Street lights are about to start recording your every sound and motion

[kamired2]

Yeah, I always tend to look at things like this from the perspective of myself, a good citizen. Does a street light watching me walk impede on my freedom? Does the ability to detain me for terrorism impede on my freedom? I'm not a terrorist and I'm not a criminal. It wouldn't bother me any more than security cameras at stores/airports/casinos that watch what I do. Why are you against things that would cut crime?

I always find it overly dramatic when people take issues like this and say "Oh noez America is losing the freedom we once all loved and cherished!"

We still are the land of the free.

Cardinal Richelieu once said: "If one would give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest man, I would find something in them to have him hanged."

Privacy is of the utmost importance because without it, information gained through surveillance gets abused, by for example being sold to marketers or used to spy on political enemies. Even if I have nothing to hide I don't want my every move to be traceable and recordable, widespread police surveillance is pretty much the definition of a police state, and I don't think I have to explain why that is bad.

 

[kamired2]

I'm guessing Goober always plays devil's advocate because it's easier than taking a real stance on something that he might get schooled on. That way, you know, he can always be like "hey bro, I was just playing devil's advocate." So maybe he's not really like a woman.

(just playin devil's advocate)

The sad thing is so far he's winning because you all are acting like a bunch of 14 year olds calling him a woman or some other shit

 

[Kiopa_Matt]

I don't consider monitoring at streetlights to be a loss of my privacy.

Think of it like this. Say later on in life you decide to become a journalist, or maybe end up starting a popular blog on controversial subjects. Some bureaucrats decide they don't like you, but they can't do anything about it because of freedom of speech, and all that.

Instead, they just go through your file, which contains 1TB of data on your life. There's so many laws these days, it's far easier to be illegal than legal, so within that 1TB they'll find at least a few reasons to stop by for a visit. They come to your house, ask to have a chat, and since you're such an upstanding citizen, you agree. They get you into an interrogation room, your nervous, stumble on your words, maybe inadvertently say a half-truth, or whatever. So now you're suspicious and uncooperative.

That type of thing will happen. Well, not WILL happen, it already does.

 

[SUP3RNOVA]

Now I can't tell if you're trolling or you're completely ignorant.

And I can't tell if you're trolling or just making up childish stories that you believe in.

Do you actually think if the army came to your door to arrest you for terrorism that they'd want to hear the crazy shit you say and try to reason? "Hey, I think you have the wrong person. Let's talk this out, this is going to be entertaining!"

The army would never come to my door arresting me for terrorism, that's why it would be hypothetically entertaining if it did happen. I'd remain calm and answer any questions they had.

They're going to barge in, take all forms of your dignity, communication and documentation, shoot your yorkie and chihuahua in the head, disrespect your family, and throw you in some fucked up private facility where you won't see light for years.

That sounds like a movie. I think a movie would be made if that happened to me. Back to reality...

Wake up from your fantasy state and stop living in denial.

I live in the real world, where I have no fear of being arrested for terrorism just like I have no fear of anybody recording me driving by a street light or being taped ordering fast food.

 

[kamired2]

Think of it like this. Say later on in life you decide to become a journalist, or maybe end up starting a popular blog on controversial subjects. Some bureaucrats decide they don't like you, but they can't do anything about it because of freedom of speech, and all that.

Instead, they just go through your file, which contains 1TB of data on your life. There's so many laws these days, it's far easier to be illegal than legal, so within that 1TB they'll find at least a few reasons to stop by for a visit. They come to your house, ask to have a chat, and since you're such an upstanding citizen, you agree. They get you into an interrogation room, your nervous, stumble on your words, maybe inadvertently say a half-truth, or whatever. So now you're suspicious and uncooperative.

That type of thing will happen. Well, not WILL happen, it already does.

Yeah if you look at the kind of shit the US is pulling to fight those in even remote contact with WikiLeaks it becomes quite disgusting.

The US Government Keeps Harassing a UW Researcher Who Speaks for WikiLeaks

Now imagine they had surveillance data of your day-to-day lives, they'd even have substantial evidence to do this to whoever they want.

 

[SUP3RNOVA]

Privacy is of the utmost importance because without it, information gained through surveillance gets abused, by for example being sold to marketers or used to spy on political enemies. Even if I have nothing to hide I don't want my every move to be traceable and recordable, widespread police surveillance is pretty much the definition of a police state, and I don't think I have to explain why that is bad.

I still don't see the "privacy" on recording what streets you drive on and what stores you visit. I COULD see where this leads to valuable information sold to marketers, but I'd be a hypocrite if I called that out. I love that I can demographically target my Facebook campaigns down to precise interests, much like targeting people by what stores they visit.

 

[SUP3RNOVA]

They get you into an interrogation room, your nervous, stumble on your words, maybe inadvertently say a half-truth, or whatever. So now you're suspicious and uncooperative.

This is where you make your point, and is also where you lose me.

I can't for certain speak on situations that I've never been in, but I can think about how I'd react to the situation. I don't know why I'd be nervous or stumble on my words, unless I had something to be nervous about.

Using your example, if I wrote a blog on controversial topics I'd answer whatever they wanted to know. And if my blog wasn't on a topic they liked and made them suspicious, I wouldn't care either because the only thing I'm doing is exercising my freedom of speech. Unless I was actually conspiring something, I'd see no reason to be nervous.

Making it more applicable to myself, I don't see why I'd start a controversial blog in the first place.

 

[misenlai]

I still don't see the "privacy" on recording what streets you drive on and what stores you visit. I COULD see where this leads to valuable information sold to marketers, but I'd be a hypocrite if I called that out. I love that I can demographically target my Facebook campaigns down to precise interests, much like targeting people by what stores they visit.

at least we will see less PDA

 

[guysmy]

Cardinal Richelieu once said: "If one would give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest man, I would find something in them to have him hanged."

Once video surveillance is in place what is the next logical step? I’d wager audio recording.

This is far scarier due to the point made in the quote above. If an individual is expressing extreme political opinions on the street (via keyword triggers), he or she may be silently investigated or maybe even targeted.

Suddenly it’s not about monitoring just our actions but our thoughts and opinions in real-time as well.

We lose our liberties by letting incremental changes fly. Consider the analogy of the frog getting cooked because the temperature went up gradually.

 

[kamired2]

I still don't see the "privacy" on recording what streets you drive on and what stores you visit. I COULD see where this leads to valuable information sold to marketers, but I'd be a hypocrite if I called that out. I love that I can demographically target my Facebook campaigns down to precise interests, much like targeting people by what stores they visit.

Different people have different needs for privacy, yeah you might not care about getting filmed while going about your day-to-day life (although I doubt you do), but there's many other people who do need control over their personal information including those that have escaped abusive relationships, have been bullied all their lives, have unusual religious or sexual preferences or are actively getting stalked and the list goes on and on.

There's also the question if public surveillance is even worth the $$$. British Home Office found that CCTV usage didn't affect crime rates. What makes it even worse is that there's plenty of examples of this kind of data being abused.

Officer using database to spy on patrons of a gay club

A police helicopter equipped with an infrared camera was deployed to monitor protestors during the 2004 Republican National Convention in New York City, yet the officers used the camera to film a couple’s romantic activity on an apartment balcony.

I'd be genuinely curious to know what benefits there are to public surveillance, other than that you are fine with it.

 

[Napolean]

Ya I think you're kind of blowing what I said out of proportion. Nobody has actually addressed my thoughts, I guess everybody is too flabbergasted by them.

Would cameras in streetlights actually affect your life in any way? If so, how? Or are you just whiny because you're pee shy?

Hypothetically, if you had a nasty break up with a nutty significant other, who happens to have access to those camera feeds, then yes.

How secure would the feeds be? If they are transmitted through any kind of wireless technology, they can be intercepted by anyone with that specific skill set.

Even wired, if someone wanted to intercept the feed, it's possible.

Let's cross over into the criminal situations now. Let's say you decide to temporarily turn to a life of crime, for a day or so, unwittingly, because your tags expired.

Is it ethical for police to monitor license plates so they can leave you tickets the morning that your plates expire? Is it reasonable?

Or how about a 2011-2012 episode of Three's Company. Jack's trying to cater a big thanksgiving dinner, Crissy is on a vegan kick and is outraged because she thinks that Jack is undermining her request for a Tofurky dinner and proceeds to sabotage the dinner. As a result, Jack has to throw the whole spread out. The garbage bag looks suspiciously like a bag full of body parts, and Mr. Furley who now moonlights as a homeland security neighborhood watch officer, see's Jack trying to dispose of the suspicious looking bag in an over-filled dumpster. After failing this, Jack has to put the bag in the trunk of his car to take it to the dump in the morning.

Mr. Furley notifies the authorities and Jack is taken away on suspicion of murder. Since we passed the NDAA bill and because of a hilarious exchange between the arresting officers and Crissy, they decide to hold Jack indefinitely on suspicion of terrorist activity.

 

[Kiopa_Matt]

I can't for certain speak on situations that I've never been in, but I can think about how I'd react to the situation. I don't know why I'd be nervous or stumble on my words, unless I had something to be nervous about.

You've never read up on how they conduct interrogations, have you? They got that down to a pretty exact science.

"Well, we see here in your records that you were slingin' ABC offers for XYZ company a while back. You do know XYZ company has shutdown by the FTC last year, right? We were looking through your financial records, found some inconsistencies, and was hoping you could clear them up for us.".

Next thing you know, you're charged with some trumped up, bullshit charges. You shrug it off because the charges are ridiculous, and will never stand up in court with a jury of your peers. But no... the government prosecutors have that 1TB file on you, will sift through it, pick out the worst parts, and paint you as a bat-shit crazy lunatic. And trust me, with enough background information, 99.98% of individuals out there could be painted as insane by someone who is intelligent and trained.

Ever had a coffee with a friend on a park bench, and had a conversation that could be misconstrued? Maybe you said you didn't think the Koran was so bad, and didn't like how the media paints muslims as terrorists? Or maybe you were harmlessly flirting with a cute college girl? Perfect, tape gets played, and you get asked if you're a terrorist sympathizer, or regularly cheat on your wife, or whatever. Obviously it's false, but it doesn't matter, because it plants the idea in the jury's mind.

Next thing you know, you no longer have any dignity, and are sitting in a cell for the next 5 years. You didn't actually do anything wrong, but the government decided they don't like you, so they worked the legal system in their favor to silence you. And the only reason they were capable of doing that is because they were able to gather a huge 1TB file on you.

You don't see an issue with that? Or do you think it's just unrealistic?

 

[IceToEskimos]

the government protects me

implying a gross misunderstanding of both the concept of government, and the definition of protection.

 

[SUP3RNOVA]

Different people have different needs for privacy, yeah you might not care about getting filmed while going about your day-to-day life (although I doubt you do), but there's many other people who do need control over their personal information including those that have escaped abusive relationships, have been bullied all their lives, have unusual religious or sexual preferences or are actively getting stalked and the list goes on and on.

First, I honestly do not care if anybody sees my day to day activities. Today I went to the bank, Tim Hortons to get coffee, and then back to my place for work. Second, the bully/stalker issue is a problem with the stalker hacking the feeds, not the actual government, right?

There's also the question if public surveillance is even worth the $$$. British Home Office found that CCTV usage didn't affect crime rates. What makes it even worse is that there's plenty of examples of this kind of data being abused.

Officer using database to spy on patrons of a gay club

A police helicopter equipped with an infrared camera was deployed to monitor protestors during the 2004 Republican National Convention in New York City, yet the officers used the camera to film a couple’s romantic activity on an apartment balcony.

I said before, my actual problem with this would be the cost, not the infringement on freedom. So I agree with you there.

I'd be genuinely curious to know what benefits there are to public surveillance, other than that you are fine with it.

I said I was indifferent to the principle of it. Potential benefits? Check the link Yucky posted earlier about Palantir. The benefits would be catching criminals.

 

[SUP3RNOVA]

How secure would the feeds be? If they are transmitted through any kind of wireless technology, they can be intercepted by anyone with that specific skill set.

That has nothing to do with the issue/principle of the government/state monitoring it. It's like saying MasterCard is at fault for allowing electronic transactions at stores that criminals can hack and steal data from.

Even wired, if someone wanted to intercept the feed, it's possible.

And that person would be a criminal. This isn't about them.

Let's cross over into the criminal situations now. Let's say you decide to temporarily turn to a life of crime, for a day or so, unwittingly, because your tags expired.

Is it ethical for police to monitor license plates so they can leave you tickets the morning that your plates expire? Is it reasonable?

Ethical? Yes. The law is the law. Reasonable? That's subjective. I recently got pulled over for speeding and talked myself out of it. Instead, the cop cited that the address on my license didn't match my current address because I just moved. I had 10 days to notify the DMV and the ticket would be dismissed. I complied and didn't pay any fine. If you were automatically mailed a ticket for a license 1 day expired, in most cases you'd be given a short period of time to correct it.

Or how about a 2011-2012 episode of Three's Company. Jack's trying to cater a big thanksgiving dinner, Crissy is on a vegan kick and is outraged because she thinks that Jack is undermining her request for a Tofurky dinner and proceeds to sabotage the dinner. As a result, Jack has to throw the whole spread out. The garbage bag looks suspiciously like a bag full of body parts, and Mr. Furley who now moonlights as a homeland security neighborhood watch officer, see's Jack trying to dispose of the suspicious looking bag in an over-filled dumpster. After failing this, Jack has to put the bag in the trunk of his car to take it to the dump in the morning.

Mr. Furley notifies the authorities and Jack is taken away on suspicion of murder. Since we passed the NDAA bill and because of a hilarious exchange between the arresting officers and Crissy, they decide to hold Jack indefinitely on suspicion of terrorist activity.

They'd ask Jack why a bodybag is in his trunk. Jack would explain the entire story. The authorities would search said bag and find food, perfectly matching the story. Witnesses to the dinner would agree with Jack's story, and there would be absolutely no evidence that he was a terrorist. Jack would go home a free man.

 

[SUP3RNOVA]

"Well, we see here in your records that you were slingin' ABC offers for XYZ company a while back. You do know XYZ company has shutdown by the FTC last year, right? We were looking through your financial records, found some inconsistencies, and was hoping you could clear them up for us.".

No, I wasn't aware of that. What inconsistencies did you find?

Next thing you know, you're charged with some trumped up, bullshit charges. You shrug it off because the charges are ridiculous, and will never stand up in court with a jury of your peers. But no... the government prosecutors have that 1TB file on you, will sift through it, pick out the worst parts, and paint you as a bat-shit crazy lunatic. And trust me, with enough background information, 99.98% of individuals out there could be painted as insane by someone who is intelligent and trained.

Thank goodness we have rights to lawyers that have access that that 1TB file as well.

Ever had a coffee with a friend on a park bench, and had a conversation that could be misconstrued? Maybe you said you didn't think the Koran was so bad, and didn't like how the media paints muslims as terrorists? Or maybe you were harmlessly flirting with a cute college girl? Perfect, tape gets played, and you get asked if you're a terrorist sympathizer, or regularly cheat on your wife, or whatever. Obviously it's false, but it doesn't matter, because it plants the idea in the jury's mind.

I asked for realistic examples. This is so obtusely hypothetical that I don't even know how to respond. I do think the Koran is pretty bad if you take it literally. Having a conversation with a girl is no evidence that you're cheating.

Next thing you know, you no longer have any dignity, and are sitting in a cell for the next 5 years. You didn't actually do anything wrong, but the government decided they don't like you, so they worked the legal system in their favor to silence you. And the only reason they were capable of doing that is because they were able to gather a huge 1TB file on you.

You don't see an issue with that? Or do you think it's just unrealistic?

The way you painted it, I think it's unrealistic.

 

[Flash4Ever]

With this motherfucker delivery guy cams can be useful

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKUDTPbDhnA"]FedEx Guy Throwing My Computer Monitor - YouTube[/ame]

 

[MSTeacher]

If we ever got to that extreme point in the future where the government was actually affecting my life based on all this "information" they're collecting, then I'd speak up about losing freedom and if it's bad enough, move abroad.

Dude. Shit is extreme. And that hypothetical future point to which you allude seems not far off at all.

It's not about whether or not this particular occurrence is offending. Isolated events mean comparatively little on their own. What is important is the trend. And the intent. And doing something about it before you find out you can't speak up or move abroad. It's not always that easy. The loss of free speech and mobility generally goes hand in hand with government affecting your life in extreme ways.

They're fucking tracking as much as they can. Everything. Biometrics, shopping habits, vacations, accounts, medical, EVERYTHING.

Information Awareness Office - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Don't for a second believe these projects were halted. They weren't. They never are.

They're tracking fucking antiwar groups and a shit ton of other undesirables. It all goes into massive centralized intel centers where we are all potential combatants ala the Patriot Act and other legislation.

Don't pretend shit's not out of control already because it sure as shit is.

How'd you like to be ID'd all the way home after attending a rally and have your biometric data fed into the TIA mainframe? Maybe get you landed on a no fly list or held up and miss a flight if you're lucky.

They profile your walk, your body language, your brainwaves

They're tracking your food and your feces

They are tracking YOU, yes YOU, right now

They can track just about any fucking thing they want

Ever heard of smart dust?

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7X9wP1zQcQ"]Ordering pizza in 2010 - YouTube[/ame]

Connect the dots. Think about the trend, not the isolated incidents. Think about who benefits. This kind of shit isn't years and years away. It's here and getting stronger faster.

If you're OK with a bunch of genocidal maniacs in control of armies and cops compiling profiles on you because you feel good about your upstanding role in society and make sure you're only naughty in private, well

good luck bro

It seems to me that the nature of the ultimate revolution with which we are now faced is precisely this: That we are in process of developing a whole series of techniques which will enable the controlling oligarchy who have always existed and presumably will always exist to get people to love their servitude.

 

[SUP3RNOVA]

No you don't. Our Government can now hold US citizens indefinitely without charge. If you are not charged, you have no right to a lawyer and no right to see evidence against you. You do realize this is already in place right?

The exampling I was addressing was a court case, in which you'd be entitled to a lawyer for.

You say you're ok with being monitored by the government 24/7

Hold the phone. When did I say that?

Do you think the Government should be allowed to monitor all electronic communication without a warrant?

No.

If you've got nothing to hide, you shouldn't care right?

True.

Do you think the government should be able to stop and search any vehicles for any reason at any time?

No.

If you've got nothing to hide, you shouldn't care right?

True.

Now tell me again how this isn't the definition of a police state. Tell me your definition of a police state so I know how much further they have to take it before even you say enough is enough.

It would have to be the condition of the state. That doesn't mean that isolated cases of it now are right, but that doesn't define the state. Not to be Mr Popular here, but I have a lot of friends (it's a pretty diverse group too). None of them have had any police-state encounters with the police. Neither has my family. Neither have I. Not once.

Again, I'm not saying that it doesn't happen and that people aren't searched without any apparent cause, and I'm not saying it's right if they were. But we're not in a state where you're not surprised if you're pulled over and searched once a month/year without warrant or cause.

 

[lukep]

I just can't believe you guys are feeding the troll this well.