When do you fire a client?

My response to them would be....

I'm sorry but I cant do this for you. I just had a large client contact me that is paying considerably more than the price I quoted you so I wont have time to take on any of these little jobs like yours for quite some time.

Call the little fish what he is, piss him off indirectly
 


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As others have said, unless you need the work, I'd be dropping this guy pretty fast.
 
After sending two invoices for payment, I sent another and called the client when the receipt that they had received it came back.

CLIENT: Why are you calling me?

ME: You haven’t paid and this is the third invoice I’ve sent.

CLIENT: It’s even more than the last one!

ME: Yes. The contract you signed stated that I would add a late fee for payment.

CLIENT: You mean I have to actually pay you? I thought you were joking!

ME: What on earth made you think that?

CLIENT: You’re a freelancer!

ME: And…

CLIENT: Well, you work for free! If you were supposed to be paid, you’d be called a paidlancer or something!
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From clientsfromhell.net.
 
I would be careful which advice you follow a good # seem to be a sure way to get a bad reputation or at-least known as someone who's hard to deal with, and if you want to keep doing CS work that's never good.


1. Let them markup the document. I prefer expectations are known from the get go. Charge more for additions/changes obviously.

2. Your hourly rate is what it is, you are charging that because that's what you charge. You could offer say 5% off the 'project' cost if they pay 100% up front. (I've had clients do this.)

3. Once you revise your project specifications to accommodate his additions and provide a new quote stick to the work outlined, and anything outside that he wants done charge him your hourly rate. No questions asked. I don't mind people like this, you make more $ at your hourly rate most likely anyway too. Don't let people nit-pick piss you off... look at it like an opportunity to make more money. This is why I always stress having a in-depth document that outlines the entire project / pages / features prior to starting for projects that are going to take more than a days work sometimes half day if it's more complex.

4. "Look, I can implement a tried a..." Don't be afraid to be firm like that, and let them know how it is. Clients need to be told things more often than negotiate with you about what they want. As a contractor you need to help them understand what they need isn't always what they thought they originally wanted. Once you become like this, and start showing the client you are in control and can guide them after the first project they often are amazed you did know what they want, and then the referrals, and additional projects come in.


If you didn't already quote him and could tell from the start he was going to take more time then your per-project cost should have been higher to account for the extra communications he will require. Remember you aren't just quoting the actually development time but communication, research, planning, etc...
 
CCarter said:
If you are thinking of dropping him then for the lulz, I'd ask him "Are you going to be a pain in my ass and micro-manage me every step of the way?" People are so thrown off by the directness of the question, they'll try to evade that by stating "Noooo... I just want to make sure the job is done... bla bla bla.", that's when you know that was the plan. Their immediate answer and body language (AND most importantly the reaction of people in the room that heard you, think partner) should tell you EXACTLY the situation you are going to face.


Also, I love boatburner's idea, and raise your rates on them. He will try to backpedal to the old rate. And the milestone communications, perfecto. There are several options for you to go. Just make sure you go the route that gives you control and power.

When you are in a situation where you have absolutely nothing to lose, since you don't NEED the money, but it would be good to have, you can use the technique to throw people way off, and get them to stop fucking around with you. People will tend to take you more seriously when you come at them directly when they attempt to fuck with you in these situations.

Once you leave, you can guarantee that the partners are going to have a discussion or argument on the matter, and probably will get a phone call from the 2nd partner wanting you to move forward. Back in the day, I used that technique several times and lost a lot of contracts, then 3 to 4 weeks later the people that were serious call me back wanting me to work on the project cause they respected me at that point and knew I was a no-bullshit solid person to work with that will get the job done.

It's a mind game at the end of the day.​
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Are you going to be a pain in my ass and micro-manage me every step of the way?
 
ToddW said:
3. Once you revise your project specifications to accommodate his additions and provide a new quote stick to the work outlined, and anything outside that he wants done charge him your hourly rate. No questions asked. I don't mind people like this, you make more $ at your hourly rate most likely anyway too. Don't let people nit-pick piss you off... look at it like an opportunity to make more money. This is why I always stress having a in-depth document that outlines the entire project / pages / features prior to starting for projects that are going to take more than a days work sometimes half day if it's more complex.
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^^ This. Not sure why so many people are saying, "go piss him off somehow". How is that going to help anything?

Just provide a very detailed set of specs, and break the quote down into different tasks / components, so he knows exactly what is costing what. If you believe he's going to be a PITA, add 10 hours to the quote for misc work / scope creep, and explain to him he may or may not be charged that all depending, as sometimes project scope does change mid-way. Then ensure to provide him with detailed timesheets so he sees where every minute went.

Of course he's going to micromanage you a little the first project. You don't know each other from a hole in the ground, and this is his business, so it's only natural he's going to keep a bit of a close eye on you. Then as ToddW said, if you prove yourself, come the second project he's most likely going to back off and give you more leeway.

That's happened to me time and time again. First project, clients are nervous, I put a smile on their face, and it's all good from there. 6 - 12 months down the road, it's a couple quick e-mails and 30 min phone calls, and I'm good to go for a 40 hour project at good pay. Anytime I recommend something, they just trust me, and that's the path we take.

Like it or not though, to gain that level of trust from clients, you're going to have to be in the trenches a bit getting micromanaged. That's just the way it works.
 
Kiopa_Matt said:
^^ This. Not sure why so many people are saying, "go piss him off somehow". How is that going to help anything?

Just provide a very detailed set of specs, and break the quote down into different tasks / components, so he knows exactly what is costing what. If you believe he's going to be a PITA, add 10 hours to the quote for misc work / scope creep, and explain to him he may or may not be charged that all depending, as sometimes project scope does change mid-way. Then ensure to provide him with detailed timesheets so he sees where every minute went.

Of course he's going to micromanage you a little the first project. You don't know each other from a hole in the ground, and this is his business, so it's only natural he's going to keep a bit of a close eye on you. Then as ToddW said, if you prove yourself, come the second project he's most likely going to back off and give you more leeway.

That's happened to me time and time again. First project, clients are nervous, I put a smile on their face, and it's all good from there. 6 - 12 months down the road, it's a couple quick e-mails and 30 min phone calls, and I'm good to go for a 40 hour project at good pay. Anytime I recommend something, they just trust me, and that's the path we take.

Like it or not though, to gain that level of trust from clients, you're going to have to be in the trenches a bit getting micromanaged. That's just the way it works.
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This is pretty much my experience with what I do. If it seems like someone is going to be a big pain in the dickhole region at first, I try to give them the benefit of the doubt. If things don't change over the first few weeks, I let them know that I won't be able to do any future work with them.

However, I do like the idea of firing a client by raising my prices, and I'll see about adding that to my repertoire.
 
potentialeight said:
However, I do like the idea of firing a client by raising my prices, and I'll see about adding that to my repertoire.
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People should do this as they scale. Especially consultants / contractors where you have no plan to hire / outsource. Get booked up, deliver results, increase prices, lose clients that don't value your service high enough. Repeat.
 
Even one of the red flags you mentioned would probably be enough to send me in the opposite direction. I'm all for working through difficult situations, but I avoid difficult people like the plague.

Some people would say to just charge more to cover the added hassle, but in my experience, that's not a whole lot better. Even if you get the client to agree to an insanely high rate, their attitude is going to put a cloud over many of the days you work with them. I consider myself to be reasonably good at not absorbing other people's dysfunction and moods, but even still, negative clients darken my mood a little - which, in turn, makes me less productive on my other projects.

And of course, if the guy is REALLY crazy, there's always the possibility of not getting paid, having him redo your work and try to give you partial payment, having him try to trash your reputation online, etc. I'll usually make one attempt to adjust their attitude and if that doesn't result in a complete adjustment from the client, I move on. There are far too many opportunities in the world to bother with people like that.
 
I'm definitely an advocate of firing PITA clients, but I usually don't do it until I know they're going to be a pain in the ass. Like others have mentioned, try to do it by raising your rates substantially. Personally, I tend to do that on subsequent projects if the first one doesn't go smoothly due to a client's neediness.

For the record, I don't work in design or development, but I do tend to work closely with designers/developers when clients are creating/revamping a website, creating a new ad campaign, or something similar.

The model I've gone to is either a 100% upfront payment for the project, a set monthly payment due at the beginning of the month if it's a long-term project, or the use of milestones with the first milestone being the initiation of the project. Only after a string of successful projects with a client and no payment issues do I consider working on a net 30 or full pay on completion.

Since you're a developer/designer it should be easy enough to set the whole thing up on a development server and live test site. Once the project is finished, or at various stages of development (milestones) the client can see that the work is coming along and you can be sure that you aren't giving the client work that is never going to be paid for.

It can be difficult to get clients to work on an upfront or even a milestone payment plan. This is especially true if you're working with businesses that are traditionally brick and mortar. Many of them are running on a net 30 payment system for virtually all of their B2B accounts. Real Estate agents are a little different, but most of them still don't get paid until after a house is sold. This type of payment plan can be difficult to get them to accept. Anymore, if a client refuses to this type of arrangement, I walk away. I've lost some potentially lucrative clients this way. I've also had quite a few cave at the outset or come back to me at a later date. I build in protections for myself, but also for them.

One of the best ways I've found of dealing with the deadbeats is to use a project management system that allows the client to see the work, but doesn't let them download the file until the invoice has been paid in full. I'm not sure how this would work with the development side of things, but it should work well for the design portion of projects.

My rule is to not fire clients until they give me a damn good reason. That could be because they are a PITA, or it could be because it's time for me to raise my rates and they can no longer afford me. In either event, unless a client has completely dicked you over, it's almost never advisable to take the nuclear option and treat them like a dick. If you're perceived to be a PITA to work with and word gets out, it will make it that much harder for you to get the type of payment arrangement that is best for you. Instead of goign down that road, just price them out of your service or tell them that you simply don't have time for the project for the foreseeable future.

Last but not least. I almost always work on a project fee. I have developed a fairly good sense of how long a particular project should take me. I set the project fee and clearly define the scope and goals of the project. Everything that is included in the project fee is laid out plainly and clearly before we move ahead. Any deviations from that scope incurs additional hourly fees. That hourly fee is also higher than the private hourly fee by which I set the project rate.
 
Thanks for all the input, very good info here.

This morning I got an email from the guy saying he wanted to meet this afternoon to go over everything he marked up in the DOC. Another one of the reason I stopped doing web design work, those people always want to meet in person when I prefer email. Whatever.

So 15 minutes after the scheduled time for the meeting, my bag is packed and I'm pushing out my chair to leave and he walks up. No polite stand up for the handshake from me, not when you're now showing me instead of just telling me you don't value my time. Some excuse about parking 4 blocks away. Lame.

Before he can say anything, I said roughly the following:

Before we go over these revisions, I think I need to explain some things to you so we're completely clear on how I work. You contacted me because you've seen my work, you like it, and you need me to do the same for you yesterday.

When it comes to services, your choices are Fast, Good, and Cheap, but you can only pick two. The proposal I provided to you is the best blend of those three. That "best blend" comes with over 15 years of web design experience and over 5 years teaching realtors how to market themselves online. And that is why my hourly rate is my hourly rate and it's non-negotiable. If it's a pain point for you while your business is growing, I'd be more than happy to add in extra revisions and adjust the phase price accordingly.

Along with the modifications to the proposal you'd like made, I will be adding a clause that allows me to cancel our relationship at any time if, solely at my discretion, I feel you are having unrealistic expectations on how the project should proceed and are stalling production with unnecessary revisions. You keep telling me you need this up and running as soon as possible, but there are fairly regular delays coming from your end.

Again, you contacted me because this is what I do.
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He actually said, "Well that sounds reasonable. Can we go over the revisions?"

For the multi-lingual stuff, he's fine with the tried and true method as long as I train his people (included for fee in the proposal already).

For the design side, now he wants me to hack the shit out of his lovely Elegant Theme because *SHOCK* it doesn't work the way he wants it to. Then later we may do a custom design. Fine, an extra phase with an extra fee.

So yes, he's still a pain in the ass. But now I have enough reason to revise the proposal in such a way that I will have the control, will get paid at least a significant chunk up front and periodically throughout the process, and can walk away at any time if he gets to be too much.

I have a few reasons for not wanting to just tell him to go take a hike. First, I'm technically working illegally here. He doesn't know that and it's a pretty easy loophole to talk/bribe my way out of, but it's easy for him to withhold payment with that over my head. Second, while I may not want to do web design in this tiny community, I may want to do some kind of online marketing here so I'd rather keep a decent name. Realtors tend to know lots of people. Third, I don't want it to reflect badly on the friend who referred me. She's a new hire and doesn't need any animosity towards her because one of her referrals was a dick.

So I did my best to keep it civil, retain control, and will revise the proposal in such a way that either I'm covered and paid well or they just say no and I happily move on.
 
It sounds like you handled the situation pretty perfectly. Good for you. You kept the client, you're getting security in the form of at least a partial upfront payment, and most importantly, you've established clear guidelines on how you approach projects and work. In short, you established that he's paying you for a service and your expertise; you're not his employee who he can dictate terms to. It's a distinction that matters and one that many clients rarely get without being told so explicitly.

You don't go to your mechanic and tell him how to fix your car and what you're willing pay. They tell you what they're going to do, why they're going to do it, and what you're going to pay. The same goes for freelancers, and it's something more freelancers should learn as well.

You handled that well. Hope everything goes smoothly for you throughout the project.
 
GTFO ASAP. I've had a long standing rule of never taking on clients and I never have, until about a year ago a family member begged me to help out their friend. Big mistake.

I've done work for said friend and made a few grand but they knew the deal: it's a privilege to have me work with you, so treat it like one. I leave them hanging for weeks and even entirely ignore emails/phone calls with no response, feelsgoodman.tiff

Point is: if you're dumb enough to have clients like this make sure they know the drill otherwise they're guaranteed to turn into nitpicking dipshits who think they own you, something it seems you already know.

All in all I regret taking them on as a client (like I thought I would) but at least now I know for 100% certain that having clients is a fucking nightmare waste of time, especially when they act like they're doing you a favor by paying you to work.
 
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