The Real War in Iraq

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@hippy a good site about the philippines that offers and alternative view is Get Real Philippines! It is somewhat biased in the negative, but does offer a view into the problems most developing nations face.

PH is a good place, and if u know what u are doing is very safe. But it is not very user friendly. Situations in USA which are perfectly safe can be down-right dangerous here, and vice versa. It is advisable that you travel with a trusted filipino who can guide you. Simple things like crossing the street can be very dangerous :)

Probably if USA stopped all foreign aid to 3rd world countries and just did outsourcing it probably would help the average person a lot more. The thing is when the OFW (overseas foreign worker) sends money back, it goes to where it is needed. While most foreign aid is lost due to corruption, gov't bureracacy and just plain stupidity.

Prime example is construction of a nuclear power plant in PH (funded by the US when marcos was in power). The power plant was completed but fortunately was never powered up. Meanwhile billions of dollars wasted. Like gee, lets go build a nuclear power plant in a place which has a zillion insurgent groups, an unstable gov't and probably the inability to operate the plant properly. I honestly wonder which american politician's bright idea it was to construct a nuclear power plant in PH :), like what the fuk was he thinking :) Meanwhile USA gets upset when iran tries to build a nuclear power plant :).

Even simple things. Like digging a large hole for a foundation of a building. If you rent a backhoe it will cost you like $50/hour, meanwhile for $50 you can hire like 8 guys who will dig the hole for you in one day.

So an american foreign aide project might involve modernizing a farm, with tractors etc. It makes absolutely silly, when the most farmers niether have the money nor knowhow to fix the tractor when it breaks down, and because of cheap labour it is much more economical to have 1 man with a buffalo to plow the field.

Anyway i have deviated a bit :). Back to the iraq issue. Most problems are caused by failure to communicate. This is not so much an issue of failure to understand english per say, but a cultural difference.
In america if you leave ur door open on your house, unless a burglar comes in, most people will "respect your property". In PH especially in the rural areas an open door means people are free to enter and leave. So an american leaves his door open, and then is shocked to see 10 people sitting in his living room watching TV :).

When america occupies other countries, they build huge bases, on the bases it is like being in a little USA. They never really interact with the locals, and they always think that the american way is the correct way and all other ways are stupid (i am generalizing :)). For british/Oz/Canadian troops this is not as much a problem since they inter-act with the locals much more.

The consequence is that what americans may consider polite/proper behaviour in other countries is rude/insulting. And vice versa. This leads to all sorts of problems. A prime example is an american who lives 500m away from me (to be honest he is a very nice guy, just mis-understood). He has all sorts of problems with the locals. To the extent that someone even shot at his house. Ofcourse there is always a few hot-heads in the crowd, they will state stuff like typical americano, always thinking he can boss people arround. This adds gasoline to the fire. As a result the locals get more rowdy, the american attempts to retaliate (somehow they always seem to have the mindset that everything should be like in USA). Unfortunately sometimes the situation gets out of hand, and the american ends up another statistic :(.
 


that video makes me sick to my stomach. I had never even considered the possibility of that kind of thing happening. very naive of me i know, i dont agree with the war at all, we have people being murdered and starving to death here, lets get our own shit straight before we try to fix everybody else. also, if we lived within our means, instead of consuming 2/3 of the worlds resources, we wouldnt have to fight for what is rightfully somebody else's oil. we as a nation need a huge peice of humble pie. i am embarassed to be from the USA with the way our president, soldiers, and civilians are acting. im all for patriotism, but not blindly, i support things with my eyes wide open. this war is not something i can feel good about supporting.
 
that video makes me sick to my stomach. I had never even considered the possibility of that kind of thing happening. very naive of me i know, i dont agree with the war at all, we have people being murdered and starving to death here, lets get our own shit straight before we try to fix everybody else. also, if we lived within our means, instead of consuming 2/3 of the worlds resources, we wouldnt have to fight for what is rightfully somebody else's oil. we as a nation need a huge peice of humble pie. i am embarassed to be from the USA with the way our president, soldiers, and civilians are acting. im all for patriotism, but not blindly, i support things with my eyes wide open. this war is not something i can feel good about supporting.

Yes some of his actions and his superiors actions were illegal but nothing that is shocking. These are situations that have been played out in every war that has ever occured.

When we or any other country wage war to kill our enemy, stories like this will arise from it. Our march into Berlin was a necessary operation and very justified but I would bet actions such as these still occured to some degree. Thats the nature of war. You train a man to kill and give him the right to kill and a big gun and shit like this will happen, no matter what flag you fight under.
 
Yes some of his actions and his superiors actions were illegal but nothing that is shocking. These are situations that have been played out in every war that has ever occured.

When we or any other country wage war to kill our enemy, stories like this will arise from it. Our march into Berlin was a necessary operation and very justified but I would bet actions such as these still occured to some degree. Thats the nature of war. You train a man to kill and give him the right to kill and a big gun and shit like this will happen, no matter what flag you fight under.

Sad but true.

It seems the military hasn't kept up with the rest of society in a lot of ways. It's no longer ok to call a black guy a nigger but our armies encourage the use of pejorative terms such as Haji, and in how many other professions to the bosses get away with openly bullying junior employees?
 
how many other professions to the bosses get away with openly bullying junior employees?
LazyHippie: Are you really that stupid??? During an attack by your enemy, would you rather a “junior employee” was asked by his “boss”, “Jimmy Sweet Thing, would you mind firing that mortar so that we can keep our perimeter from being over run by people who wish to kill us? What? You’ll think about it? Well, thank you and when you decide something just let me know” or would you rather hear the “boss” scream at the “junior employee”, “FIRE THE FUCKING MORTAR!"
 
Sad but true.
It seems the military hasn't kept up with the rest of soeciety in a lot of ways. It's no longer ok to call a black guy a nigger but our armies encourage the use of pejorative terms such as Haji, and in how many other professions to the bosses get away with openly bullying junior employees?
I am not defending the guys actions, but i am being realistic.
And i am not picking on u hippy :) the innocence/niavity of civilians is baffling.

Example you are in charge of a platoon (30 men). You have platoon has been pined down by a machine gun. The only chance for survival is that the entire platoon gets up at once, and charges the machine gun. When u do that 1/2 of your guys will be dead or seriously injured. You have maybe if u are lucky 30 seconds to a minute to make a decision. The machine gun is picking off ur guys 1 by one and killing them. Obviously ur guys do not want to get up and charge the machine gun (no shit). They have to be more scared of you then they are of the machine gun. If they are not, when u yell charge u will be the only one standing up.


Really easy for civilians to be judgemental as they sit in thier nice easy chair in thier nice little house (not really being critical of u guys just u have no idea).

A fun experiment u can do.

Go dig a hole in ur front lawn. 1 meter by 3 meter and 2 meter deep.
Climb inside hole. Spend the next week inside hole.
Go get a friend to put water sprinkler for lawn close to hole.
Have friend randomly turn sprinkler on and off.
Also if u fall asleep for more then 2 hours have friend hit you on head with a stick so u wake up. Also tell friend not to allow u to sleep for more then 5 hours per day.
Also before ur week long experiment purchase canned dog food. You are allowed to eat 3 cans of it a day.
To make experiment more fun, have various people from the nieghborhood, throw rocks at you, rotten food, spit on you, and just yell insults at you in general.
If after 1 week after u are filthy, sleep deprived etc. If you do not want to kill someone for no apparent reason let me know :).

I am against the war in iraq, it is nothing more then imperialism.
On the other hand the poor yank soldier, who really has no idea why he is there besides his gov't told him he should be there ......
 
No one defending the racism then?

I wasn't really talking about the way orders are given in the heat of battle, that's expected and I wouldn't call it bullying. I'm referring to the denigration and belittling, and the physical punishment and abuse in training that results in way too many suicides.

A soldier needs to respect and trust whoever is giving them orders, using fear as a substitute for respect is a cheap, short-term tactic that shouldn't have a place in any aspect of modern society.

Then again, it's mostly more of the mindless sheeple we are talking about isn't it? I can see how fear would be the best method of controlling this flock when it's a pack-mentality they want.
 
Experiment sounds interesting do I get free rent, cheap beer and cigs and loads of time off too? How about a McDonald's in the hole?

Funny, the government here are good at "supporting the troops" by giving them better deals than everyone else on some stuff and also happy to pour billions into weapons that will never get used but when it comes to the little things like armour on the jeeps... One way to try to get support for the occupation I guess, making sure there are some easy pickings... :(
 
I am a pragmatist.
These methods have to be used if u wish to have an effective army.
Also on the modern battlefield, no such thing as a front line exists, in iraq for example the enemy is everywhere.

For starters the "weak" must be weeded out. Harsh methods have to be used.
99.9% of a soldiers time is spent doing boring repeditive tasks while surrounded in constant danger. (prime example going on patrol etc).

In iraq average age of front line soldier is probably 19. He is being lead by men who are like 22-24. He is probably from a lower class background, most likely poorly educated etc. Pack mentality is needed. If he actually had to think about what he was doing, he would go crazy.

Racism is needed. In any war, the enemy was always put down and made less then human. To pick up a gun and shoot someone is very difficult. In WW2 even only like 15% of soldiers would fire thier rifle directly at the enemy. Even in vietnam with better training techniques the ratio was only like 25%. If you make the enemy "not human" you increase the ability of the soldier to kill the enemy.

Armor on jeeps etc, will temporarily lessen casualties. In war things are in a constant state of flux. So as u come up with a new defense, the enemy manages to come up with a way to get arround it.

Even the M1-Abrams which is one of the best tanks in the world is not invunerable M1 Abrams - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
According to the article several where destroyed with Improvised explosive device - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A brave man, with a coke bottle filled with gasoline can take out an abrams.
The enemy has lots of men, so even if they lose 200 men to take out 1 abrams on the balance sheet it is well worth it. (cost of an abrams is many millions of dollars, not counting cost of training crew etc, gasoline and coke bottles are cheap :)).

I am not saying that what the soldiers do is morally right. I am saying if u want to win a war, that is what has to be done.

For the record, i think that the war is morally wrong, what USA did is illegal under international law etc. On the other hand i sympathsize with the poor yank soldier over there.
 
this is nothing lol i know of people in iraq that decapitated ppls wives in front of kids and then raped them. hooray to american soldiers they rule these terrorist scum bags.
 
I am a pragmatist.
These methods have to be used if u wish to have an effective army.
Also on the modern battlefield, no such thing as a front line exists, in iraq for example the enemy is everywhere.

For starters the "weak" must be weeded out. Harsh methods have to be used.
99.9% of a soldiers time is spent doing boring repeditive tasks while surrounded in constant danger. (prime example going on patrol etc).

In iraq average age of front line soldier is probably 19. He is being lead by men who are like 22-24. He is probably from a lower class background, most likely poorly educated etc. Pack mentality is needed. If he actually had to think about what he was doing, he would go crazy.

Racism is needed. In any war, the enemy was always put down and made less then human. To pick up a gun and shoot someone is very difficult. In WW2 even only like 15% of soldiers would fire thier rifle directly at the enemy. Even in vietnam with better training techniques the ratio was only like 25%. If you make the enemy "not human" you increase the ability of the soldier to kill the enemy.

Maybe there isn't an alternative, but if we keep giving poorly educated kids guns and pointing them at people who they don't see as human then we will see a lot more scenes like this.

However, it is good that we can see it and hear about it. This has been going on for centuries and it's only now we know about it as it happens and with less censorship although I'm sure there's plenty of stuff they keep from us. (Like this... tank? bah... :))
 
this is nothing lol i know of people in iraq that decapitated ppls wives in front of kids and then raped them. hooray to american soldiers they rule these terrorist scum bags.

Raped the headless wives, the kids or the "ppls"? Are your friends necrophiliacs, paedophiles or homosexual?

Hooray for the head chopping, kid fucking soldiers! Fuck yeah! :ak:
 
Wars such as the one in Iraq rarely get won by the occupying power. There are only a few examples of it ever happening. One was in Malaysia where the Brits sponsored a local tribe to basically go on a massacre spree.

Another also won by the Brits, was the Boer war. this involved rounding up Boer women and children, throwing them into concentration camps (which were invented by the British, not Germans) and basically committing genocide in where they died rapidly of diseases and all sorts in the camps. Eventually about a third of the Boer population was wiped out and the opposition finally gave up.

So you can imagine what a video like this is compared. "Liberals" get het up over this sort of thing so you can guess we'll not be resorting to Boer tactics with a Democrat. Decimating the Iraqi population would also contradict the NeoCons excuse for being their to help Iraqi people. Ergo the war lost. Oh well, at least these are interesting times, as the man once said.
 
In the eyes of the Iraqi people, yes. If a soldier from Iraq killed your family member, right in front of you, for no reason at all, would you trust any other Iraqi soldiers?

I know plenty of good people in the military. I lived on military bases until I was 18 years old. However, I'm not talking about my view of U.S. soldiers... I'm talking about their view.

And in their view, you better hide from the U.S. soldiers, because they'll shoot you in the head and blast your church for no reason at all.

how can you speak for all the Iraqi people?? Where did you get this info from? Is it an official pole that was taken and the result was no Iraqis want the US there?

B/c the polls that i have seen state the opposite....
 
how can you speak for all the Iraqi people?? Where did you get this info from? Is it an official pole that was taken and the result was no Iraqis want the US there?
B/c the polls that i have seen state the opposite....
Where did u get ur information :)
The polls probably are worthless regardless of what they state.
If the polls where conducted by americans they will not be going onto the areas which are anti-american.
Also there could be a tendency for iraqi's who are polled to lie, he might be thinking the person conducting the poll is a secret policeman etc.

According to this page (but then again it is a "liberal page")
Probably i can find right wing page with exact opposite :)
Iraq War Results & Statistics as of May 14, 2008

Daily Insurgent Attacks, Feb 2004 - 14
Daily Insurgent Attacks, July 2005 - 70
Daily Insurgent Attacks, May 2007 - 163
Estimated Insurgency Strength, Nov 2003 - 15,000
Estimated Insurgency Strength, Oct 2006 - 20,000 - 30,000
Estimated Insurgency Strength, June 2007 - 70,000


If the figures are accurate, it indicates

1) USA is losing the war.
2) Iraqi support for the insurgents is increasing. Like all guerilla's they have to have the support of majority of the people (otherwise how would they be able to hide out, carry out thier attacks, get supplies etc).
 
Intresting article
Unemployment Fuelling Iraq Insurgency
Unemployment Fuelling Iraq Insurgency

No shit sherlock.
What little infrastructure that iraq had was destroyed by the americans.
Now since there are even less jobs, all they can do is sit arround and complain how the yanks made thier lives even shittier.

Idle hands are the devils workshop ;)
 
Like all guerilla's they have to have the support of majority of the people

Sadr's army is especially good at this. It works like Hezbollah, doing community projects, settling disputes, basically running the slums. How else do you think the people and kids can be smiling and accepting candy from soldiers one minute then conveniently disappear whenever there happens to be an IED explode. Because **they were all in it** that's why.
 
The guy should be sent to prison for a very long time. What he did was terrible but he is the exception rather than the rule. You are correct an Iraqi citizen is going to HATE any US soldier for his actions but what about those that LOVE the US soldier for saving his child from a stray mortar etc.

This is just the nature of war. I am sure alot of the German citizens hated the US soldier in the end of the second world war.

Popeye....is that a heart I am actually seeing thumping in your chest :bowdown: lol
You are now eligible to join my "compassionate conservative" club, lol
 
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