Why are coders so damn lazy?

my advice to people getting started with web projects..... but are not experts in online development, or haven't been online for a long time. buy a couple of hours of consulting from a developer, and brainstorm your idea, and make a basic plan, and let him give you feedback on how you think things should be done. this will be very worth it at the end, if you ever get there.

and the guys that chipped in, they're right on...
 


...

That said, no doubt your coder might be taking too much for your project, but most times problems like this are due to unclear specifications.
Sure the professional you go with should guide you through the definition of the features, but once you agree on a project that's what you'll get, everything else has to be paid separately.
....

Actually...

I will NOT walk you through the definition of features without pay.

There is a reason project managers who know how to translate customer to coder are rare and paid well.

For all coders:

Fire clients like this. Seriously not worth the hassle.
I'd rather spend an hour puking and shitting myself from some mutant stomach bug than listen to clients without clue and money.
(Clients without clue and lots of SPENDING money are welcome)

I just got rid of one today. Old colleague, so it took a lot of stepping around the issues and hemming and hawing until I got rid of this project.

For all non-technical customers:
You have NO IDEA what is "easy" and what is "hard" - I have never, ever seen a client reliably using these buckets.

Once you decide to hire a professional, shut the fuck up and listen. You hire that guy for a reason. The reason? You do NOT KNOW what this guy knows. You need his expertise, so get it, don't waste that chance.

::emp::
 
Actually...

I will NOT walk you through the definition of features without pay.

There is a reason project managers who know how to translate customer to coder are rare and paid well.
...

I think that for small websites that require a custom backend and administration panel (just to make an example of the project size I'm talking about ) it's good both for the developer and, obviously, the customer. You already know most of the shit the customer will call you for ( ... password reset function, order stuff by this or that, activate/deactivate stuff, filter by... etc ), so you'd better have this list of stuff on paper and have they pay you to build it, rather than receiving a call and being asked to build it anyway, for free.

The cost would be about 1 hour more, but it's well worth in my opinion.

For larger projects I have to agree with you.
 
To everyone calling me an asshole....

I'm mostly complaining about the lack of communication. I will contact him with a question and he will not get back to me until almost a week later. Is that acceptable? I don't think so. Phone is not an option either.

Also - great blog post emp. Anyone recommend any other good business/management resources?
 
I'm mostly complaining about the lack of communication. I will contact him with a question and he will not get back to me until almost a week later. Is that acceptable?

You have lots of patience :) I would be mad after 2 work days non response and would definitely dump him after 3 working days no response. When you hire someone state that things like that will not be acceptable. Some people are unbelievable irresponsible.
 
To everyone calling me an asshole....

I'm mostly complaining about the lack of communication. I will contact him with a question and he will not get back to me until almost a week later. Is that acceptable? I don't think so. Phone is not an option either.

Also - great blog post emp. Anyone recommend any other good business/management resources?

once again, not an issue with coders, but with people with bad business sense. Don't rag on an entire group of people because of one idiot, especially when that group of people is helping you build your business and without them you'd be stuck
 
you have the opposite problem to me. My coder is super strict and has a very good work edthic, he's a very religios guy and his email signature links are to do with the Quran and peace and eradicating poverty.. Is there a connection there?

He's filed a dispute about us on vworker for not being timely with responding to him.

We are very casualk and laid back and tend to take our time with things, he's repeatedly asked me to set up some IM platform so he can reach us quickly to get projects over and done with.

After the frist project was finished we sent him a new project, and he refused to work with us we paid him double the original project for around the same amount of work. He refused..

He's a damn good coder though, so we held out for a month sending him weekly reminders to accept our project, the clincher was we said we'd donate $10 to his charity. And we got an immediate response agreeing to work with us again.

LOL.

We've had to be more disciplined on projects from working with this guy, and I'm telling you his coding is damn fine.
 
you have the opposite problem to me. My coder is super strict and has a very good work edthic, he's a very religios guy and his email signature links are to do with the Quran and peace and eradicating poverty.. Is there a connection there?

He's filed a dispute about us on vworker for not being timely with responding to him.

We are very casualk and laid back and tend to take our time with things, he's repeatedly asked me to set up some IM platform so he can reach us quickly to get projects over and done with.

After the frist project was finished we sent him a new project, and he refused to work with us we paid him double the original project for around the same amount of work. He refused..

He's a damn good coder though, so we held out for a month sending him weekly reminders to accept our project, the clincher was we said we'd donate $10 to his charity. And we got an immediate response agreeing to work with us again.

LOL.

We've had to be more disciplined on projects from working with this guy, and I'm telling you his coding is damn fine.

Wow :eek: :thumbsup:
 
Why are you so lazy you can't learn to code?

Yeah, because everyone who outsources is too lazy to learn how to do something.

once again, not an issue with coders, but with people with bad business sense. Don't rag on an entire group of people because of one idiot, especially when that group of people is helping you build your business and without them you'd be stuck

How am I "ragging on" a group of people? You make it sound like I'm being racist. And I am just making an observation. Every_single_coder I have ever met was very lax and seemed unmotivated. I have friends who are coders and are the same way. Guess I should've changed my title to "Why are MOST coders so damn lazy" so people like you wouldn't get sand in your vag.

You need to chill out.
 
How am I "ragging on" a group of people?

The thread title is "why are coders so damn lazy?" you fuckwit. Coders are a group of people. calling someone "damn lazy" is in my opinion, and I might be wrong here because I am also a coder and clearly possess an intelligence level lower than yours, "ragging on someone". I'm guessing you're an "idea guy", aren't you?

You need to chill out.

You-Mad.jpg
 
The thread title is "why are coders so damn lazy?" you fuckwit. Coders are a group of people. calling someone "damn lazy" is in my opinion, and I might be wrong here because I am also a coder and clearly possess an intelligence level lower than yours, "ragging on someone". I'm guessing you're an "idea guy", aren't you?

I'm sorry I insulted your intelligence and occupation.

Thank you everyone--I take that back it seems not all coders are "damn lazy". Some great posts in this thread and I will try to be a better person to work for.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dchuk
you have the opposite problem to me. My coder is super strict and has a very good work edthic, he's a very religios guy and his email signature links are to do with the Quran and peace and eradicating poverty.. Is there a connection there?

He's filed a dispute about us on vworker for not being timely with responding to him.

We are very casualk and laid back and tend to take our time with things, he's repeatedly asked me to set up some IM platform so he can reach us quickly to get projects over and done with.

After the frist project was finished we sent him a new project, and he refused to work with us we paid him double the original project for around the same amount of work. He refused..

He's a damn good coder though, so we held out for a month sending him weekly reminders to accept our project, the clincher was we said we'd donate $10 to his charity. And we got an immediate response agreeing to work with us again.

LOL.

We've had to be more disciplined on projects from working with this guy, and I'm telling you his coding is damn fine.

you wanna share the dude? i'll send him a lot of work
 
There is a saying... "A good programmer is a lazy one". That is very true in my opinion. But there is a difference between being lazy and being irresponsible. Your coder seems to be more irresponsible than lazy.

Troubleshooting: you can only pick two out of three: good, fast, and cheap. Could this be your problem? From my experience this is usually the number 1 cause of all failed projects.

Clarity of project requirements is a second biggest factor. If your requirement is just a one line email, then it's 100% your fault. You need to be as clear as one can be.

Thirdly, setting deadlines usually solves deliverability issues.
 
To everyone calling me an asshole....

I'm mostly complaining about the lack of communication. I will contact him with a question and he will not get back to me until almost a week later. Is that acceptable? I don't think so. Phone is not an option either.

Also - great blog post emp. Anyone recommend any other good business/management resources?

Well, someone lit the fire, walked into it and is wondering about the heat..

Aside from that:
As per my blog article, that guy would be fired immediately. No more jobs from me. Cut your losses and take your business elsewhere.

You don't need any other business/project management resources. Don't scramble looking for the golden bullet, there is none.

Project management is hard and often boring work. If you - honestly - manage to do well what I wrote in my articles, you are golden.
(And better than me at times.)

::emp::
 
I think that for small websites that require a custom backend and administration panel (just to make an example of the project size I'm talking about ) it's good both for the developer and, obviously, the customer. You already know most of the shit the customer will call you for ( ... password reset function, order stuff by this or that, activate/deactivate stuff, filter by... etc ), so you'd better have this list of stuff on paper and have they pay you to build it, rather than receiving a call and being asked to build it anyway, for free.

The cost would be about 1 hour more, but it's well worth in my opinion.

For larger projects I have to agree with you.

Nope. I don't agree. I have developed and managed so many website projects and each and every one is asking for either
a) custom stuff "oh, that's gonna be so easy, right? A TALENTED coder would just need a few minutes, right?"
b) A unique take on standard stuff
c) Hundreds, if not thousands of little tweaks. "Make that red, but I would like the headings to not be bold in the editor, can't we put my poodle's picture in the admin area? He is soooo cute."

c is by far the worst, this customer will nickle and dime you to death.

Old project manager saying that holds true every time:

"Walking on water and developing according to specification are easy, as long as it's frozen."

Case in point:

Freelance project I just did. Restaurant website with backend.
People can order vouchers or reserve online. No biggie, all the standards where easy to do.
Customer is happy, but....

"The email adress in the confirmation email we get can't be clicked. The old website did this."

a) How would I know what the old site did? They did not fucking tell me.
b) Change email to HTML formatting, insert mailto link.

While b is not hard to do, this is time I did not factor in and could spend on other things.

Gladly, I am a project management god and had very few of these surprises.

These surprises will come by the hundreds if you do not have a good and thorough communication with your client or your coder before the project starts.

With this client, I did a 2 hour session beforehand, I wrote a loose spec detailing the site structure and feature as well as a cost estimate and got the OK in writing, a 1 hour session showing them the design options, the go ahead in writing for the design they chose, two half hour sessions with questions and answers while developing the site.

They still managed to come up with - legitimate - requests we had not covered.

I do factor in a bit of leeway for these, but do bad planning and it will be eaten up right quick.

::emp::
 
$scope_creep = "client ignored";

You having trouble with a "coder", "developer", "programmer", etc..? simple: money talks, bullshit walks. pay more money, problem solved.

Offer reasonable bounties with a 24/48 hour turnaround for set deliverables.

if (coder comes back from hybernation and collects bounty)
{
echo "you were being cheap";
}
else
{
echo "move along to next coder";
}

if (Too many move alongs?)
{
echo 'your "reasonable" bounties are probably still cheap';
}

it's simple really, be generous and blow them a little monetary K.I.$.$.: (Keep It $imple $tupid)
else { "go fuck yourself"; }
 
  • Like
Reactions: greyhat
Surely it is up to the coder to sit down with the client and get everything clear before the job is done, not the other way around. Non coders are not the professionals and don't know instinctively the amount of detail the coders need as they have never coded before. It may seem logical to the coder, but not to the hirer.

In my opinion it seems quite similar to a financial advisor sitting down with a client to do a fact-find (an initial review) and not asking all the pertinent questions such as what is your attitude to risk etc. and then when things go wrong he just says "well the client never told me".

Surely the coder is the professional and should know what can make a job go smoothly or not so should try to help to set the agenda.

Maybe I'm wrong and coding is a special type of profession, but I don't know I am not a coder.
 
Not all coders are lazy. Just look at the coders who work at google, facebook, etc