London Anarchy

Taken from the article you linked to - "In 2009 - the latest year for which detailed statistics are available - there were 13,636 murders in the US. Of those, 9,146 were caused by firearms."

That is two thirds of all murders were caused by firearms!!

Murder rate in the US is around 4-5 that of the UK.

The writing is on the wall

That doesn't disprove that if gun ownership rates were lower, that there could have been another additional 2,000 murders. You have to prove that high gun ownership rates causes higher gun murder rates. Looking at the state data, the correlation is the opposite.

If guns prevented just one death in Vermont that year, then at least for that year, gun ownership lowered murder rates.

If you look at rates for crimes that don't involve guns, the US is higher in those also. There's plenty of factors beyond the availability of weapons that has to do with why the US has more crime.
 


DC has by far the lowest levels of gun ownership, but also the highest levels of gun murder. Maryland is 3rd for gun murder rate, but they also have one of the lower amounts of gun owners.

Now look at the states with higher gun ownership, many of them have the lowest murder rates.

Vermont might be the easiest state to get a gun in, and you will notice that they had zero gun murders, while they did have 7 total murders that year.

I don't agree with that. Washington, D.C. is a large urban center with a fairly disparate population. While I don't know a lot about Vermont, my impression is that it's a hunting/skiing/fishing destination with few major urban centers in which ghettos could form. Most gun ownership there is likely in the form of hunting rifles, no?

And I would imagine these statistics only track legal guns. The actual number of guns in the hands of the citizens must be way higher, especially in urban populations.

I think more guns = more deaths by guns. Plain and simple. How many people would have been killed in the UK riots so far if gun culture was more widespread there? While I don't see anything wrong with having cops carry guns to dissuade a few rioters, what's going to happen if everybody on the street is carrying a gun?

It would be a bloodbath...people would see their buddies get shot and, instead of turning back, it would just incite them further.
 
I don't agree with that. Washington, D.C. is a large urban center with a fairly disparate population. While I don't know a lot about Vermont, my impression is that it's a hunting/skiing/fishing destination with few major urban centers in which ghettos could form. Most gun ownership there is likely in the form of hunting rifles, no?

And I would imagine these statistics only track legal guns. The actual number of guns in the hands of the citizens must be way higher, especially in urban populations.

I think more guns = more deaths by guns. Plain and simple. How many people would have been killed in the UK riots so far if gun culture was more widespread there? While I don't see anything wrong with having cops carry guns to dissuade a few rioters, what's going to happen if everybody on the street is carrying a gun?

It would be a bloodbath...people would see their buddies get shot and, instead of turning back, it would just incite them further.

Exactly right.

There's plenty of factors beyond the availability of weapons that has to do with why the US has more crime.

Go for it. But bare in mind we are talking about per capita and not on an overall basis.
 
London is bad at the moment. Very bad.

But I'm not sure vigilante groups of armed, angry shopkeepers would help a great deal.
If ending the looting would not help a great deal then you're right, armed shopkeepers would not help a great deal.
 
lol.. ,just like you thought the Norway guy would have always been a perfectly sane gentleman if blackie hadn't showed upy.

The society shaped him. He was robbed and beaten several times by immigrant gangs and two of his female friends were raped by immigrants. Of course, this was the root for his justified anger, which i share. I just wont start shooting innocent people.

I'm honestly curious, do you believe that native Europeans are not capable of growing up in bad homes, having mental issues, or anything like that?

They are. It just rarely happens since Europe is a rich and developed continent that produces highly civilized and decent people. In Africa and middle east it's the norm to grow up in a strict/primitive/violent society. It produces primitive, thuggish and violent people. When they come to Europe in search of riches, they soon find out that no one will hire them since they lack proper education. And soon ghettos starts to emerge. Most whites who live there will flee, but the poorer ones will have to stay. And eventually, they will start to mimic their primitive behavior in order to survive. Especially the younger ones who must go to school with these thugs.
 
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Washington, D.C. is a large urban center with a fairly disparate population. While I don't know a lot about Vermont, my impression is that it's a hunting/skiing/fishing destination with few major urban centers in which ghettos could form.

This is true, but these facts help show why just the presence of guns alone is not enough to increase murder rates.

How many people would have been killed in the UK riots so far if gun culture was more widespread there?

A comparison would be the 1992 Los Angeles riots. I don't remember anything about gun killings in that case. I'm not saying that they didn't happen, but definitely not to the level that you are saying should happen for a place with a lot guns.


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmsKGhLdZuQ]‪Crazy L.A. Gun Fight Erupts During Riot‬‏ - YouTube[/ame]


Go for it. But bare in mind we are talking about per capita and not on an overall basis.

There's not a simple answer.

Causes and correlates of crime - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
I was in the thick of it last night. I was in Croydon, South London/Surrey, where quite a big bit of the riots was going on. I drove down the highstreet to see absolute chaos!

i was there for about an hour before the police bothered to show, and even then it was about 16 riot officers against about 80 youths. The best bit was they were looting a bicycle shop to get something to get away from the the police.

I even witnessed looters robbing looters, this kid got into a jewellery shop, looted it only to be mugged as soon as he got out the door.

In all honesty, apart from the effect on the economy, the hard working business people and the innocent people getting hurt, I'm kinda happy this is kicking off to show the government how much they have fucked the country to the point that no one gives a shit anymore.
 
This is true, but these facts help show why just the presence of guns alone is not enough to increase murder rates.

If you allow guns in the UK then murder rate WILL go up, full stop. The only way you can't see this is if you have been conditioned that owning a gun is your right and is necessary to protect you and your family. If you haven't been conditioned to believe that you can see that it's completely ridiculous and a total fallacy.
 
If you allow guns in the UK then murder rate WILL go up, full stop. The only way you can't see this is if you have been conditioned that owning a gun is your right and is necessary to protect you and your family. If you haven't been conditioned to believe that you can see that it's completely ridiculous and a total fallacy.

Or more likely you've been conditioned so hard to accept that they are so bad it could never work. Typicall UK bullshit. Does it matter if you shoot and kill someone or stab them or use something else. Mother fuckers that are going to kill people are going to do it one way or the other.
 
In all honesty, apart from the effect on the economy, the hard working business people and the innocent people getting hurt, I'm kinda happy this is kicking off to show the government how much they have fucked the country to the point that no one gives a shit anymore.

This has nothing to do with politics. This is pure scum doing what they do best. I would wage that none of these "people" have a job and nor do they want one. They are a bunch of thieves, muggers, burglars and scroungers having some Lulz.

The best idea is to force conscription on them if they are caught rioting/looting and you'll see some compliance. 24 hours in jail is not a deterrent for these scum bags, but a couple of years in Afghanistan on the front line certainly is.
 
Or more likely you've been conditioned so hard to accept that they are so bad it could never work. Typicall UK bullshit. Does it matter if you shoot and kill someone or stab them or use something else. Mother fuckers that are going to kill people are going to do it one way or the other.

Well if that was the case then murder rates would be pretty much the same per capita, but they are not.

Who conditions people that having guns are bad??? It is not even an option so no one has to condition anyone. I can see with my own eyes what the evidence points towards. People don't want guns here (Europe) overall as they see what damage it does in the US, not because anyone tells us we shouldn't have them.
 
Who conditions people that having guns are bad??? It is not even an option so no one has to condition anyone. I can see with my own eyes what the evidence points towards. People don't want guns here (Europe) overall as they see what damage it does in the US, not because anyone tells us we shouldn't have them.
Dude you may as well go talk to a brick wall instead of talking about the negatives of gun ownership on an American site.
 
I am 100% writing off the ideas about putting guns into everyone's hands. It hasn't worked in the US and doesn't work anywhere else. Compare murder rates in the UK to the US and look at the amount of those murders involving guns and it would be clear to anyone that more guns is not the answer.

Every home in Switzerland is required to have a fully auto weapon and is given ammo by the government. Gun crime there is almost nonexistent.
 
I was in the thick of it last night...

In all honesty, apart from the effect on the economy, the hard working business people and the innocent people getting hurt, I'm kinda happy this is kicking off to show the government how much they have fucked the country to the point that no one gives a shit anymore.
The fact that someone there witnessing it in person can feel this way is enough for me to believe that the UK is headed for a full-on crackdown... REAL bullets may be used before this shit is over...! Scary shit. ;)


If you allow guns in the UK then murder rate WILL go up, full stop. The only way you can't see this is if you have been conditioned that owning a gun is your right and is necessary to protect you and your family. If you haven't been conditioned to believe that you can see that it's completely ridiculous and a total fallacy.
Bullshit.

I'm a gun owner but I've lived in London.

The fact of the matter is that the WORLD needs its' citizens to own guns until the WORLD has solved the problem of lower classes existing.

As long as your society has its' dregs, there will always be seemingly infinite "bad guys" produced by poverty and lack of education. These people can't afford as many guns as the citizenry can, so it's ALWAYS to the citizen's advantage to allow guns in that society. The CITIZENS win in that scenario, but when you take the guns away from the citizens it's the BAD GUYS who win instead... No matter how hard you make it for them to get guns. (Because they always do so and can even make them.)

Northern Europe, being more educated in general than the rest of the world, has pretty much fooled itself into believing that their society has evolved enough to no longer need those barbaric guns.

The fact of the matter is though, that their society still has its' dregs. If not, then explain this riot.

First educate the REST of your society and then, maybe then a gunless citizenry will be right for your little island... But the only way to really do it right is to not allow anyone in when you enact that law... Because the rest of the entire planet will be like Dregs to you at that point.


The best idea is to force conscription on them if they are caught rioting/looting and you'll see some compliance. 24 hours in jail is not a deterrent for these scum bags, but a couple of years in Afghanistan on the front line certainly is.
OMG that sounds stupid... Let me get this straight; you want to take your uneducated lawbreakers and put guns in their hands and then force them to go into touchy situations as ambassadors for your country, representing you and your interests?

Smoke another one, bro. :rasta:




It was the Seagull that started this looting trend then... I see.

I stand corrected... It's not the dregs afterall, it's the gulls.

The UK needs to better educate its' avairian population to prevent rioting in the future!
 
Police in Manchester seem to be doing a good job, going after the thugs, helped some friends escape the centre this evening.

BBC: "MANCHESTER = WARZONE" bad shit brahs