Practical Ways To Fix The US Economy??

[lukep]

I think they are absolutely fools in the equation because they are ignorant of the game and the stakes.

Hole Lee Fuck.

I think you likely just gave Guerilla a minor coronary so I'll step in and take a few of the more obvious responses for him here:

You often say that the vast majority of people are peaceful and cooperative. Absolutely. Unfortunately there are, and always will be, a very small minority of very charismatic, genocidal death cultists who rise to the top an call shots.

I see no evidence of "Death Cultists." Good old greed and ignorance can easily explain all of the bad world leaders we've had.

Are the Rothshilds "Death Cultists? Was JP Morgan? Any US Presidents? Clearly these guys were all just greedy and sometimes misguided in what they though they could get away with to help or continue their greed.

Even Hitler and Mao were not easily classified as "death cultists" despite all their killing. Good arguments can and have been made that this wrongdoing was simply extreme ignorance, and was in no way killing for the enjoyment of the kill or anything like that.

And they sure as shit do not depend on government to express their psychopathy.

If not, then where did they get their power to do so? Did they pass around a collection plate at church, perhaps?

And they never will. I personally fail to see how a purely market dependent civilization will improve humanity's chances of these kinds of people not adopting positions of power, consolidating their resources and purposes, and subjecting people to their ill will - let alone create meaningful improvements to existing living standards, longevity, etc.

This is your whole problem bro, you just feel there is too much "Evil" in mankind and don't believe that we can play fair if given a chance.

Some are more greedy than others, there is no denying this. But in a true free market you aren't going to see them have the tools to do what you think they will do... Even if they do want to do it which is not proven. (Because we have never had a truly free market.)

There would be no point for these 'evil' ppl to keep behaving the way they do here under a government.

Suppose Jake's outlined changes came to pass. Suppose even that the former country's reactors, dams, levies, armories, tanks, thermonuclear devices, highways, electrical grid, water, and all of the other important things of civilization were then somehow (how?) privatized in a meaningful way. I cannot fathom how the people at the top of the pyramid would not actually favor this turn of events. They are the top. They don't have bosses. Theyliterally run the world. They don't answer to anyone.

But what is the top? Without a government to rule it all, society isn't shaped like a pyramid anymore. It will be shaped instead like a lawn, with thousands or millions of micro-tops... One for each industry.

Do today's private industry giants like microsoft and nike keep you up at night worrying about these things? If not, then there is no reason whatsoever to fear a time when instead of a few hundred industry giants and one big government we have nothing but a million industry giants.

That's how I see it. If people voluntarily renounced government I think the powers that be would actually have an easier go at it. It being mass genocide, bioengineering, surveillance, hoarding and suppressing technology, generally making life literally hell on earth, etc. Maybe I'm wrong.

You're wrong bro. Just plain wrong.

I don't have much faith in humanity myself, but your idea of humanity's incentives is just right off the deep end.

General rule of thumb when reasoning things out: Use Occam's razor on the incentives that people have. You'll figure out how things work far faster that way.

 

[MSTeacher]

I see no evidence of "Death Cultists." Good old greed and ignorance can easily explain all of the bad world leaders we've had.

good luck bro

Are the Rothshilds "Death Cultists? Was JP Morgan?

Yes..

Good arguments can and have been made that this wrongdoing was simply extreme ignorance, and was in no way killing for the enjoyment of the kill or anything like that.

lol okee dokee

you just feel there is too much "Evil" in mankind and don't believe that we can play fair if given a chance.

More like I don't believe markets alone currently have the ability to better inhibit the few from not playing fair at the expense of the many.

in a true free market you aren't going to see them have the tools to do what you think they will do

I'm all ears!

Without a government to rule it all, society isn't shaped like a pyramid anymore. It will be shaped instead like a lawn, with thousands or millions of micro-tops... One for each industry.

If you really think that is an accurate depiction of how things would shake out then more power to you.

Do today's private industry giants like microsoft and nike keep you up at night worrying about these things?

You know perfectly well that microsoft and nike are not the root of the problem. And I'm pretty sure you have an idea who is.

there is no reason whatsoever to fear a time when instead of a few hundred industry giants and one big government we have nothing but a million industry giants.

Like I said, I'm all ears!

You're wrong bro. Just plain wrong.

You're telling me that people who actively work toward the deaths of tens of millions of people aren't death cultists, that genocide is a result of extreme stupidity, and that the absence of government will take away the ability for these extremely stupid people to create megadeaths. OK.

 

[guerilla]

Honestly, yes I think that people who are for peace and cooperation are for the most part fools in the equation, to the extent that there is an equation.

You're welcome to this point of view. I think it makes you a lousy human being, but you're welcome to it.

I personally fail to see how a purely market dependent civilization will improve humanity's chances of these kinds of people not adopting positions of power, consolidating their resources and purposes, and subjecting people to their ill will - let alone create meaningful improvements to existing living standards, longevity, etc.

I eagerly await the day you invest your considerable intelligence into learning economics and political economy.

 

[Wicked Ice]

Abolish the Fed. Allow people to issue their own money. Minimize the government spending by pulling troops out of foreign nations.

 

[lukep]

good luck bro

It appears that you are fixated on the struggle of good versus evil.

I admit that a tiny number of humans are capable of some pretty evil-sounding shit, at least the hannibal lector kind of psychos are... But for those of us that are mentally stable, the golden rule simply applies to all of us and we can't avoid that fact... Greed can nibble at the edges of your goodness, but greed doesn't make you powerful in itself.

Only the government can deliver enough power to corrupt a person enough to do something like Hitler did. (And like our current politicians do.) Power Corrupts. Government gives people power. It's really freaking simple if you just examine the flow of power and ask yourself what peoples' incentives would be for doing horrible things.

I'm all ears!

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGMQZEIXBMs]George Ought to Help - YouTube[/ame]

This video explains very well the tools that the state gives people. Now imagine a world where the state doesn't exist... Who is giving them such tools?

How does such a large army of enforcers even come into existence?

All the bad things you are against are CAUSED BY or CREATED EXCLUSIVELY FOR the state. All of them. You should be the biggest anarchist here!

More like I don't believe markets alone currently have the ability to better inhibit the few from not playing fair at the expense of the many.

Because you just don't understand the economics, like Guerilla says.

A free market doesn't need some kind of magical ability to fix problems like human corruption. It just simply doesn't give them the overwhelmingly unfair power that the state does.

All your arguments should be made against the state, not against free markets.

If you really think that is an accurate depiction of how things would shake out then more power to you.

I do. You would too if you understood what a free market is.

You know perfectly well that microsoft and nike are not the root of the problem. And I'm pretty sure you have an idea who is.

I do, and I also know that those few would never have gained so much power without using the states' power. (First Germany, then England, now the US, to be specific. Likely all of the other civilized countries to some degree too.)

If those states didn't exist, then they wouldn't have had the power to do what they did. Nor would they have become as corrupted as they have become. (Which honestly isn't as wrong as Hitler was in my book... They just had MORE power. Hitler was more Corrupt on less power.)

You're telling me that people who actively work toward the deaths of tens of millions of people aren't death cultists, that genocide is a result of extreme stupidity, and that the absence of government will take away the ability for these extremely stupid people to create megadeaths. OK.

Sounds cold, but look at the incentives, not the outcome.

The reason you'd want to do so is to stop it happening in the future.

 

[MSTeacher]

You're welcome to this point of view. I think it makes you a lousy human being, but you're welcome to it.

Well I'm sorry you feel that way and I respect your opinion. I hope the rest of my post bespeaks something to the contrary. Or at least lends perspective to my lousiness.

And to answer your question simply, I believe in program, strategy and leadership.

I eagerly await the day when humanity can apply these things to an anarchist form of life without suffering intolerable collateral damage. I'm sure we have that in common.

 

[BigWill]

Factory jobs aren't coming back when the factory is making stuff that can be just as easily made for 1/10th the price in Asia. So let's make stuff in the US that will actually have a competitive advantage by being American made.

Obviously you don't see the real issue which is the high cost of production the US. Find ways to lower the cost of production here and you will have that fixed. I can think of many many ways to do this.

 

[MSTeacher]

All the bad things you are against are CAUSED BY or CREATED EXCLUSIVELY FOR the state. All of them. You should be the biggest anarchist here!

This is the point, so let me be clear: I do not believe that the tools of war and other destructive and regressive things are created for the purpose of use by the state. I believe they are created to fucking kill people. And whether there is a state or not, they will kill people and make peoples' lives miserable and keep them downtrodden.

And yes, if you want to construe this as some spiritual fatalism swirling around the battle between good and evil, fine.

I am not against war profiteers any more than I am against the states who carry out genocide. But the fact of the matter is that private bankers and industrialists have financed and built the majority of all wars for the last couple centuries - both sides. You used WWII as an example: who do you think financed the broke ass depression having Third Reich?

You are absolutely right, I am fixated, so to speak, on good and evil rather than on statism and anarchy, because in a nutshell I think good and evil are more fundamental and important expressions of the human condition than government and the lack thereof, and much more important to understand first before deciding on how to address them.

I'm also a realist bro. I use what's in front of me. Right now a big ass government and a bunch of broke ass out of work people are in front of me. So I'm working with that.

 

[guerilla]

I eagerly await the day when humanity can apply these things to an anarchist form of life without suffering intolerable collateral damage. I'm sure we have that in common.

They are suffering now.

We don't have much in common when your prescription is basically more of the same.

Step 1: Nationalize the Fed
Step 2: Withdraw funding from imperial overseas adventures
Step 3: Pass a 1% Tobin Tax
Step 4: Ban derivatives
Step 5: Reissue the Frazier-Lemke Act
Step 6: Create Tennessee Valley Authority style projects in every state
Step 7: Recreate a Public Works Administration and a Civil Works Administration
Step 8: Force the Fed to issue a few trillion in zero percent credit to industrial production and job creation, 100 next-generation reactors, 5k miles of maglev rail, lunar mining, etc.
Step 9: Tell the UN, the IMF, and the World Bank to go fuck themselves
Step 10: PROFIT

I don't mean this as an insult, but if you understood even the most basic economics, you would realize that at least of this is foolish, if not outright harmful to your own stated ends.

That's the problem with so-called pragmatists. You guys all think you can cheat reality by putting one foot in, and one foot out. You will claim it is "wise and sensible". YOU have the plan. YOU know what needs to be done. No wonder you hate markets. YOU alone know what is best. YOU will inform everyone what to do.

When the FED issues credit, as you wish it would, it hurts private individuals.

When you tax, you hurt private individuals.

When you ban anything consensual, you hurt private individuals.

What good are more bureaucracies in the greatest bureaucratic empire in the history of man? Do you also not understand this entire system is insolvent, and will soon be completely bankrupt?

What is it about government, that you believe you can do good by using violence and threats against innocent people? Why do you believe that some men are better conditioned to rule others? Why do you believe in the power of the state but not in the creativity, energy and spirit of the individual?

Some of you guys are so clueless economically, you think if you build bridges and highways in the digital era you're somehow going to create prosperity and economic growth. Basically, you guys think it is still the 1930s. And I've got bad news for you who believe the FDR myth as taught in schools, but the economic recovery didn't come until AFTER the war ended.

I don't know. I mean, on the one hand, you like to say, "But I am a good person, I care about people" and then on the other hand, your solution consists of hurting people and running over their capacity to make free choices.

The real sin in this, and why I encourage you to learn economics, is that your positions are cognitively dissonant. You can't achieve what you *say* you want by taking the means you've laid out. 2 + 1 != 4.

You're like Luke when he was in his idiotic Ron Paul phase. He hopes against logic, reason, principle etc, that somehow, he can fuck his way to virginity. And that's exactly your solution, while sneering down your cynical nose at people who have positions which are moral, principled and validated logically, and in some cases, scientifically.

Sad.

 

[guerilla]

I am unsubbing from this thread. I have work to do and the level of ignorance around here is really fucking depressing. You have grown ass adults who cannot understand very simple cause and effect that many children grasp instinctively.

 

[lukep]

Dayum. Don't take it too personally, MST, The bulk of that anger was meant for me.

He's right though, just not very patient.

 

[Moxie]

What is it like to have Asperger Syndrome?

lack of flexibility in thought

finds it difficult to figure why other people think as they do, has tantrums

Difficulty appreciating thoughts, feelings and opinions of other people as being potentially different to one’s own

find it hard to understand why their behaviour has offended or bothered others

Rigid thought patterns which find new concepts, planning, consequences and abstract thought difficult

Black and white thinking – seeing only one or two options to any situation, an all-or-nothing approach to life with a difficulty to perceive other options or degrees

narrow focus in both thought and action where the individual is unable to consider other perspectives

The tendency towards black and white thinking may result in unrealistic choices and perspectives


JUST SAYIN' LOL

 

[lukep]

D'oh!

I couldn't help but LOL at that one.

 

[pinchyfingers]

In truth, we're undergoing a structural realignment, similar to the shift from farms to industrialization. arty-smiley-004: Many of the lost jobs are never coming back. This is the digital age.

Adapt or get paved over.

Exactly. Ignoring the questions concerning government for now, the biggest thing that will help the economy is people realizing that things have changed.

A few generations ago people were asking "Where is my farm?" Now people are asking "Where is my job?" Well, at some point the family farm wasn't useful to our economy, but people still felt entitled to working on a farm. Now people feel entitled to having a job, but their jobs aren't relevant.

There is plenty of opportunity for people to take responsibility for their income instead of relying on employers, but Americans are mostly fat, lazy, pussies with extreme entitlement issues.

 

[lukep]

^No politician is every going to say: "You just have to accept that your job isn't coming back." He'd be voted out so fast it would be called Impeachment.

So the more relavant problem here is again government. :thumbsup:

 

[Aylian]

Stop using force on other human beings and leave them alone to pursue their self-actualization in all aspects of life? Just a thought.

 

[Aylian]

So the more relavant problem here is again government. :thumbsup:

Technically no. The problem is the stuff between people's ears. If enough people didn't worship at the altar of government, then government would cease to exist, first in the mind and then as a physical manifestation of the mind.

 

[P.Sharma1720]

The government should focus on the social issues about the society rather than the political issues around the world and less the cost of military services.

 

[Benji49]

For US in particular, find some way to fix the pension crisis.

In way too many private and government organizations there is an excessive transfer of capital from working (employees) to non-working (retirees) that completely saps the morale and energy of the organization (whether public or private).

Too many of you guys think it is a battle between the Left and the Right but you are being suckered. The competition for the wealth of the nation is between the young and old and grandopa getting the honey and grandkid Johnny is getting the bee stings.

That 55 year-old millionaire who doesn't want to pay a surtax and that 57-year old public pensioner are on the same side. The winning side.

Guess who is on the other side, the losing side?

You. I'm looking at you.

 

[lukep]

Technically no. The problem is the stuff between people's ears. If enough people didn't worship at the altar of government, then government would cease to exist, first in the mind and then as a physical manifestation of the mind.

But who put that stuff between their ears?

If you could remove all the bad thoughts in there today but they still existed somehow, wouldn't they just start to re-educate the masses again?

For US in particular, find some way to fix the pension crisis.

In way too many private and government organizations there is an excessive transfer of capital from working (employees) to non-working (retirees) that completely saps the morale and energy of the organization (whether public or private).

That is actually one of many such reasons that this country is DOOMED in the near future.

A valid reason to be sure, but no worse than the fact that most jobs now exist overseas and aren't coming back until murikans get off their spoiled asses and do menial labor again... Or the very likely Hyperinflation period we aren't going to avoid... Or any of the recent treasonous acts by the executive branch to destroy the middle class.

My wife wants me to move to another US city but I just can't see that as an acceptable idea anymore. This country just doesn't have many years left in it... Too many apocalypses headed straight for us.