Obama: "If You've Got A Business - You Didn't Build That."

The economy isn't Obama's fault.The economy is the American people's fault. They have built up and support a government that destroys capital through taxation, regulation and debt.

The American government will improve when the American people improve. No super hero politician will be able to change what the majority of Americans endorse, which is why RP never stood a chance. His view is a minority view.
......

Spot on,just that the American people, and all other people for that matter, will never improve. This is not how democracy works.


“A democracy is a government in the hands of men of low birth, no property, and vulgar employment” ~ Aristotle

“In a democracy the poor will have more power than the rich, because there are more of them, and the will of the majority is supreme.” ~ Aristotle

“All, too, will bear in mind this sacred principle, that though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will, to be rightful, must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal laws must protect, and to violate would be oppression.” ~ Thomas Jefferson

“The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.” ~ Winston Churchill

“A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.” ~ Thomas Jefferson

“Democracy... while it lasts is more bloody than either [aristocracy or monarchy]. Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There is never a democracy that did not commit suicide.” ~ John Adams

“As I would not be a slave, so I would not be a master. This expresses my idea of democracy.” ~ Abraham Lincoln

“The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.” ~ Thomas Jefferson

“Democracy substitutes election by the incompetent many for appointment by the corrupt few.” ~ George Bernard Shaw
“Democracy is a device that insures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.” ~ George Bernard Shaw


 


ITT people too blinded by their bias to parse the correct meaning from a simple soundbite.

He was talking about roads and bridges, not businesses. It's obvious if you listen to the speech.
 
ITT people too blinded by their bias to parse the correct meaning from a simple soundbite.

He was talking about roads and bridges, not businesses. It's obvious if you listen to the speech.

Do you still think thats right? Do you owe people 50% of your work in perpetuity because of roads that were already paid for (partially) by your taxes, and the taxes of your family before? Do you owe cronies and lazy people money because other people helped invest in roads in the past?

It's a ridiculous statement either way (and I interpreted it as you did).
 
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Do you still think thats right? Do you owe people 50% of your work in perpetuity because of roads that were already paid for (partially) by your taxes, and the taxes of your family before? Do you owe cronies and lazy people money because other people helped invest in roads in the past?

It's a ridiculous statement either way (and I interpreted it as you did).

If I'm paying 50% of what I earn, obviously I've been rather successful. To what, then, do I owe my success? Is it solely the result of my own hard work? My own conscious choice? If it's that simple, why isn't everyone as successful as I? Why don't they just make the same choice I've made?

The answer is, it's not. Not that simple, and not solely the result of my own choice.

So much of what determines our success in life happens before we are even born, let alone everything that comes after. If I had been born in a slum in Bangalore, what are the odds that I'd have even 1/10th the opportunity to earn enough to put me into a 50% effective tax rate bracket?

Your place of birth, how well your parents raised you, how attractive, intelligent, and healthy you are, your primary education, how society treats you - all of that plays an enormous role in your success in life.

You could be attractive, smart, talented, healthy, with perfect parents, but be born in a slum, and your opportunities would be greatly diminished. Or you could be all of the above and be born in a wealthy country, but have a crippling disability. Or be a marginalized ethnic minority. Any little thing could've gone against you and radically changed the odds of your success.

That's not to say hard work and perseverence don't play a role. Of course they do, unless you were literally born rich, or got incredibly lucky.

But even the ability to exercise willpower and perserverence is largely determined by genetics and formative environment.

Children who are able to delay gratification do better later in life.

Eldest siblings are more ambitious and successful, on average.

Yet you earned none of that. Given that all those things play such a large role, how can you claim the rewards of your success as yours and yours alone?

"So? Life ain't fair."

No, no it's not. And if you're one of life's winners, lucky for you. I'd think you a selfish ass for saying it though.

One of the great benefits of people banding together in a society is that we can reduce that inherent unfairness - something I think we're all better off for in the long run.

Now speaking of roads and bridges, that's only a small part of it - but an easy one for people to understand. Government's investment in physical infrastructure has enormous long term benefits in terms of facilitating trade and strengthening the economy. And the early investment in the development of the internet has proved to be the interstate highway system of the 21st century.

But government also plays a role in investing in social infrastructure - laws and institutions that support trade and improve people's lives. A government that invests in its people - in terms of education and healthcare - will see long term benefits as a better educated and healthier population will have less crime, a lower birthrate, and higher earning potential.

We all end up paying one way or another. Less investment in social infrastructure means more crime = more police and more prisons. It also means lower productivity. Healthcare is expensive in part because of all the people who can't pay ending up in the emergency room for treatment.

Goverment's role in investing in both physical and social infrastructure has benefits for everyone. Better health and education translates into higher buying power = more customers for your business (or your boss's business).

That's the ideal, at least. The way it's gone down in America has been a mixed bag. Yup - cronyism and corruption are a problem. I think some other countries have a done a better job balancing the social good and economic freedom. I think a big part of the problem is cutural. Americans put affluence and success on a pedestal, coveting and consuming and competing, all too often to the detriment of health, happiness, community, the environment - the social good. Individuals relegated to cogs in the machine rather than respected as people. In Kantian terms, treating people as means rather than ends.

I'm not an idealist, or partisan zealot. I try to be pragmatic. I'm interested in what works. I'm interested in evidence. Striking a balance between individual liberty and the common good is always going to be a challenge. I can look around the world and see countries where things seem to be working better for average people than they are in the US. What are they doing differently? Could the US implement some of those ideas? Is that sustainable? I don't know. Is the US sustainable? I don't know. Is an anarchist, libertarian, propertarian society sustainable? I don't know. Which direction do we want to go? What's pragmatically achievable? Those are the questions I ask myself. The best I can do is be honest with myself and try to do what's right.
 
If I'm paying 50% of what I earn, obviously I've been rather successful. To what, then, do I owe my success? Is it solely the result of my own hard work? My own conscious choice? If it's that simple, why isn't everyone as successful as I? Why don't they just make the same choice I've made?

The answer is, it's not. Not that simple, and not solely the result of my own choice.

So much of what determines our success in life happens before we are even born, let alone everything that comes after. If I had been born in a slum in Bangalore, what are the odds that I'd have even 1/10th the opportunity to earn enough to put me into a 50% effective tax rate bracket?

Your place of birth, how well your parents raised you, how attractive, intelligent, and healthy you are, your primary education, how society treats you - all of that plays an enormous role in your success in life.

You could be attractive, smart, talented, healthy, with perfect parents, but be born in a slum, and your opportunities would be greatly diminished. Or you could be all of the above and be born in a wealthy country, but have a crippling disability. Or be a marginalized ethnic minority. Any little thing could've gone against you and radically changed the odds of your success.

That's not to say hard work and perseverence don't play a role. Of course they do, unless you were literally born rich, or got incredibly lucky.

But even the ability to exercise willpower and perserverence is largely determined by genetics and formative environment.

Children who are able to delay gratification do better later in life.

Eldest siblings are more ambitious and successful, on average.

Yet you earned none of that. Given that all those things play such a large role, how can you claim the rewards of your success as yours and yours alone?

"So? Life ain't fair."

No, no it's not. And if you're one of life's winners, lucky for you. I'd think you a selfish ass for saying it though.

One of the great benefits of people banding together in a society is that we can reduce that inherent unfairness - something I think we're all better off for in the long run.

Now speaking of roads and bridges, that's only a small part of it - but an easy one for people to understand. Government's investment in physical infrastructure has enormous long term benefits in terms of facilitating trade and strengthening the economy. And the early investment in the development of the internet has proved to be the interstate highway system of the 21st century.

But government also plays a role in investing in social infrastructure - laws and institutions that support trade and improve people's lives. A government that invests in its people - in terms of education and healthcare - will see long term benefits as a better educated and healthier population will have less crime, a lower birthrate, and higher earning potential.

We all end up paying one way or another. Less investment in social infrastructure means more crime = more police and more prisons. It also means lower productivity. Healthcare is expensive in part because of all the people who can't pay ending up in the emergency room for treatment.

Goverment's role in investing in both physical and social infrastructure has benefits for everyone. Better health and education translates into higher buying power = more customers for your business (or your boss's business).

That's the ideal, at least. The way it's gone down in America has been a mixed bag. Yup - cronyism and corruption are a problem. I think some other countries have a done a better job balancing the social good and economic freedom. I think a big part of the problem is cutural. Americans put affluence and success on a pedestal, coveting and consuming and competing, all too often to the detriment of health, happiness, community, the environment - the social good. Individuals relegated to cogs in the machine rather than respected as people. In Kantian terms, treating people as means rather than ends.

I'm not an idealist, or partisan zealot. I try to be pragmatic. I'm interested in what works. I'm interested in evidence. Striking a balance between individual liberty and the common good is always going to be a challenge. I can look around the world and see countries where things seem to be working better for average people than they are in the US. What are they doing differently? Could the US implement some of those ideas? Is that sustainable? I don't know. Is the US sustainable? I don't know. Is an anarchist, libertarian, propertarian society sustainable? I don't know. Which direction do we want to go? What's pragmatically achievable? Those are the questions I ask myself. The best I can do is be honest with myself and try to do what's right.

You keep referencing "the common good" as though it were some sort of universal idea, when it's actually just a value judgement. The arrogance of the left knows no bounds.
 
You keep referencing "the common good" as though it were some sort of universal idea, when it's actually just a value judgement. The arrogance of the left knows no bounds.

You're not going to have a functional society without some shared values. Even in an anarchist society you have the NAP and varying ideas about property.
 
I hadn't seen this yet posted.

From Atlas Shrugged. Talking about a steel magnate, Rearden, who had just invented a revolutionary type of steel.

“He didn’t invent iron ore and blast furnaces, did he?”

“Who?”

“Rearden. He didn’t invent smelting and chemistry and air compression. He couldn’t have invented his Metal but for thousands and thousands of other people. His Metal! Why does he think it’s his? Why does he think it’s his invention? Everybody uses the work of everybody else. Nobody ever invents anything.”

She said, puzzled, “But the iron ore and all those other things were there all the time. Why didn’t anybody else make that Metal, but Mr. Rearden did?”

Its amazing how Atlas Shrugged is like a vision of today, every day I see the book playing itself out in reality.
 
I hadn't seen this yet posted.

From Atlas Shrugged. Talking about a steel magnate, Rearden, who had just invented a revolutionary type of steel.

“He didn’t invent iron ore and blast furnaces, did he?”

“Who?”

“Rearden. He didn’t invent smelting and chemistry and air compression. He couldn’t have invented his Metal but for thousands and thousands of other people. His Metal! Why does he think it’s his? Why does he think it’s his invention? Everybody uses the work of everybody else. Nobody ever invents anything.”

She said, puzzled, “But the iron ore and all those other things were there all the time. Why didn’t anybody else make that Metal, but Mr. Rearden did?”

Its amazing how Atlas Shrugged is like a vision of today, every day I see the book playing itself out in reality.

My GF quoted this exact passage to me last night, while we were laughing about the "you didn't build that" phenomenon.
 
Pragmatism is such a useless quality in an elected official. It's just an excuse for them to do whatever they want.
 
If these "values" are already shared, why do we need to ensure their existence with legislation?
To make sure everyone shares them or we will beat them, rob them and lock them up in a rape room, because obviously our values are best comrade!

I like how PN tries to use the non-aggression principle as an example.

The "common good" is an abstract and empty term that is neither a value nor anything actionable. It's a substitute for a real idea. For a solid concept.

If you accept that all men are individuals, there can be no such thing as a common good except that which allows all men to be individuals.
 
If these "values" are already shared, why do we need to ensure their existence with legislation?

They are shared in general. The law is there to enforce those values. There will always be those who don't share the same values. Perhaps they would be a better fit in a different society (or none at all).

To make sure everyone shares them or we will beat them, rob them and lock them up in a rape room, because obviously our values are best comrade!

Which happens every day to people living in social democracies around the world, am I right?

No... it clearly doesn't. So what's up? You sound delusional.

I like how PN tries to use the non-aggression principle as an example.

Why is that wrong? Is it not a shared value? Are there not those who believe "might makes right?"

You conveniently ignored the question of property. You know full well that ideas of property are endlessly debatable and ultimately subjective.
 
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The law is there to enforce those values.

"Don't hit others, or we'll hit you."
"Don't steal from others, but we're going to steal from you every year."
"Don't kidnap others, or we'll kidnap you."

It's interesting if you consider all of the studies that prove spanking ("DON'T HIT OTHERS OR I'LL HIT YOU!" see the similarity to the state?) only breeds more aggressive children. The parallel can be made to the state, using violence to justify violence.

Why is that wrong? Is it not a shared value? Are there not those who believe "might makes right?"

You conveniently ignored the question of property. You know full well that ideas of property are endlessly debatable and ultimately subjective.

I own myself, that shit is not debatable.
 
"Don't hit others, or we'll hit you."
"Don't steal from others, but we're going to steal from you every year."
"Don't kidnap others, or we'll kidnap you."

It's interesting if you consider all of the studies that prove spanking ("DON'T HIT OTHERS OR I'LL HIT YOU!" see the similarity to the state?) only breeds more aggressive children. The parallel can be made to the state, using violence to justify violence.



I own myself, that shit is not debatable.

How about the idea that if I kill you, depriving you of your life, and depriving your family of your productivity and support, I am forced to pay my debt to....the state?

How does that work exactly?

Why do I owe the state my time for depriving you of your rights?

The grossest irony is that your family winds up paying for my incarceration, so they lose twice.
 
"Don't hit others, or we'll hit you."
"Don't steal from others, but we're going to steal from you every year."
"Don't kidnap others, or we'll kidnap you."

It's interesting if you consider all of the studies that prove spanking ("DON'T HIT OTHERS OR I'LL HIT YOU!" see the similarity to the state?) only breeds more aggressive children. The parallel can be made to the state, using violence to justify violence.

Generally speaking, advanced social democracies have some of the lowest rates of violent crime in the world.

The US has a rather high rate, but I believe that's largely a cultural phenomenon.

I own myself, that shit is not debatable.

Of course it is. For starters, we could say that "ownership" describes a relationship between two things ('a' owns 'b'), and that it is meaningless to say that a thing owns itself.