Suicide Tourism, Eugenics, And The Death Doctor...

Trademark

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Jun 30, 2007
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Here's an interesting article about assisted suicide from the most recent issue of The Atlantic...

Death Becomes Him - Magazine - The Atlantic

I know a few of you enjoy reading in-depth treatments on a broad swath of topics. The above piece digs under the surface of the growing assisted suicide industry in Switzerland. The author speaks with one of the guys spearheading the effort, a few of his employees, and those who are paying for his services. The comments offered by a 97-year-old German physicist (deep in the article) are especially jarring.

If you have a few minutes to kill, it's worth a read. I hope you enjoy the piece.


dignitas-assisted-suicide-wide.jpg
 


I don't see how eugenics relates to the subject matter (which is primarily about assisted suicide) -- other than that this is one of those classic ethical debates. I myself can't get very worked up about someone old and sick wanting to die peacefully.

I think one valid reason to be hesitant about having assisted suicide be legal/unregulated would be that it would create a situation where people are trying to sell people on why they should do it, etc. In fact this guy seems to have a rebill going with his membership thing -- imagine if he had an affiliate program. :)
 
I don't see how eugenics relates to the subject matter (which is primarily about assisted suicide) -- other than that this is one of those classic ethical debates. I myself can't get very worked up about someone old and sick wanting to die peacefully.

I think one valid reason to be hesitant about having assisted suicide be legal/unregulated would be that it would create a situation where people are trying to sell people on why they should do it, etc. In fact this guy seems to have a rebill going with his membership thing -- imagine if he had an affiliate program. :)

Hell yeah and you know the buyer isn't ever going to charge back on you.
 
ya, suicide rates in switzerland are pretty big. Just 2 days ago someone threw himself in front of a train 200 meters away from where I live. Also, the fact that every young male swiss citizen that went to the army has a SIG 550 at home, doesn't really help.

I'm ok with euthanasia on people with incurable diseases but clearly against this.

suicide-booth.jpg
 
The comments offered by a 97-year-old German physicist (deep in the article) are especially jarring.

Thanks for the article. For those who said it didn't discuss eugenics, that's ridiculous.

And the comments by the 97-year old would be funny if they weren't so disturbing. He said the Germans had the right idea, but they were killing the wrong people because Jews were smarter than Germans, so they were in effect making the human race dumber.
 
Thanks for the article. For those who said it didn't discuss eugenics, that's ridiculous.

And the comments by the 97-year old would be funny if they weren't so disturbing. He said the Germans had the right idea, but they were killing the wrong people because Jews were smarter than Germans, so they were in effect making the human race dumber.

They probably didn't read it all.

His comments were disturbing (perhaps even more so given that without his work we might not be able to read this), but he does have a point of sorts. Society as a whole does need to deal with over population, while I don't favour eugenics anything that provokes debate and gets us away from the stigma attached to this subject is welcome in my book.

“the simple fact” that the people of Africa, the Middle East, and Asia are not as intelligent as people of European descent.
I thought it had been established (as far as IQ anyway) that people of Asian descent were more intelligent than those of European descent, who in turn where more intelligent than those of African descent. However, it seems more likely to be due to sociological rather than genetic factors, nurture rather than nature.

Great article, very interesting read. Cheers for posting it.

Kinda hits a personal nerve for me as over the last year or so there's been a lot of news coverage of a woman with MS fighting in the courts to prevent her husband from being prosecuted if she uses Dignitas, and my mum also has MS although fortunately not (yet) as far developed as the other woman.

It's great that people are now talking about this openly and there does seem to be a general agreement that people should have the right to choose when they die. I think everyone I've spoke to about this subject would rather choose to die than live in increasing pain or with mental degradation.

The sad ones are cases like that of a rugby player who was crippled and rather than live as a quadriplegic chose to visit Dignitas. He was only in his 20s, who knows in 10 or 20 years they might have been able to restore use of his body. Shame that he decided he couldn't live like that, but it was his choice.
 
I think we should keep the discussion of Eugenics out of it, as it doesn't have anything to do with voluntary euthanasia. I do think what the author was trying to highlight was the extremely questionable grey area when you let an individual or, even worse, a fanatical organization, take the reigns. Switzerland needs to grow some balls and set in motion an infrastructure to handle this growing "suicide tourism" to ensure that it gets done in a professional and ethical manner. And for the record, I wish the rest of the world would follow suit.
 
Interesting....

I hope to live a long life and get hit by a bus while having sex with a 22 year old when I'm 100.

If that plan goes bad though - I reserve the right to check out on my own terms.

I would never do it unless I knew I was terminal of course.
 
His comments were disturbing (perhaps even more so given that without his work we might not be able to read this), but he does have a point of sorts. Society as a whole does need to deal with over population, while I don't favour eugenics anything that provokes debate and gets us away from the stigma attached to this subject is welcome in my book.
This middle of the road stuff is so fucking dangerous.

What over population? We haven't over populated this planet. There are massive swathes of it which are not developed. If we wanted to, we could move to the water, we could move to outer space within 100 years.

And that doesn't even address, that socialism demands and creates population booms, capitalism stabilizes and reduces populations naturally, and yet it is the socialists calling for population control most often.

That is eugenics. It is a phony scientific reasoning for killing blacks, jews or anyone lacking the appropriate genetic (or intellectual) purity. It is another example of some people thinking they are smarter than nature, while cloaking their arguments in the veil of acting as nature intended.

It is pure evil wrapped in pseudo-scientific justification. Nothing less.

"Over population" is like "global warming". If enough talking heads and celebrities repeat it enough times, the legions of morons who buy Acai Berry rebills repeat it, and then it becomes fact, whether it is true or not.
 
Switzerland needs to grow some balls and set in motion an infrastructure to handle this growing "suicide tourism" to ensure that it gets done in a professional and ethical manner. And for the record, I wish the rest of the world would follow suit.
Why does Switzerland need to intervene beyond the enforcement of contracts?

Running to government every time someone wants to get something done just empowers tyrannical power in the hands of politicians, bureaucrats and demagogues, none of which are fit to tell sensitive, intelligent and compassionate people like you and I how to live our lives.
 
Why does Switzerland need to intervene beyond the enforcement of contracts?

Running to government every time someone wants to get something done just empowers tyrannical power in the hands of politicians, bureaucrats and demagogues, none of which are fit to tell sensitive, intelligent and compassionate people like you and I how to live our lives.

Heh. I knew you would be in here when I said that ;)

It was just the lesser of the two evils, IMO. What is the solution then? You can't tell me that he and his organization weren't at least broaching some questionable issues. I don't have a problem with people turning a profit over stuff like this I just think everything needs to be clearly disclosed and there should be strict guidelines to adhere to...maybe modeled after the business of Funerals homes?
 
It was just the lesser of the two evils, IMO.
I think that is a false paradigm. I don't see two evils here. I don't see the authority, even if there was an evil, for 3rd parties to tell anyone how to live their own life.

What is the solution then? You can't tell me that he and his organization weren't at least broaching some questionable issues. I don't have a problem with people turning a profit over stuff like this I just think everything needs to be clearly disclosed and there should be strict guidelines to adhere to...maybe modeled after the business of Funerals homes?
If you believe there is a market for disclosure (and I do), people could open up ratings agencies that earn commission on referrals or finders fees from people who want to be offed. People could social network, and expose firms that do not operate in an above board manner. So much of what we do every day is handled publicly, voluntarily. Jumping straight to the government using guns, directed by the most corrupt and loathsome human beings ever (politicians and bureaucrats) to do good, just seems so, counter-productive.

I really think that there are MASSIVE entrepreneurial opportunities to create ratings groups and networks online for hundreds of product and service offerings. People trust government less and less, and get more of their information from their peers and social groups. The capacity to virally communicate important information online rivals the ability of the state to announce emergency info, and in some cases, even exceeds the expensive bureaucratic mechanisms that have been in place for decades. If a War of the Worlds type thing happened today, it wouldn't be on radio, but on Twitter or Facebook. Because the audience can participate, unlike radio, a modern day War of the Worlds hoax would be debunked before anyone could commit suicide over it.

With regard to regulation and state power,

The issue is always self-ownership. When we start to regulate *anything* voluntary, we are diminishing freedom.

We live in an unsafe world, nothing is guaranteed, and every moment has risks. That's a fact of objective reality.

We can't legislate away risk for security without undermining and trampling our fundamental liberties to take risks in our own interest, for our own happiness and prosperity. There is no "one rule fits all" or "perfect planner" for everyone. Advancement as a society is contingent upon people trying different things, some failing, some succeeding.

Licensing, regulation, taxes, positive law, all hinder and diminish the process of social evolution.
 
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ya, suicide rates in switzerland are pretty big. Just 2 days ago someone threw himself in front of a train 200 meters away from where I live. Also, the fact that every young male swiss citizen that went to the army has a SIG 550 at home, doesn't really help.

I'm ok with euthanasia on people with incurable diseases but clearly against this.

suicide-booth.jpg

how many deaths are caused each year due to the govt requirement for male citizens to bear arms?
 
Licensing, regulation, taxes, positive law, all hinder and diminish the process of social evolution.

All are perpetuated by a democratic system that guarantees the state will maintain a monopoly on coercive force. A state that plans for the collective, redistributes wealth at the drop of a hat, makes the populace dependent on entitlements, and sends its citizens to war on a whim.

These things happen due to the coercive appropriation of private property and a complete lack of respect for voluntary contracts. And yet the populace continues to vote and put these charlatans in DC.

The Road To Serfdom, indeed.

There are no shades of liberty. We either have it or we do not.
 
What over population? We haven't over populated this planet. There are massive swathes of it which are not developed. If we wanted to, we could move to the water, we could move to outer space within 100 years.

I'm going to try to avoid this turning into another political debate, but just to quickly address that point.

Leaving aside for now what we may be able to do sometime in the future (such as farm distant planets). There is a finite amount of usable space and resources on Earth and we are reproducing and consuming at a rate that is not sustainable. I don't have time to search for the actual figures but if everyone used the same amount of resources as those of us who are relatively wealthy we would need around 5 more planets to sustain us and that's not considering the exponentially increasing population.

Maybe the issue isn't with over population at all, it's with over consumption? Or maybe it's with seemingly accepted philosophy that growth is desirable?

I know you disagree, but assuming there is a problem with over population the only form of population control that makes sense is education and relief of poverty. The more educated and wealthier we are are, the less we reproduce. However we also consume more so over consumption will still be an issue until we either start farming other planets, kill ourselves in wars over the limited resources or deal with growth and our desire for it.