The Drug War....

[DanWesson]

y'all realize that legalizing this stuff increases the pool of the peeps that are beating/robbing/stealing/swerving down the road, right?

Is there any strong evidence supporting this?

I've been in the legal field a long time, seen lots of (often) non-violent peeps get nailed by drug charges. But I can't think of a single occurence where the person facing drug charges was minding their own biz when they got caught with them. Seems that they were always getting in a fight with the neighbors, stealing a car radio with a joint intheir pocket, throwing punches at a bar, or swerving through a school zone in a haze at 80, when police first contact them and, Surprise, they have drugs on them.

All of those were breaking the law. Legal or not, I don't see that much would change here. They are already subject to face arrest and whatever legal repercussions of their activities. A certain criminal element exists irrespective of laws. Take gun laws, for instance. Increased regulation has not reduced the use of firearms in criminal activity. Much evidence even seems to indicate the converse.

So, are there quiet pot-heads out there minding their own biz and doing whatever they freely want to their own bodies? Sure. But those guys aren't getting arrested or facing drug charges anyways, so I don't think as a general rule, their rights are getting too infringed on anyways.

Most states still do not have reasonable medical marijuana laws. I imagine a majority of pot smokers would prefer an easy, legal method to get their intoxicant of choice, and they are arguably less of a threat to public safety than their alcohol-using counterparts.

Fact, the stuff isn't good for you. You can ramble all you want about "its all-natural, it just calms me, not like booze/cigarettes, blah blah blah". Bullshit, rattlesnake venom is natural, so is arsenic, that doesn't make it healthy. I have seen a lot of peeps harmed by other's drug use, through no fault of their own. The WOD has huge failures and problems, but so do most large-scale government operations IMO. Straight legalization under the guise of "people need their freedoms" isn't the answer. The peeps who are doing it "responsibly" aren't the ones getting arrested and serving time anyways for the most part.

I respect that you likely have more experience in the legal arena around this topic than most of WF combined, but your arguments in this post aren't sound. I really wish you hadn't chosen the "it's not good for you" tack as we are beginning to see the rumblings of these types of arguments for increased food regulation.
And, to your point about the one's using "responsibly," you may be correct in the incarceration rates, but these folks are subjected to unreasonable risk because of a few retards who would be criminals whether or not drugs were legal. If I'm going to a party and want to take a twelve-pack of beer, I can transport it without any fear. If I want to take a sack of weed and a pipe, I could be arrested and at minimum spend an evening in jail. The kicker is, if I drink those beers and get behind the wheel, my risk of harming others is MUCH greater than if I consumed the illegal drug under the same circumstances.

 

[Kiopa_Matt]

y'all realize that legalizing this stuff increases the pool of the peeps that are beating/robbing/stealing/swerving down the road, right?

I'll play devil's advocate, and say ostracizing an entire group of people such as drug users only exacerbates the problems of beating, robbing, stealing, etc. If you cordon off an entire section of the populous, tell them they're all lowlife scumbags, and drill that message into the entire populous for decades, well, there's a good chance they'll become lowlife scumbags. Only a very small percentage of the populous has the mental strength and stamina to go against the grain of what everyone and everything tells them. Most will succumb. You tell someone they're a lowlife hood rat all their life, they'll more than likely become a lowlife hood rat.

What's the problem with someone walking into a corner store, grabbing a soda and a joint, then smoking it while walking down the street without worry? Happens all the time in downtown Vancouver, for example, and nobody thinks twice. I'd say that's far better for society than forcing people to act like some retarded James Bond wanna-be. going to pay phones in shitty areas of town, using code in text messages, meeting in an alley or parking lot, all just to evade the cops. That type of shit I bet has a HUGE influence on how people view themselves and society, and probably with far more negative effects than getting high for a few hours.

That, and remember why the drug laws became so strict in the first place. It wasn't because of a bunch of punks in Detroit. It was because of massive, well organized and well funded mafias, and guys like Pablo Escobar. They were controlling city halls, law enforcement agencies, etc.

 

[Moxie]

The problem from a law enforcement perspective is that you can measure BAL of a drunk driver but you can't measure how high they are on anything else which would make enforcement of driving laws regarding drug use a nightmare.

That's something that they already have to deal with.


Drug Recognition Expert - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Drug Recognition Expert (DRE) police officers are trained to be able to identify drug impaired drivers. DRE refers not only to the officers themselves, but to the 12-step procedure that these officers use.

 

[Dumbass]

For Herb- Amsterdam is the role model for legalization. I have also been to Nepal and areas of Australia where it is lax/legal.

Simply put, when you put it out there it loses its scarcity factor and that helps tone down the demand some.

For other drugs, not quite as simple. When left to our own devices our country apparently went to hell on opium in earl 1900 era-leading to some of our drug laws that are still in effect.

You see how adderall is abused, meth, and coke. I'm not sure how putting these in the store for everyone would effect our country. They outlaw hard drugs in Amsterdam/Holland for a reason, and I am inplied to respect how they do things enough to think that there reasoning is well thought out and tested.

 

[cardine]

y'all realize that legalizing this stuff increases the pool of the peeps that are beating/robbing/stealing/swerving down the road, right?

WF is pretty pro-legalization & pro-drugs, so I'll take the other side of the equation for argument's sake. First, the disclaimer that I truly don't give a damn what you do to yourself in the privacy of your own home. If you want to drink cat urine from the privacy of your own apartment, that's cool by me. But if cat urine is a powerful hallucinogenic, and then you decide it'd be cool to go drive on the same roads that my sober ass is coming home from the office on, we now have a problem. I'm not a believer in protecting people from their own stupidity, but I do believe in protecting everyone else from the consequences. It's more like fast-food to me, keep putting this crap in your body, but don't expect me to pay for socialist health care, or widen the doorway to my public biz cuz your big ass doesn't fit through it now.

I've been in the legal field a long time, seen lots of (often) non-violent peeps get nailed by drug charges. But I can't think of a single occurence where the person facing drug charges was minding their own biz when they got caught with them. Seems that they were always getting in a fight with the neighbors, stealing a car radio with a joint intheir pocket, throwing punches at a bar, or swerving through a school zone in a haze at 80, when police first contact them and, Surprise, they have drugs on them.

So, are there quiet pot-heads out there minding their own biz and doing whatever they freely want to their own bodies? Sure. But those guys aren't getting arrested or facing drug charges anyways, so I don't think as a general rule, their rights are getting too infringed on anyways.

Fact, the stuff isn't good for you. You can ramble all you want about "its all-natural, it just calms me, not like booze/cigarettes, blah blah blah". Bullshit, rattlesnake venom is natural, so is arsenic, that doesn't make it healthy. I have seen a lot of peeps harmed by other's drug use, through no fault of their own. The WOD has huge failures and problems, but so do most large-scale government operations IMO. Straight legalization under the guise of "people need their freedoms" isn't the answer. The peeps who are doing it "responsibly" aren't the ones getting arrested and serving time anyways for the most part.

I know not all die-hard libertarians would agree with me on this, but what problem do you see with the government providing addicts access to these drugs, and in return requiring the addicts to attend rehab?

Then you don't have drug dealers taking over streets, you don't have kids getting involved with the drug trade at a young age, and you don't have to deal with drug wars between rival gangs. Addicts would be buying from people who can actually help and who have no profit incentive to keep them addicted to heroin.

The end result: Crime will go down, less people will be addicted to drugs, government spending will not go up (any cost in these programs would be offset by the decrease in the amount of cops needed), and the overall quality of life would go up in crime ridden areas.

Is it perfect? No. But it's certainly better than the clusterfuck we have going on right now.

Then, when drug dealers aren't the ones supplying drugs, we can transition to completely legalizing it and allowing businesses to sell it. If you think drugs are bad, there are more ways to stop an addict from using drugs when the provider of the drugs is not a criminal organization.

 

[DreamMachine]

The problem from a law enforcement perspective is that you can measure BAL of a drunk driver but you can't measure how high they are on anything else which would make enforcement of driving laws regarding drug use a nightmare.

We have roadside testing for drugs over here in the same way we have roadside testing for alcohol. It's a saliva swab that tests for the presence of any drugs in your system. So the technology exists, but you may not use it yet in north america.

 

[-joe-]

The problem from a law enforcement perspective is that you can measure BAL of a drunk driver but you can't measure how high they are on anything else which would make enforcement of driving laws regarding drug use a nightmare.

I know this doesn't apply to other drugs, but research shows weed just turns you into a sunday driver (i.e. drive more slowly and cautiously, and brake sooner) unlike alcohol which turns you into an aggressive driver with slow reactions.

Although, that'll be another psychological barrier for people to cross, we're not even too close to decriminalisation/legalisation yet.

 

[Kiopa_Matt]

Although, that'll be another psychological barrier for people to cross, we're not even too close to decriminalisation/legalisation yet.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the UK decriminalize week several years ago? Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought they did at least.

I know Canada did back in 2003 or 2004 I think, but the US got all pissy, so a few weeks later we criminalized it again.

EDIT: Nevermind, Canada never passed the bill. Was likely to pass, but US convinced Canadian politicians otherwise.

 

[Napolean]

Hmm.. So your argument is that we should legalize all drugs simply to avoid shoot-outs?

Among many other reasons.

There are many more dangerous prescription drugs on the market, people drive under the influence of those drugs without a second thought because a doctor told them to take the pills.

People die all the time from prescription drugs, even under doctor supervision. Shit happens.

The violence created as a result of the drug war is a con that far outweighs the benefits, everyone would be better off if the government got out of telling us what we can put in our bodies.

If you take ANY substance that impairs your ability to function in public, and you end up injuring or killing someone, then you should be prosecuted and made an example of. When judges throw around 20 year sentences like AOL CD's in the 90's for having a few ounces of plant, people get desensitized to it. It's much more rare to see someone injure someone else as a result of being under the influence of something.

Everyone can be angry at the accused and agree with the punishment enforced when an innocent person is killed because of someone else's negligence. Inconsiderate and irresponsible douche bags are never looked up to. You cannot say the same about a kid who was busted with possession and gets an unreasonable sentence because of it.

 

[-joe-]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the UK decriminalize week several years ago? Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought they did at least.

I know Canada did back in 2003 or 2004 I think, but the US got all pissy, so a few weeks later we criminalized it again.

EDIT: Nevermind, Canada never passed the bill. Was likely to pass, but US convinced Canadian politicians otherwise.

Unfortunately not, it got downgraded from Class B to Class C, but then a year or two later it got upgraded again, because the government thought leaving it as Class C was too much like approving of it (while leaving ketamine at class C) the re-upgrade got a bad response from the head of the official drugs board, who later got fired for criticizing them again.

In reality, though, not a lot's changed with the re-upgrade, all it meant was they could give harsher sentences, whereas in reality, growing for personal use is only gonna get you a suspended sentence. (they never give out the max sentences for weed)

It's not too bad though, being caught by a police officer with weed, providing it's only for personal use is just confiscation and a verbal warning, if they catch you 3 times, you're smoking by a school, or you're under 18, they take you in and give you a formal caution, I believe.

So, I suppose it's decriminalised to an extent. Not totally though. The verbal warning isn't put in their records, I don't think, so you can get warned more than 3 times, providing it's from different officers.

 

[Brian Cashins]

Didn't the US have this thing called Prohibition? How did that turn out? That's right, the underworld were killing it and the local, state, and federal governments were not reaping the cash. They legalized alcohol, and next thing you know boom for the economy, lol.
Hell, I'd be happy if the Feds would RE-DO their BS Drug Schedule and put the right drugs where they belong. Everyone is doing a drug, legal or not, so it's time to man up ans actually follow the science and stop covering up the facts.
After we grow up, we can then determine what's legal and what isn't.

 

[ly2 from WF]

y'all realize that legalizing this stuff increases the pool of the peeps that are beating/robbing/stealing/swerving down the road, right?

WF is pretty pro-legalization & pro-drugs, so I'll take the other side of the equation for argument's sake. First, the disclaimer that I truly don't give a damn what you do to yourself in the privacy of your own home. If you want to drink cat urine from the privacy of your own apartment, that's cool by me. But if cat urine is a powerful hallucinogenic, and then you decide it'd be cool to go drive on the same roads that my sober ass is coming home from the office on, we now have a problem. I'm not a believer in protecting people from their own stupidity, but I do believe in protecting everyone else from the consequences. It's more like fast-food to me, keep putting this crap in your body, but don't expect me to pay for socialist health care, or widen the doorway to my public biz cuz your big ass doesn't fit through it now.

I've been in the legal field a long time, seen lots of (often) non-violent peeps get nailed by drug charges. But I can't think of a single occurence where the person facing drug charges was minding their own biz when they got caught with them. Seems that they were always getting in a fight with the neighbors, stealing a car radio with a joint intheir pocket, throwing punches at a bar, or swerving through a school zone in a haze at 80, when police first contact them and, Surprise, they have drugs on them.

So, are there quiet pot-heads out there minding their own biz and doing whatever they freely want to their own bodies? Sure. But those guys aren't getting arrested or facing drug charges anyways, so I don't think as a general rule, their rights are getting too infringed on anyways.

Fact, the stuff isn't good for you. You can ramble all you want about "its all-natural, it just calms me, not like booze/cigarettes, blah blah blah". Bullshit, rattlesnake venom is natural, so is arsenic, that doesn't make it healthy. I have seen a lot of peeps harmed by other's drug use, through no fault of their own. The WOD has huge failures and problems, but so do most large-scale government operations IMO. Straight legalization under the guise of "people need their freedoms" isn't the answer. The peeps who are doing it "responsibly" aren't the ones getting arrested and serving time anyways for the most part.

Who the fuck has ever not done drugs because they are illegal? Nobody gives a shit if it's illegal or not so what the hell is the point in making it illegal?

The reason it's illegal isn't because the government give a fuck about us or our health and if you think that's the reason you need to do some serious thinking. The government doesn't give a FUCK about us.

They want control of us and they want to keep the millions and millions of pigs, prison guards, judges, and the rest of the goons employed and happy. Drugs being illegal generates MILLIONS of jobs. You think there is an unemployment rate problem now? Legalize drugs and it would create a fucking revolution due to insane unemployment.

The government will NEVER legalize drugs because too many people depends on them being illegal for employment.

AMURKIA, HOME OF THE FREE HERP DERP

 

[guerilla]

Mont, very poor argumentation.

 

[who_cares]

that nigga mont is one dumbass nigga

stick to the nerd shit, this street shit ain't for you nigga.. know your place and keep your stupid ass comments out of places you dont' know shit..

been drunk driving for years, got caught twice. made me stop after how much shit them niggas made me do and pay. driving intoxicated is a completely separate issue from legalization of substances.

even almost got killed from another driver coming at me on the wrong side of the highway, on a late night on the way home from da club, nigga must have been drunk but, i didn't give a fuck. i still did what i did for years, and lived life how i wanted. i remember that night drunk as fuck driving home but stoppin on my way to whattaburger for my drunken munchies, and seeing that car come right at me and i swerved by instinct and felt the left side of my car raise in the air because of it but.. i i didn't give a fuck.. this is the life of a nigga.. and i keeps it real..

fuck you mont, fuck you, white ass pussy bitch, fuck you.

i still miss drunk driving, man it's so tight.. i love my sound system and i love drivin fast and it's so much better when i'm drunk.. was doin' it for years. wouldn't trade it for anything else if i could, it's the best. but popo be out there fuckin with a nigga, ain't worth it in my eyes no more. fuckin white pussy ass bitches, fucking pussies, fuck them, scared ass niggas, i hate them. fuck them.

 

[ly2 from WF]

that nigga mont is one dumbass nigga

stick to the nerd shit, this street shit ain't for you nigga.. know your place and keep your stupid ass comments out of places you dont' know shit..

been drunk driving for years, got caught twice. made me stop after how much shit them niggas made me do and pay. driving intoxicated is a completely separate issue from legalization of substances.

even almost got killed from another driver coming at me on the wrong side of the highway, on a late night on the way home from da club, nigga must have been drunk but, i didn't give a fuck. i still did what i did for years, and lived life how i wanted.

fuck you mont, fuck you, white ass pussy bitch, fuck you.

PEWEP!!!!!!!!!

 

[Andrew Scherer]

that nigga mont is one dumbass nigga

stick to the nerd shit, this street shit ain't for you nigga.. know your place and keep your stupid ass comments out of places you dont' know shit..

been drunk driving for years, got caught twice. made me stop after how much shit them niggas made me do and pay. driving intoxicated is a completely separate issue from legalization of substances.

even almost got killed from another driver coming at me on the wrong side of the highway, on a late night on the way home from da club, nigga must have been drunk but, i didn't give a fuck. i still did what i did for years, and lived life how i wanted. i remember that night drunk as fuck driving home but stoppin on my way to whattaburger for my drunken munchies, and seeing that car come right at me and i swerved by instinct and felt the left side of my car raise in the air because of it but.. i i didn't give a fuck.. this is the life of a nigga.. and i keeps it real..

fuck you mont, fuck you, white ass pussy bitch, fuck you.

i still miss drunk driving, man it's so tight.. i love my sound system and i love drivin fast and it's so much better when i'm drunk.. was doin' it for years. wouldn't trade it for anything else if i could, it's the best. but popo be out there fuckin with a nigga, ain't worth it in my eyes no more. fuckin white pussy ass bitches, fucking pussies, fuck them, scared ass niggas, i hate them. fuck them.

Unlearn the internet, plz

 

[mont7071]

Some peeps are missing the point. Once again, I don't care what someone personally does/ingests, so long as it hurts nobody else. I'm saying that the peeps who are 'responsible" about it already don't have issues with the law, so most of these guys aren't really affected by drug laws/WOD anyways. The "system" doesn't really bother most people i know who use drugs (trust me, lots of attorneys do, even those who prosecute drug crimes), but don't cause problems for others when they do. About the biggest "problem" these people usually have is that the legality issue just makes their drugs more expensive to procure, that's all.

As was already said, nobody I know has any trouble locating buying drugs either. The responsible user isn't much affected by any cops or legal trouble anyways, because they aren't the getting caught doing something else stupid, and then found to happen to have drugs on them. I'm all for freedom, put whatever in your body you like, just don't drag someone else down, drive high, rob or attack, etc. I'm not saying drugs cause all users to do that, quite the opposite, just that those few who do do these things under the influence are a problem, and that's why the whole WOD has spiraled out of control and why outright legalization doesn't solve that problem.

 

[stick2Herbs]

Hmm.. So your argument is that we should legalize all drugs simply to avoid shoot-outs?

Am I the only one who does not want to argue with mont at all simply because he owns 3 luxury sports cars and I am not, nor will I ever be as successful as mont in life.

Like fuck Tell me what its like being on top. I'll never be there

 

[guerilla]

Once again, I don't care what someone personally does/ingests, so long as it hurts nobody else.

So you're for torts.

Want a cookie?

 

[Napolean]

The "system" doesn't really bother most people i know who use drugs (trust me, lots of attorneys do, even those who prosecute drug crimes), but don't cause problems for others when they do.

The responsible user isn't much affected by any cops or legal trouble anyways, because they aren't the getting caught doing something else stupid, and then found to happen to have drugs on them.

1.) If I had kids, I wouldn't ever let them drive my car to school. Schools get random drug searches by police dogs all the time, and if you just happen to be parked next to a car with anything in it, expect your car to get scratched up.

2.) We have the highest prison population in the world. Everyone knows someone in jail, if you don't have an immediate or extended family member in jail right now, you are probably a Cleaver.

3.) Teenagers aren't exactly known for their common sense. They make mistakes when their young, and its to be expected. If they make a mistake by driving home possessing, not under the influence, just simply possessing an illegal substance, and get pulled over for a minor traffic violation (or have you never had one of these either?), they are at risk of having their entire way of life taken from them. They get the wrong judge and they will have a felony on their record, will have a hell of a time finding a good job, even if they don't have to spend their college years in prison.

4.) Millions of people are affected by gangs. Gangs are financed through drugs. Gangs very likely would not exist without drugs, except for maybe those West Side Story type gangs who are excellently choreographed. In that case, at the very least, you get a nice show while you get mugged.

5.) I miss those West Side Story gangs. We need those back. We need greasers back, I can't stand all the bullshit culture that's coming out of younger generations now. The pieces fit, this is a result of our drug policy. Of all the bad things Nixon did, planting the seeds of emo culture was the worst.