New(?) PayPal policy about virtual services

[o hai guyz]

I bought some Youtube traffic and it ended up being from China/India etc as opposed to US/UK like the seller claimed. Filed a PayPal dispute and immediately got a reply "we do not accept disputes regarding virtual goods and services." There was still a link to escalate it to a claim though, so I escalated it and then immediately got another email saying "due to our inability to verify the delivery of virtual goods and services, we are unable to decide this claim in your favor."

I'm not too concerned about this seeing as it was less than $100, but I'm surprised that they don't even process claims over virtual goods. You could set up numerous sites offering virtual goods such as traffic, content, ebooks, football tickets, design services, hosting, etc and after the customer pays through PayPal, just send them a sketch of your dick and ignore them. Or if you wanted to play it safe, just send them an incredibly low quality version of what you were actually supposed to send. This is completely different from ringtones/rebills because in this case the price is blatantly obvious to the customer and he knows exactly how much he's paying, he just doesn't know that he's getting a shitty version of the product. I think in law it's called implied warranty (something like that) and it is technically illegal but no one is going to sue you over a <$100 item, and they'll just chalk it up to PayPal's shitty customer service.

Not that I'm actually planning to set up scam sites (although I did think about it) but I thought this was interesting and something that everyone might want to be aware of.

 

[tencentpiece]

And that's why forums and reputations and five hundred other factors that prevent this type of fraud exist.

If you bought from any type of system that has this stuff in place - you could easily warn future buyers and the scam would be over.

 

[kingfish]

Thats always been their policy I think if you get screwed over services or virtual goods you're screwed. That's why I always pay with amex through paypal then I can go to amex and charge it back.

 

[o hai guyz]

And that's why forums and reputations and five hundred other factors that prevent this type of fraud exist.

If you bought from any type of system that has this stuff in place - you could easily warn future buyers and the scam would be over.

Think about standalone sites/landers. It doesn't really apply to people selling on WF. Sure there's ripoffreport, but no one bothers to check it, and there's numerous bad reviews about literally every site out there so it really isn't that credible especially for cheaper services.

 

[BeerNuts]

Hmm this is interesting because some guy started a dispute for my Yelp Scraper on 6/2 instead of emailing me for support. The dispute is there, its for a software but wouldn't that be a virtual good?

 

[EricVonDoobie]

Buying traffic to boost views is a different kind of "virtual good/service" than an eBook or backlinking service, at least in Paypal's eyes, pretty sure.

 

[cardine]

I own a decent size software site and get a bunch of disputes so this is relevant to my interests.

 

[identity_00]

And if you're the person selling these virtual services like "traffic, content, ebooks, football tickets, design services, hosting, etc" Paypal will put a hold on 20% of your money for 30-90 days. Makes no sense, hopefully, the new money service provided by the 3 big banks in the US will kill paypals business. One of the biggest scams on the net.

Wells Fargo, Chase, Bank of America jointly launch PayPal rival - Computerworld

 

[stmadeveloper]

For those of you selling software, or anything virtual it's true - paypal offers no protection to your buyers (or you if they do a CC dispute).

I've had maybe a dozen disputes for scripts or sites I've sold over the years. If it's a script - I just refund. If it's a site - I fight it. I've never lost one.

But consider every dispute you have an invitation for the lovely paypal reps (who I think are trained to play stupid) to review your account. That review will result in:

1.) Closing of your account.
2.) Limiting your account.
3.) Forcing you to fax and e-mail in 10000,00000,0000 documents which they will repeatedly lose.
4.) Getting a hold put on all incoming funds.

etc.....

 

[megatabbers]

I sell eBooks via PayPal. Never won a single dispute no matter how much documentation I provided them. I now just refund the buyer (read: scammer) on the spot.

 

[sennin436]

Thats always been their policy I think if you get screwed over services or virtual goods you're screwed. That's why I always pay with amex through paypal then I can go to amex and charge it back.

^ this.

o hai guyz, I also learned it the hard way with paypal. Escalated things to a dispute, even sent copies of email correspondence between myself and the con-artist OP like they suggested, called paypal and spoke to a service rep who handles disputes, but to no avail. Bottomline, no refunds for services. Refunds only given to goods. A big part of Paypal revenues (maybe not all, but a big part) comes from the seller by charging a sales commision from the seller. So they're are much more seller-oriented. Compare this with credit card companies where a big part of revenues come from interest charges to buyer's purchases - so it's much more buyer-oriented. It all comes down to who pays your bills

Only thing to do is to charge it back thru your cc company. Oh, and be care3ful about paypal's constant promotions recommending that you connect your acct to your bank/checking account or bank debit card. I did that in the very beginning and got screwed. Tried to get a chargeback by contacting my bank but to no avail. Seems the only way as a buyer to get chargebacks is to pay thru a regular credit card. (NOT a bank debit card, but a regular credit card).

 

[o hai guyz]

For those of you selling software, or anything virtual it's true - paypal offers no protection to your buyers (or you if they do a CC dispute).

I've had maybe a dozen disputes for scripts or sites I've sold over the years. If it's a script - I just refund. If it's a site - I fight it. I've never lost one.

Why did you decide to refund scripts but fight sites? Seems like they're both in the same category, and if you win in one you could win in another.

I sell eBooks via PayPal. Never won a single dispute no matter how much documentation I provided them. I now just refund the buyer (read: scammer) on the spot.

That's strange. Maybe they have a specific policy for ebooks but I don't see why it would be any different. I also had a hunch awhile back that every time a dispute was filed, PayPal would tell the buyer they lost and then tell the seller they lost and just keep the money - I actually wanted to test it with a friend, just never got around to it.

 

[Kiopa_Matt]

Good, I say. I lost a PayPal account due to this before. I went WELL above and beyond what was required of me, put in loads of extra hours without complaint to the client, and how does the hag return the favor? Files an $800 claim with PayPal, and PayPal sides with her.

 

[DanWesson]

I won a dispute for $400 last year with a Indian guy here selling a site building service. He delivered content and 20% of the sites, and then went into semi-responsive mode. After pushing deadlines out several times I filed a dispute and subsequently escalated it. I don't think he responded to Paypal...certainly didn't respond to me thereafter. Finally I got my money back, but I seriously wasn't expecting it since they clearly say they don't cover virtual goods.

 

[sennin436]

I won a dispute for $400 last year with a Indian guy here selling a site building service. He delivered content and 20% of the sites, and then went into semi-responsive mode. After pushing deadlines out several times I filed a dispute and subsequently escalated it. I don't think he responded to Paypal...certainly didn't respond to me thereafter. Finally I got my money back, but I seriously wasn't expecting it since they clearly say they don't cover virtual goods.

So was it paypal that finally gave you the chargeback? Or was it the indian guy who grudgingly refunded you? Wasn't clear.

 

[daniwilson]

I sell eBooks via PayPal. Never won a single dispute no matter how much documentation I provided them. I now just refund the buyer (read: scammer) on the spot.

^ Had this happen to me too, then again, you know what they say, "customer is always right" seller usually get screwed at the end

 

[DanWesson]

So was it paypal that finally gave you the chargeback? Or was it the indian guy who grudgingly refunded you? Wasn't clear.

I won a dispute ... I filed a dispute ... escalated it. I don't think he responded to Paypal...certainly didn't respond to me ...

Paypal

 

[teck112]

I always send my payments for 'goods'.

When I have to dispute a service I just write in non descript terms like, package hasnt arrived yet.

Never lost a dispute.

 

[stmadeveloper]

Why did you decide to refund scripts but fight sites? Seems like they're both in the same category, and if you win in one you could win in another.

Because scripts are intangible and just not worth a fight. It's not like it cost me anything to deliver one more copy. So no big deal. Besides - in these cases it's usually someone who shouldn't have a website much less a script they have to install or something.

But If I sold a site it cost me money - domain, link building, time, etc... The person buying it had all the info and is just trying to rip me off.

Script buyer is probably just a dissatisfied customer, the second is a thief.

 

[sennin436]

I always send my payments for 'goods'.

When I have to dispute a service I just write in non descript terms like, package hasnt arrived yet.

Never lost a dispute.

Yup :thumbsup: Several months ago when a number of us got burned by a con-artist OP, that's one of the things ppl mentioned doing henceforth. Always select it in paypal as paying for 'goods' and never as 'services'. I remember when I was disputing this thru paypal, the con-artist OP kept responding that this was a service he provided (actually that he failed to provide) and I can't ask for a refund since it's a service and not goods. Kinda surprised paypal didn't pick up on this obvious game he was playing. Or they did but just ignored it (seller-biased system). Oh well, lesson learned lol.