntary?" - and they try to rationalize it, that's where the empathy stops.

Because it's extortion under the threat of force and violence. If you don't want to comply, they will fine you. If you refuse to pay, they will send thugs with guns to kidnap you and throw you in a cage - or kill you.

It's theft backed by the threat of violence. There's no moral or rational argument around that.

A good question to ask yourself is "do I support any law or group of people that intend to use violence to steal from, harm or kill innocent people?"

It's a pretty good filter. And if you can answer it honestly you'll know exactly where you stand on 99.99% of political issues.

Yeah I agree with this, I get where that position is coming from but honestly what politically feasible method would you implement to get everybody to pay into healthcare and prevent people being left behind because of income?

To me, judging the value of someone's life and whether we should treat them for their illnesses solely on their wealth, ability and lot in life to get the care they need is much more egregiously immoral than the theoretical threat of violence for making it a rule to have health insurance.

No one ever questions car insurance either, which most states require you to have if you want to drive.
 
To the foreign anti-gun crowd, this is reason #78954246 why we need to keep our 2nd amendment (right to bear arms)

Still not getting your reasoning.

Article 3 of your constitution says "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort."

If you use your precious guns on the elected government you are committing treason.

Of course you could argue that Article 3 is so much toilet paper, just like the rest of your constitution. But by that reasoning the 2nd amendment is equally meaningless/toilet paper.

If you actually value that long ago document then the only way to change the government is through politics and the ballot box - when are you young 'uns going to understand this?

If you don't value the constitution, then dump it.

(I'm not particularly in favour of constitutions as they elevate the generation that made them above all others - American fetish about the superiority of the 1790's over all time is not dissimilar to Islamic fetish about the 12th century over all time. I prefer the flexible British system which simply says "no Parliament can bind it's successors", which means that the constitution is whatever people living a given era want it to be, to suit their unique circumstances - and each generation's circumstances are always unique.)
 
Thanks for considering the info. He says that the surgeons work at the facility actually make more money, even though the fees are much lower. From what I've heard, a lot of the outrageous prices are from hospital/facility fees. The surgeons at his place all own the facility together, so there's no need to mark up bandages, etc to the moon.

Non-profit hospitals are a big scam. They have to show a loss, so they charge outrageous fees to people w/o insurance. They know no one will pay 100% of those fees. That allows them to book a loss. Then at the end of the year they get a portion of those fictitious losses from the federal government as a rebate. One thing he likes to point out is that hospitals are always whining about their emergency rooms but then they're always adding more wings to the hospital. Definitely very fishy.

This is the guy's blog. Very informative:

G. Keith Smith, M.D.

I don't know man, I'll def. read your links though. I am not going to say I'm infallible, only the stupid think their political position is intractably true.

There are many different ways he can charge 1/10 to 1/5 of the cost of surgeries elsewhere, probably because he either doesn't mind getting paid that much less (is he making as much as other Surgeons?) or he's not providing care for emergency uninsured. The latter being the a significant part of why charges are so high but insurance payouts are so low.
 
THIS IS WHY ADVIL IS $60 A PILL AT HOSPITALS.

This is a very important part of your argument.


You say that the uninsured have no leverage.

So I ask, why do they need leverage?

I know it is pedantic to ask a question and then answer it, but I'll do it anyway. The reason you need leverage is because the medical industry works as a cartel. If it was a more free market, competition would be the leverage for the uninsured.

Why do they work as a cartel?

Thanks to government regulation.

So what is the solution you propose? More regulation.




Now, this doesn't mean the solution is crony capitalism style de-regulation (i.e. that which liberates big companies to do what they want and still stifle small companies, basically further empowering the cartels, like what happened in banking)

I honestly don't have an answer as to how to make health care better.

I think the solution would be to create a mix of socialized and private medicine, so that socialized medicine will provide a price base for private (not required, but market wise price base) and private will be able to pressure public into providing better services. But that is just me.

In the end, you can't 'fix' healthcare until you 'fix' the socio-economic model which we work with. Until money is taken out of politics, laws have expiration dates so that they have to be constantly renewed/revised/brought up for public discourse, the legal frame work is de-mistified (i.e. use clear, SPECIFIC language) and until the power dynamic between states and the fed is inverted (so that the federal gov has to go to the states for funds, and not the other way around) this issue will continue. Because even if a PERFECT health care reform were to be magically passed, big money will bribe... I mean 'lobby' the government into changing crony capitalist rules that essentially create cartels/oligopolies and monopolies.


You talk about that 20% rule as if it is a big deal. Give it 10 years and it will be gone. Just like they did with wire taps, the federal reserve, etc. They always do the same thing, they pass a compromise, and when no one is looking/caring, they get EXACTLY what they want.


'Fixing' health care in a rotten system is like taking a dinner with all rotten ingredients and changing one of the rotten ingredients for one that is fresh. The fresh ingredient will be contaminated and before long, the whole plate will be rotten again.

BTW, I'm not advocating anything based on 'economic theory'. I don't like economic theory because it is mauled around by people sitting in ivory towers (Adam Smith is awesome, but his book the wealth of nations falls short to reality, which is more complex, multi layered and paradoxical than such theories have captured... the closest writer I have found to understanding this reality would be Tolstoy). I have a lot of interest in power dynamics; not theory.
 
I'm missing your point because your point is not really relevant, I don't care if insurance companies can make money from appreciation on their reserves, the 80% limit IS important because IN THE FUTURE it will prevent the price gouging of the sick w/preexisting conditions that are not CURRENTLY in the pool.

This prevents the subsidies from being abused, the year after year rise of premiums is expected because you previously had the provider eating costs for the uninsured due to humane treatment laws for providing emergency care (haven't even touched on the fact that this alone in terms of waiting for care until you absolutely need it indirectly strains resources).

Now that healthy people are eating the costs, the total cost itself is more evenly distributed, preventing countless externalities and thus negative multipliers of indirect costs related to those externalities (like a person not producing in the economy because they are sick).

Looking at the premium costs in a vacuum without considering other factors and even the system as a whole is like trading stocks based on a single indicator.

This is simply not true. That 80% can't and won't prevent any of what you have outlined. It is simply a made up number. It has nothing to do with profitability. It is strictly a number that will be used to manipulate their loss ratio. That 80% will be the foundation they use to do exactly the opposite of what you have outlined. Bookmark this thread and come back to it in a couple years. Assuming ObAmacare actually gets implemented (it won't)
 
but honestly what politically feasible method would you implement to get everybody to pay into healthcare and prevent people being left behind because of income?

Maybe if they didn't spend so much time milking everything they could from the job creators to the point of them going to a different country more people would be working in America.

Maybe if they didn't make it so easy to get SSI, Food Stamps, and any other government aid and actually put deadlines on the length of use (unless they actually are incapable of bettering them selves) then more people would be motivated to better their life.

Doing them in that order would of created a lot more taxes for the government, Where they could turn around and actually offer affordable plans to EVERYONE not just the poor and would of had a great plan, However with the way it stands now it is just the rich supporting the poor as usual, and people actually get mad at companies that do leave. last time I checked a company was in business to profit not support people.

Maybe if the government came up with ways to help the poor better their lives instead of just handing them everything for free things would be a lot better.

Before I got into online marketing I was pretty poor, To the point I worked somewhere I was embarrassed to work at, but I did what I had to do to support me and my son and I never got any type of aid. Today it is just too damn easy for people to sit at home and be taken care of just by punishing people who got of their asses and made their life better. I know some people can't help the situation they are in, But there is plenty of people in that situation because it is just so much easier on them.
 
What upsets and fascinates me are not the lies themselves, it's the naive American public John Q. Motherfuckers that buy into them hook line and sinker OVER AND OVER again. People are basically stupid and don't wake up until they've fucked themselves into oblivion and feel the horrible sting from being cornholed by politician COCK. And then they're all outraged and complainin' n shit. Butthurt. Aww. Affordable Cocksmaq Act slammed me, BUTTHURT.

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