Iowa Caucuses

This stuff ^^^ is what I am talking about. Rothbard had a great quote

First, I do not go around making it sound as if I know everything. I think you should know that by now. I was simply asking, how is it a destruction of capital and how is it that the working class and poor are worse off?

As for the Gold standard and Boom/Bust cycles here's a Mises link for you.
Boom, Bust, and Gold - Frank Shostak - Mises Daily. I am not claiming to "know it all" as many of you presume I am, read my posts again, I am careful to not assert what I do not grasp firmly. But I do know the results of this cycle, how it has impacted the working class, how they have a higher standard of living than would otherwise be available - you can call me ignorant all you want - I am not arguing economics - I am arguing the reality of the impact. Maybe everyone needs to get out of their Ivory Tower and look around - I live in the center of the sub-prime world - Inland Empire, Ca - I have seen all sides first hand. Tell me how I am wrong. I would also like you to point out my "loud and vociferous opinion".
 
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Here here! I'm going to use that one... Soon. I've got my target picked out for it, and he's 20 times as bad as REIMktg here. :485:

Yes, all high and mighty. Yet you cannot tell me where I am wrong if you stick to my actual points and not deviate to your personal interpretations.
 
But I do know the results of this cycle, how it has impacted the working class, how they have a higher standard of living than would otherwise be available
How is this possible? Can you explain the mechanics that create this higher standard?

you can call me ignorant all you want - I am not arguing economics - I am arguing the reality of the impact.
"You're wrong because I am talking about REALITY"

Do you realize how empty an argument that is?

Explain the facts, don't lecture me on your perception of reality somehow being the correct one BECAUSE...

Maybe everyone needs to get out of their Ivory Tower and look around - I live in the center of the sub-prime world - Inland Empire, Ca - I have seen all sides first hand. Tell me how I am wrong.
Tell me how you are right. The burden of proof is on the person making an assertion.

Don't assert you are right, prove it with facts. Lay out the train of reasoning which leads you to your conclusions. Explain what premises you start with, and which facts you interpret based on those premises, and how that is logically congruent with your opinion.

Because if you're going to say, "I know, I am in reality, I am in the middle of it, I know this stuff." that's not proof.

I was just making tea 10 minutes ago, and thinking about how it is that people mistake their opinion for facts these days.

People really believe that because they think something, it must be true. It doesn't take more than 15 seconds of thoughtful consideration to see how nonsensical that is. With any two people having different opinions on cause and effect, at least one of them is going to be wrong.

And yet if we believe this premise that what we think is right, we're either saying it is not universal (I am always right, everyone else is always wrong) to all humans, or that we have no fucking idea what we're talking about. The former is arrogance, the latter is ignorance.
 
Yet you cannot tell me where I am wrong if you stick to my actual points and not deviate to your personal interpretations.
You know, I actually do see your point about how a fiat system can work to give more people a better standard of life in a way, and honestly I can't disagree with every part of your system here... The lower and middle classes might even be better off sometimes because of the wasted structures (bad investments) trickling down to them, right? There's no arguing that, so you do have a tiny point...

BUT, even this advantage you point out is just a form of Socialism... And I still don't like paying for other people's shit!
 
How is this possible? Can you explain the mechanics that create this higher standard?

I did in earlier posts in this thread #274 & #278 & 281 , the same posts in which I asked how I was wrong. Actually you are quoting from 281 without the perspective of the prior posts.


"You're wrong because I am talking about REALITY"
Do you realize how empty an argument that is?
Explain the facts, don't lecture me on your perception of reality somehow being the correct one ...

I will not quote the rest because you are not using the context of my prior posts. You cannot lay ignorance at my feet when I specifically stated I was referring to the "reality of the impact" a quote that followed my posts that specified this higher standard of living that I observe first hand daily.

This is an exploration of knowledge, a real world testing of economic theory and belief. I am not nearly as ignorant as many here on WF wish, as I oftentimes challenge beliefs with objective facts while approaching all subjects with an open, realizing no one has all the answers.
 
You know, I actually do see your point about how a fiat system can work to give more people a better standard of life in a way, and honestly I can't disagree with every part of your system here... The lower and middle classes might even be better off sometimes because of the wasted structures (bad investments) trickling down to them, right? There's no arguing that, so you do have a tiny point...

BUT, even this advantage you point out is just a form of Socialism... And I still don't like paying for other people's shit!

Thanks, in reference to your first paragraph.

As for the concept of who pays for it - that too is interesting. In our economic system are we not afforded much more opportunity to earn with the fiat system than we are asked to give back? During the housing boom, dot com boom, Gold boom, and even the Acai boom (no doubt driven by people flush with cash from the real estate supported economy) - was there not more opportunity and money to be made than the cost? With proper tax shelters and handling of business, as well as living in no tax states, isn't it possible to drastically reduce your tax burden, as a business owner,not as a w-2 worker? The poor/working class already pay little to no taxes and therefore are paying for nothing.

Is there a drag on the economy? Yes. But I am not talking about the increased burden that the working class and poor pay as they live a higher standard of living simply with less cash. This group has $0.00 at the end of each week whether it is a good economy or bad. They may have had to sell their boat they bought during the boom, but their home, infrastructure, schools, etc are all giving them a nice standard of living and they are still driving that nice car that they bought in 2006.

For you, are you paying for it or not - or are you like the credit card company - offsetting losses with opportunity and great gains on the portion of your efforts that are "performing"?
 
1. Sell at the peak, take cash, rent, buy at the bottom - or buy several at the bottom and live the rest of their lives as landlords.

2. Buy at the peak, do not pay pymts for 24-48 months & bank the cash, sell at short sale, rent the house down the street for 1/2 their previous pymt for 2 years, buy again at low prices.

Scenario 1, the people walk with hundreds of thousands. Scenario 2, the people walk with 48K-96K (saved pymts), buy 2 years later. I am not arguing that investors (bankers etc) did not lose money, they took risk and lost - they also reaped mega rewards leading up to and getting out of the mess to compensate for the risk.

All the while, the working class, now can live in neighborhoods with fiber optics, new plumbing, healthy homes, good sewer systems etc instead of the slums that they would have had to live in had their not been a boom cycle. You see, not all is lost.

By the way, where is all of that money that was made during the boom? I know, its sitting on the sidelines with my investors waiting for blood in the streets so they can buy up all the homes for $50K that they once built and sold for $300K.

So lets see, is it all bad? the 90% that are working, is it all bad? That same 90% can now refinance their homes, up to 125% underwater at 4% interest without income documentation. Sure there are many that do not qualify, but there are also many that do. It's not all doom and gloom. Not to mention there are many people that bought new boats, Glamis Mobiles, RV's, and good reliable cars with the boom equity in their homes - those cars are still serving them well today.

So tell me - how is it all bad?

.............................................................................................

face motherfucking palm

You just completely ignored the downswing of the cycle AGAIN.

The only slightly correct part of your argument is that a bust isn't necessarily bad, it's just a correction of the price. However, it would have been better to not have the bubble in the first place because it doesn't fucking matter how affordable houses became due to the bust, as SOMEONE HAD TO LOSE MONEY TO SELL AT THAT LOW PRICE.

Your posts clearly shows that you know absolute jack shit about economics so you talking about the economy would mean as much a turd coming out of your mouth.

Guerilla is right, I'm wasting my time. Fuck this.
 
.............................................................................................

face motherfucking palm

You just completely ignored the downswing of the cycle AGAIN.

The only slightly correct part of your argument is that a bust isn't necessarily bad, it's just a correction of the price. However, it would have been better to not have the bubble in the first place because it doesn't fucking matter how affordable houses became due to the bust, as SOMEONE HAD TO LOSE MONEY TO SELL AT THAT LOW PRICE.

Your posts clearly shows that you know absolute jack shit about economics so you talking about the economy would mean as much a turd coming out of your mouth.

Guerilla is right, I'm wasting my time. Fuck this.

I was not arguing from a view of economics. I was simply pointing out that it was not all bad. As you conceded. So take your palm off your face - you clearly have nothing to add other than that you have not read my posts.

Yes, someone lost money, did you read my post earlier addressing LukeP? I was simply asking, isn't the loss made up with the extraordinary gains from the bubble? Is this really a zero sum game? Are we not left with increased infrastructure etc as I have pointed out.

And screw you for telling me that a turd is coming from my mouth, really? What are you 12? Grow up. You may disagree with my posts, but they are not worthy of blatant disrespect. If you fail to understand the current state of this most recent bubble crash, then STFU - that's got to be the first time, or close to it, that I have ever said that to someone here. Wow, good job.

My position stands.

You stated it is better not to have the bubble in the first place. This is what we are told, but I was presenting a contrary view that you failed to address with anything other than implying you are smarter.

Just an interesting point about the housing crash:

1. Median home price in the US $173,200. Median - half the homes in the US are priced under this amount - half!

2. Payment with PITI - about $1060 (assumes $208/month prop taxes). That's principal, interest, taxes and insurance for the uninformed.

3. FHA loan 3.5% down is $6,000. You can offset this with many programs that make actual down payment close to what it costs for first and last month rent to get into a place.

4. Income needed for loan, under $2,500 gross ($30K/yr or $15/hr roughly). That's a husband and wife making the minimum wage or one earner making $15 an hour.

So tell me how this is not a great situation. The freaking minimum wage earners can buy a house, and not just any house, a house that is smack dab in the middle of all housing values - and FHA does not even require good credit!

How awesome is that? Fiber optics, sewer, city water, central heat and air, no lead paint, no asbestos, good streets - the whole 9 yards - available to those on minimum wage.

--- by the way - its even better for the rich. I can buy an existing mortgage for $0.30 on the current home value, foreclose, and own that same home for $52K. Wonderful housing crash isn't it?
 
Hellblazer and riddar. God must want me to post more.

I'm still waiting for the never-to-materialize day when you actually post some credible, 3rd Party validation that you are qualified to speak on economic theory dear friend (or did you want me to go first?).



On a different note hellrazer (or whatever his name is), is a harmless racist xenophobe who just needs a hug.

Whatever happened to that chap popeye, he was far more interesting...
 
I'm still waiting for the never-to-materialize day when you actually post some credible, 3rd Party validation that you are qualified to speak on economic theory dear friend (or did you want me to go first?).

By "3rd Party validation," am I to presume you mean degrees, Nobels, and peer-reviewed and multi-cited pieces in respected econ trade pubs? Just guessin' here.

That reminds me of a story...

I knew an investment advisor long ago. He once told me that out of all his clients - both individuals and institutions - throughout his career, one stood out like a sore thumb. The guy could pick stocks. Not with darts; he actually put in the work. He had a scary track record, better than any analyst the advisor had ever followed.

Dude was a car mechanic. He didn't receive "3rd party validation." No degrees, no Nobels, no essays on securities analysis. Just knew his stuff when it came to stocks.
 
By "3rd Party validation," am I to presume you mean degrees, Nobels, and peer-reviewed and multi-cited pieces in respected econ trade pubs? Just guessin' here.

That reminds me of a story...

I knew an investment advisor long ago. He once told me that out of all his clients - both individuals and institutions - throughout his career, one stood out like a sore thumb. The guy could pick stocks. Not with darts; he actually put in the work. He had a scary track record, better than any analyst the advisor had ever followed.

Dude was a car mechanic. He didn't receive "3rd party validation." No degrees, no Nobels, no essays on securities analysis. Just knew his stuff when it came to stocks.

And who decided "he knew his stuff"?

This is relevant to the world of business but not to academic theory.

A legion of mindless intellectual sychophants who hang on to your every word does not qualify you to speak as an authority.

I take that back...it does on Wickedfire!

Doesn't work in the real world unfortunately.

Having said that it must be pretty awesome when you have enough authority in a small social setting that you don't have to prove you're an expert with - gasp - 3rd party validation.

The next time you need an operation, I wonder if you'll decide who your doctor will be based on whether or not the person passed the boards or if they had 2,000+ posts on a internet marketing forum - lol


Out before cult followers start flaming!
 
And who decided "he knew his stuff"?

This is relevant to the world of business but not to academic theory.

A legion of mindless intellectual sychophants who hang on to your every word does not qualify you to speak as an authority.

I take that back...it does on Wickedfire!

Doesn't work in the real world unfortunately.

Having said that it must be pretty awesome when you have enough authority in a small social setting that you don't have to prove you're an expert with - gasp - 3rd party validation.

The next time you need an operation, I wonder if you'll decide who your doctor will be based on whether or not the person passed the boards or if they had 2,000+ posts on a internet marketing forum - lol


Out before cult followers start flaming!

Are you talking about the 3rd party verification from all the banks and financial institutions telling us we have green shoots and the recession is over? Or perhaps the 3rd party verification from our authoritative government officials who know what is best for us? Are you talking about the 3rd party economic experts that somehow were unable to predict the crash of 2008? Which 3rd party economic experts are we talking about? The dipshits that spend their time perpetuating falsities and illogical conclusions? The ones that were never big enough to do anything of significance in life so they had to collapse under the fold and parrot what others smarter than themselves have told them to say? Sounds like the height of ignorance to me.

Putting 3rd party verification and authorities over your own intelligence is just about the dumbest thing you can do. Just because something is 3rd party verified doesn't make it right. Just because something isn't 3rd party verified doesn't make it wrong. It isn't 3rd party verified that you don't know what you're talking about, but it's still true. People who rely on sources and 3rd party verification as the only measure of validity are people who are incapable of validating things themselves. Way to go.

I'd rather listen to 1 guy speak truth with no verification than 100 dipshits all spouting nonsense verifying each other.
 
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***attempting critical thinking....
***failed
***default: insert leftist slur
***success!

Riddar: "sexist racist "

***internal dialogue: yay! that made me feel better!
***insert a couple more leftist slurs

Riddar: "xenophobe imperialist homophobe neocon"

It's almost embarrassing how predictable and boring leftists are. They literally do not have a single original thought in their head except what the NYT has pounded in there. Riddar sounds like NYT sounds like HuffPo sounds like the Democrat Party sounds like NPR sounds like a wannabe-elitist self-loathing pseudo-academic who, due to a complete lack of critical thinking skills, can only fall back on the latest leftist-rag drivel editorial talking points to rebut whatever truth is attempting to penetrate that deranged cranium. Ahh, the life of a leftist drone. It must be so easy and mindless.

And her obsession with "credentialism" is almost funny at this point. You get the feeling that if the prestigious Institute for Intelligence and Advanced Thinking and Other Important Stuff, stocked full of Ph.D's and 170-IQ people, put out a study saying that attempting to defy gravity could potentially lead to longer life spans, Riddar would gun her old carcass into hyperdrive and leap off the nearest bridge.
 
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Are you talking about the 3rd party verification from all the banks and financial institutions telling us we have green shoots and the recession is over? Or perhaps the 3rd party verification from our authoritative government officials who know what is best for us? Are you talking about the 3rd party economic experts that somehow were unable to predict the crash of 2008? Which 3rd party economic experts are we talking about? The dipshits that spend their time perpetuating falsities and illogical conclusions? The ones that were never big enough to do anything of significance in life so they had to collapse under the fold and parrot what others smarter than themselves have told them to say? Sounds like the height of ignorance to me.

Putting 3rd party verification and authorities over your own intelligence is just about the dumbest thing you can do. Just because something is 3rd party verified doesn't make it right. Just because something isn't 3rd party verified doesn't make it wrong. It isn't 3rd party verified that you don't know what you're talking about, but it's still true. People who rely on sources and 3rd party verification as the only measure of validity are people who are incapable of validating things themselves. Way to go.

I'd rather listen to 1 guy speak truth with no verification than 100 dipshits all spouting nonsense verifying each other.

+rep

riddarhusetgal nigga you're trying too hard to sound smart