Why are the richest in the US getting another tax break?

A big problem, many large corporations have effective tax rates in single digits. Google 2.4% Rate Shows How $60 Billion Lost to Tax Loopholes - Bloomberg seems like there could be a loop hole closed there.

Now, these corporation make billions in profit and then of course there executives deserve those big bonuses. So they get their 10 million dollar bonus as a dividend and then only pay 15% capital gains tax.

Now, if Joe Blow bought some high paying dividend stock and pays 15% capital gains tax, to me, that is a different story than Warren Buffet paying himself dividends and paying 15%. Seems there could be a loop hole closed there.

Now in my mind, corporations should have tax brackets as well, if you are a small business owner, tax breaks could help out enormously and small businesses truly are job creators. Now if Exxon and Google, featured in the article above, moved their tax rate into at least double digits, that can be a significant difference in tax revenue and will not put a dent and their job creation....although they will claim it will and probably lay off thousands of people so it looks good to share holders, but thats another problem.

Now, the real problem, since our government already produces a tremendous amount of tax revenue is - STOP SPENDING OUR FUCKING TAX MONEY LIKE ITS MONOPOLY MONEY.

unfortunately nothing earth shattering will ever be done as long corporate lobbyist keep controlling our government, we really have a complicated problem.
 


Remember these people are working only 9 months out of the year.
lol. No. Most teachers do not work nine months a year. Some do. Most do not.

The woman on the list makes $80K per year for 9 months per year to teach elementary school.
80k?!?!? zomg that thieving little whore how dare she bank that 80 large for teaching the future minds of society.

I see in Maine the teachers average $40K per year with a 13 student to teacher ration - 13? I mean come on. How hard can that job be?
lol. As I said you know not of what you speak. How they get those numbers, what class sizes actually are - and salaries actually are - for 85% of teachers, and most of all how hard effective teaching in the 21st century truly is.

For what it's worth I was one of the best teachers in the last school I taught in. Effective pedagogy, communicative, practical, real with the kids. And to be that it takes 70 to 80 hour weeks in season and 10-20 hour weeks off season. And constant plotting and scheming. The shit is as real as you want it to be, just like the rest of life. And as InternetAuthor said there are a lot of teachers who are there for a paycheck. And that's just stupid for too many reasons to mention. But good teachers grind hard just like good marketers, good chefs, good surgeons and anyone else with talent and drive.

My point was that you do not need higher salaries to increase productive output from these teachers. You need accountability. I have many times had to take a group of low producing employees and turn them into a superstar team that produces. I have done this repeatedly. The key is leadership.

Fur sure. You have to understand that a lot of modern pedagogy is flat out social engineering that the majority of teachers swallow up and pass on, just like the majority of people swallow nightly news and daily talk radio. It's just more of the same. I'm not saying teachers should be excused for accepting crap curriculum and abandoning tried and true pedagogy. But there is so much more going on right now than just shitty teaching.

Parents fucking lawyer up when their precious snowflake is caught cheating. They call their kids out of school if son and dad were up late together trying to beat a video game and they only need a few more hours to do it the next day. School boards are fucking inept and insane and no one participates in local government to do anything about it. The Fortune 500 are programming children to disobey parents and teachers, that ignorance is cool, they live in their phones and don't climb trees or play flashlight tag. It's all kinds of fucked up man.

The problem is with poor management and poor allocation of resources. It is not in the pay nor in the substandard skill set. It is in the motivation and leadership of the teachers. It is also a factor of the Unions ensuring zero accountability.

Yup. Motivation and leadership. Schools have turned into microcosms of the current problems with government in general. People protecting their positions, not wanting to rock the boat, turning a blind eye to problems and the voting public too distracted and mind controlled to do anything to stop it. And remember that shit flows downhill. A lot of these problems come straight from DC.

Try teaching for a while or working in a profession that organizes and you'll appreciate unions for what they are. They have their problems, yes, and they are currently somewhat fucked up, yes. From first hand experience I can tell you that school boards and city councils can be more fucked up than any union will ever be.
 
The point is that you over estimate the capability of the masses. There is a small few that take AP -Chemistry

I highly disagree. The reason most American high school students are not ready to take AP Chemistry (or other advanced subject) is not because they are incapable, but rather because their K-8 education was complete shit.

For example, a child of average intelligence should be able to read and write by 4th grade with proper education. Even below average kids (unless completely mentally retarded) can learn to read, write, and do math by 6th or 7th grade.

Instead we have 11th and 12th graders who are illiterate (especially in inner city urban schools), but are apparently "smart" enough to orchestrate multiple robberies, traffick drugs, get away with murder, etc.


My point was that you do not need higher salaries to increase productive output from these teachers. You need accountability. I have many times had to take a group of low producing employees and turn them into a superstar team that produces. I have done this repeatedly. The key is leadership.

The problem is with poor management and poor allocation of resources. It is not in the pay nor in the substandard skill set. It is in the motivation and leadership of the teachers. It is also a factor of the Unions ensuring zero accountability.
I'm still convinced that the vast majority of K-12 teachers are inept and simply do not possess the necessary academic skills to teach what they teach.

Example: In 11th grade honors calculus class, our teacher just simply couldn't answer half the questions anyone had about homework. She would just copy the steps from her answer key onto the board. And then when someone asks a specific question about why a certain term integrated in a particular way, she would literally just say "I'm not sure?" and look confused.

I mean, we need to fire people like this. Keeping them "accountable" isn't going to make them any more smarter or better at academics (which is what school is all about).

Another example: In 6th grade science we did a "lab" where we calculated our weight on the moon. There was some episode of Magic Schoolbus that we watched and they said that if you weigh 60 pounds on Earth, you weigh 10 pounds on the moon.

So our teacher told us to step on the scale, and then subtract 50 pounds from our weight and write down the answer... HURR DURR... that's WRONG. The proper way is to take your weight and divide by 6 since it's a percentage, not a linear difference.

However, at the time none of the students (myself included) realized the difference. But thinking back now, it amazes me how stupid a 6th grade science teacher can be.

I don't care if they make General Petraeus the principal Steve Jobs the superintendent. Someone who doesn't know how to do math isn't going to suddenly know how to do it because they have a new leader.

A good leader can take a team of "monkeys" and teach them how to run a restaurant, construct buildings, or fix cars. But teaching is a different monster. You can't take a bunch of "monkeys" and "motivate" them to be good teachers. It's either a skill you have or you don't.
 
I love being American, so I pay my taxes. I think there should be tax breaks for the top X%.

I know in my case, it would allow me to hire more people, thus generating more income for the company and tax revenues. It's a cycle that works, and I think it should be reversed tax model. It's completely unfair for me to pay millions in taxes a year, where some fucking low-level person pays 4,000, where it ends up going to fund bottom dwelling programs.
 
Teachers are overpaid. This teachers are underpaid bullshit has to stop.

Romoland, a little rural ghetto - very very rural - in Southern California pays its elementary school teachers median of $60K per year - 90th percentile gets $89K a year - and that's for a 9 month year! You can buy a new house in Romoland for $150K - that's what, $800 a month? Less than rent. Yet the teachers make that much for 9 months work and a shitload of vacation, perfect benefits, and 100% job security?

WTF?

Add to this the fact they can get $250K of mortgage debt forgiven by the state every 5 years - that's an extra $50K per year benefit stacked on that $60K-$90K salary.

Teachers are overpaid.

Having known several teachers I can say (at least in the districts they teach in) they don't get 3 months vacation time. There's a lot of work that goes on during what many people view as the vacation time. My mother for example gets roughly 1 month off. Now you're saying hey that's a fucking month off!@#. That sounds great until you realize she doesn't get home until about 8pm every night and her commute is around 30 min. So when you factor in the 60+ hour work it kind of balances out with the scales favoring the public. Then you have to factor in the amount of money teachers put into the class room every year out of their pockets, because of lack of funding. There's really a lot that the public doesn't understand about our education system. Don't even get me started on the unions. There was one teacher at her school that had mouth wash taken away from her because they found out she was getting drunk off of it at school. For some reason because of the union they couldn't fire her.
 
I'm still convinced that the vast majority of K-12 teachers are inept and simply do not possess the necessary academic skills to teach what they teach.

Example: In 11th grade honors calculus class, our teacher just simply couldn't answer half the questions anyone had about homework. She would just copy the steps from her answer key onto the board. And then when someone asks a specific question about why a certain term integrated in a particular way, she would literally just say "I'm not sure?" and look confused.

I mean, we need to fire people like this. Keeping them "accountable" isn't going to make them any more smarter or better at academics (which is what school is all about).

Another example: In 6th grade science we did a "lab" where we calculated our weight on the moon. There was some episode of Magic Schoolbus that we watched and they said that if you weigh 60 pounds on Earth, you weigh 10 pounds on the moon.

So our teacher told us to step on the scale, and then subtract 50 pounds from our weight and write down the answer... HURR DURR... that's WRONG. The proper way is to take your weight and divide by 6 since it's a percentage, not a linear difference.

That's not even too bad. I was born and raised in NW Canada, but did 11th year of school in Texas, and 12th year in the UK. Texas school was just horrible.

  • We had a "video day" in Math class one day. The teacher put Donald Duck on. I'm 16 years old, watching Donald fucken Duck do elementary math. Worst part was, the rest of the kids thought it was awesome.
  • In Math we were learning SOH-CAH-TOA (basic trigonometry). I think I learned that back when I was 12 in Canada.
  • In Biology, we only did I think 3 experiments the entire year, the most difficult being a litmus paper test. We simply dipped litmus paper in different liquids to see if it was an acid or base. Nothing during the entire year had anything to do with the scientific method. In Canada, I would have been dissecting pig fetus' and sheep brains'.
  • The World History teacher had students convinced the US won the Vietnam war. His reasoning was the US destroyed Vietnam's land, whereas Vietnam didn't destroy any US soil.
  • In computer class we learned how to type using two hands, and fill in rectangles with colors using Corel Draw.
  • Teachers would ask me things like if Canadians get free electricity. They figured since we get free health care, maybe we get free electricity too.
  • You were not taught to be creative, or push the limits of your mind in any shape or form. All you really needed to do was remember a few dates, some names, and you'd pass. There was no thought process, and only memorization was required.
  • I think I did homework twice the entire year, and passed with excellent marks. Even had teachers phoning my parents, bitching because they never seen me bring books home from school. My mom ended up getting pissed at the teachers, and tell them to mind their own business, because I was still getting better marks than most kids in the class.
It was just simply bad. I think the most I got out of that entire year of education was in wood shop class, I built a nice solid oak bookshelf. 13 years later, still got that thing. Sturdy as fuck, and will probably last another 50 years.

That's not even the worst part though. The worst was how us students were treated like little 6 year old kids. I remember after school registration, getting this 47 page rulebook. Fuck me.

I was used to Canada, where if you needed to goto the washroom during class, you quietly stood up and left the room. If you asked the teacher, he/she would give you shit for interrupting things. In Texas, you had to ask the teacher, they would write you a "bathroom permission slip", then while in the hallway there's a decent chance one of the security guards would ask to see it, etc.

In Canada, once you hit 10th grade, for all intents and purposes, your education was up to you. The general attitude was, if you don't want to learn & graduate, then fuck off, and don't waste everyone else's time who do want to graduate. School was always open, and we'd come and go as we wanted. Miss too many classes, we get booted. In Texas, 7:30am it's lock down, and the doors don't open again until 2:30pm when school is out. Security and everything at the doors to ensure you don't leave.

Talk about a horrid learning environment, and it showed. Most people who were 17 had the maturity level of an average 12 year old. I remember people saying things like, "well, I don't have any money, and my mom didn't make my lunch today, so I guess I'll starve". Pathetic. No responsibility, no awareness of the world around, sheltered lives, etc. This was a rich subburb of Houston though, so I'm sure other parts of the US are totally different.

heh, then I moved to the UK, ended up Sixth Form College taking Math and Physics A level, and got my ass handed to me when it comes to education. Fuck me, those were difficult courses. :)
 
Most people who were 17 had the maturity level of an average 12 year old. I remember people saying things like, "well, I don't have any money, and my mom didn't make my lunch today, so I guess I'll starve". Pathetic. No responsibility, no awareness of the world around, sheltered lives, etc.

Isnt that essentially the perfect employee? Teach him to do x things, not question what you tell him/her, and to shut the fuck up and do as told.

Not that I employ anyone but if so, then I wouldnt want them eventually fucking of to setup shop against me simply because they are creative "non-institutionalized" independent thinkers.

Fuck that, id want plenty of sheeple working for me. And thats the way it goes.
 
both kiopa_matt and crackp0t are making my point. the teachers are crap and not accountable for results. Its like a microcosm of the long term effects of communism. If you are rewarded whether you perform or not, then over time, everyone stops trying, stops going the extra mile, and stops giving.


Teachers are like any employees, they fall without leaderrship. I am certain, given the ability to hold people accountable and reward results, I could turn any school around. I have done it repeatedly in the private sector and I am certain the same rules apply for the schools. Given the above - acconatbiility and rewards for performace.


As for you jackasses that went to the schools that were crap. You got the better deal. I was in a magnet program where we did not get credit for the extra difficult work. The rest of the school was taught exactly like Kiopa_matt and crackp0t said. The thing is that I ended with a moderate GPA and therefore killed my chances at a good college. Everyone that had decent parents got out of the magnet school, went to regular school, and got straight A's - Really, evcery kid that left the program got straight A's in regular classes - even regular school honors classes - they went off to Stanford etc. (my SAT's matched theirs and higher) So I was screwed because I was too dumb to get out of the program.


The only part was that I breezed through college effortlessly at the top of my class - too bad it was a crappy State school because of the reason mentioned above. Of course I would have had a more difficult time in the higher level colleges - but whatever.


My magnet program was taught by regular school district teachers. No special educations behind them.


As for crakp0ts description of a workweek - that is a workweek for millions of Americans that make $40K-$60K a year. Nothing unique about it except they are accountable for results and the teachers are not.
 
As for you jackasses that went to the schools that were crap. You got the better deal. I was in a magnet program where we did not get credit for the extra difficult work. The rest of the school was taught exactly like Kiopa_matt and crackp0t said. The thing is that I ended with a moderate GPA and therefore killed my chances at a good college. Everyone that had decent parents got out of the magnet school, went to regular school, and got straight A's - Really, evcery kid that left the program got straight A's in regular classes - even regular school honors classes - they went off to Stanford etc. (my SAT's matched theirs and higher) So I was screwed because I was too dumb to get out of the program.

Yeah, but your magnet school probably had a significantly larger percentage of students who went to a top 20 school than any urban public NYC or Philadelphia school. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

That being said, if you went to MIT, Princeton, or Stanford (as a non-athlete) college academics would have been really tough because pretty much everyone there was a top student in high school and grades are curved relative to your peers. If you graduated summa cum laude from your state school, it really shouldn't hurt your career anyways (unless you happen to want to work for particular elitist firms that hire exclusively from Tier 1 schools--but I don't really envy the people who work at places like that).
 
Yeah, but your magnet school probably had a significantly larger percentage of students who went to a top 20 school than any urban public NYC or Philadelphia school. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

That being said, if you went to MIT, Princeton, or Stanford (as a non-athlete) college academics would have been really tough because pretty much everyone there was a top student in high school and grades are curved relative to your peers. If you got summa cum laude from your state school, it really shouldn't hurt your career anyways (unless you happen to want to work for particular elitist firms like the Boston Consulting Group).


My magnet program had top students - all of them should have gone to a top 20 school. But instead many had to make other arrangements as their grades were hurt by the program.

Back to the topic. Teachers are overpaid given their output.

I would gladly pay a teacher $100K+ a year, if they produced students that made them worthy of that salary.

Oh the real topic, the rich and taxes. Federal taxes alone are not too bad these days (compared to the 1970's and early 1980's) even though they are a primary focus of many conversations. It is the unseen tax of over-regulation and all of the state and local taxes that kill everyone.

The rich will never pay taxes, no matter how the system is set up. Crap even if you make $200k a year it is not too difficult to structure your life to pay very little to no taxes. It is too easy to legally get around them.
 
Personally, I hate to see all teachers lumped together in one category - especially since schools vary wildly by location. But, with that being said, I'll be honest. Teaching has a low threshold for entry and there are a lot of dumb (by conventional standards) or burnt out teachers out there. A quick caveat - I'm not talking about elementary teachers here. Any teacher who can take a class of 25 5-year-olds and teach them to sit still, follow directions, read and write in a year is more skilled in classroom management and loving than I could ever hope to be - this would be a totally different sort of intelligence than we're talking about here.

I worked for about seven years in a junior high. I worked with teachers who didn't speak correctly, who didn't know how to write in complete sentences (who were also certified English teachers) and math teachers who would come to me to help them understand how to teach 6th grade math. I was frankly quite disgusted by the whole system.

I was teaching in a blue collar district on the "working side" of Houston. A lot of the teachers were home grown and the school district was much more concerned about beating the rival football team one district over than anything else. I was a bad fit and was often told I was too "out of the box" or "intense" for [district.]

I agreed from about one week in and, but I stayed around because I am great at connecting with reluctant learners and did well with the "tough" kids that other teachers didn't handle well. They preferred to complain about the kids, yell at them and call them stupid. One told them they were all well suited for McDonalds - I'm sure that was very inspiring.

That's not to mention I knew what the hell I was doing because I was constantly teaching myself by reading about the science of education and psychology and trying new things to beat entropy. In a school of about forty teachers, there were quite frankly three of us who were "smart" in the sense that you are describing, and all three of us choose to teach, we didn't get there by default.

The teachers who were there by default (no other jobs, wanted summers off, wanted to coach, etc.) - they sucked, although some were great building relationships with the kids, but couldn't teach. They were often rude, ignorant and since most of my student population was Hispanic and didn't know how to work the system they got away with all sorts of bullshit that should have never occurred in a professional environment, least of all a school.

Finally, when I was pulled out of science to move back into English to cover for a teacher who had the right political connections in the district, but still managed to get forcibly arrested for a DUI in the middle of the small town, I was done.

As much as I loved those kids, I couldn't put up with that district any more and I moved to the district where I live and where I grew up. It's like night and day. In my current district, where I'm teaching high school - which is a much better fit for me than Junior High - the teachers don't have education degrees. They have math, science, English, whatever degrees and had to go back to get certified (like me!). Most of them chose to come and teach for altruistic reasons and because it's more of a calling than a job for most of us, we work our asses off.

I still work with the tough kids - we "protect the dropout rate" for the district of five 5A high schools. My school has the kids who would have dropped out, and many of them have for a time and then realized that they needed help to finish and came to us. We have the homeless kids, the pregnant kids, the kids suffering at home, the ones who don't fit in, the bullies, the bullied, etc. Roughly 80 percent of my school has ADHD and about a quarter are oppositional-defiant, bi-polar or schizophrenic. This is in a very affluent school district, mind you, where parents run the show.

And that makes all the difference. I'm proud to be one of the parents who stays very, very involved in my kid's school experience. Virtually every parent in my neighborhood is active in the schools, and the neighborhoods that surround us are the same way. If a teacher screws up, we're on her like white on rice. If a principal doesn't take care of business, there's a big stink at the school board meetings and it gets taken care of.

As both a teacher and a parent in the district I have a unique perspective. Many of our parents are very successful NASA scientists and engineers, entrepreneurs, oil and gas executives and others who you'd imagine fit into that category. These parents are proud of our school district and respect the teachers, but not because we have a great football team. In fact most of the parents have no idea how our football, lacrosse, soccer, swim, diving, baseball, etc. teams are doing. They are proud because in the schools were parents are active, the kids get an outstanding education.

The parents expect a huge amount from the schools, and in turn the teachers expect a huge amount from the parents and students. In both cases, we deliver. If a teacher is under performing - he or she is out, or will be mentored and watched closely until he or she develops into the sort of teacher this district wants. If they don't advance, they are encouraged to leave, and then helped out the door.

I was shocked the first time I saw a teacher fired - it had never happened before in my teaching experience, and I'll be honest - I was thrilled. I've always worked hard and do a great job because I know I can and because I want to. After eight years, I was finally working with a group where that was the norm rather than the exception. I hate working with slackers and crappy teachers.

Teachers have a special obligation, and having worked in industry with a degree in business and engineering, it's frankly exhausting to teach well. But at any given moment those good teachers can tell you what they are doing, why they are doing it and satisfy parents around here with the level of expertise expected. If not, there are consequences - FINALLY.

There are several of us in my high school who are excited to see some of these education bills passed. Bring it on! The crappy teachers are bringing us all down. I've never cared about the money, but I'd be thrilled to be paid more than the teacher next door because, quite frankly, I do a better job than the teacher next door - and the one next to her. I'm in Texas, which is a right-to-work state, so the union nonsense doesn't mean anything to me - we have crappy benefits and after almost 10 years teaching with a masters degree, I have yet to earn as much as I was making when I walked out of Power trading/accounting a decade ago. I pay for my own retirement, too.

I'm with everyone who says we need massive educational reform. I'd love to see a system that is more streamlined and challenging for students, perhaps with a tiered secondary rather than the "every child is ready for college" nonsense that made us do away with technology and skilled programs. They are coming back, finally, by the way.

It will be interesting to watch now that the Baby Boomers are finally getting out of the way - they seem to put up the most resistance to anything that makes sense from a fair business/compensation equation.

In the meantime, however, please qualify your statements - MANY teachers are overpaid for their workload and skill level - not ALL. SOME teachers aren't idiots and many have chosen to teach for altruistic reasons and are fortunate to be able to afford to do so. I make more writing 12-15 hours per week than I do teaching. How's that for teacher salaries v. the business world?

Others have worked one career to the point that they are comfortable with savings and can take a huge step down the career ladder. Working for less doesn't make us stupid - it makes us realistic about the obstacles in the industry we want to pursue. For the record, those of us who aren't necessarily the norm are resigned to being lumped in with the masses and getting less respect than we probably deserve, but again - it comes with the career. If you wanted to pay me more about boot out the crap teachers, however, I'm all for it.

In the meantime, my advice would be to research the hell out of your local school districts and ignore the results of the standardized tests (outside of AP and SAT scores). Good districts are the ones that are the product of the educators and community. They often have higher taxes and local bond as well, although this isn't always the case.
 
If we ended all entitlement programs I'd have no problem with paying teachers much better, seriously. Private schools still end up better so often though.

By "all entitlement programs" do you mean just stuff like Medicare and unemployment compensation, or do you also mean stuff like social security? (For the record, I think all of them need to be "fixed" or abolished.)

I support the idea of programs like the PeaceCorps and AmeriCorps because it gets unemployed younger people off their asses and doing "useful" stuff. By "useful" I mean better than nothing. However, I still don't know how we should handle the unemployed/lazy/homeless/older people who just don't give a fuck about anything.

My magnet program had top students - all of them should have gone to a top 20 school. But instead many had to make other arrangements as their grades were hurt by the program.

Back to the topic. Teachers are overpaid given their output.

I would gladly pay a teacher $100K+ a year, if they produced students that made them worthy of that salary.

Oh the real topic, the rich and taxes. Federal taxes alone are not too bad these days (compared to the 1970's and early 1980's) even though they are a primary focus of many conversations. It is the unseen tax of over-regulation and all of the state and local taxes that kill everyone.

The rich will never pay taxes, no matter how the system is set up. Crap even if you make $200k a year it is not too difficult to structure your life to pay very little to no taxes. It is too easy to legally get around them.

It really depends on how you're making the $200k. If you have an employer that pays you a $200k salary, then good luck in trying to dodge taxes because it's basically impossible.

It's probably more feasible if you're self-employed, but even so it takes a lot of planning and thought, and if you get audited you might not get away with it.

But mostly, I think it's the top level corporate execs of large companies who manipulate how they get paid to avoid taxes. Like Steve Jobs or Larry Page with their $1 salary pretending like they are being modest. Come on, give me a fucking break. I can't believe so many sheeple are so naive and buy into that BS. Clearly it's their mechanism to dodge the income tax.

Anyhow, I think it's really stupid and inconsistent that the Federal government decides the income tax brackets across the country, while sales, property, and other regulatory taxes are all decided at the state level.
 
Back to the topic. Teachers are overpaid given their output.

I would gladly pay a teacher $100K+ a year, if they produced students that made them worthy of that salary.

The primary difference between education and its outputs and business and outputs is that in business you can generally control your starting point. If you're trying to bring together an excellent team of employees - you hire ones who are willing or smart enough to get there.

If you want to make great widgits, you throw out the pieces that are broken before you even get started in the manufacturing process.

In education, you're given every single student regardless of how they were raised, how willing they are and how broken they are. Naturally, since the readiness of students varies wildly, you can expect outputs in education to vary as well.
 
You missed the point. You claimed that $30k = comfortable living. I said that you were wrong. Now you're all butthurt and think that I make $30k.

1. Newsflash - I make way more than $30k, so I don't have to move.

2. Even if I only make $30k, did I get to choose where the fuck I was born? Why don't you go to a hospital in Manhattan and tell all the newborn babies there how stupid they are for "deciding" to live in a place where things cost more.

3. Moving a family, a house full of furniture and belongings, and a vehicle halfway across the country easily costs $10k+ so you're saying it's a good idea to spend over 1/3 of your annual income to move? Most people that earn in the $30k range in the metropolitan area can barely pay their rent and bills. How are they suddenly supposed to cough up 10 G's to move?

Funny that you talk about logic when your own conclusions don't even follow logic.

$10k+ to move? Are you insane? The $10k figure is right out of your ass.

If someone is making $30k/year, I can guarantee you it won't cost anywhere near $10k to move to half way across the country. You get a big uhaul, you pack everything yourself, and you move. $1k for the rental, plus gas. That's it.
 
Personally, I hate to see all teachers lumped together in one category - especially since schools vary wildly by location. But, with that being said, I'll be honest. Teaching has a low threshold for entry and there are a lot of dumb (by conventional standards) or burnt out teachers out there.

First off, I never said ALL teachers were dumb/unqualified. Just that the majority of mine (I'm from a middle class suburban town), my sister's (a different district but similar area), and a lot of my friends' teachers were.

For instance, I don't know you, but your writing seems a lot more coherent and grammatically correct than most of my K-12 teachers' writing. That's probably a good start. But there are teachers who don't know the difference between "you're" and "your", don't know the difference between "ratios" and "odds", or can't tell you how many kilometers are in a mile.

Excuse me, but HOW THE FUCK ARE THESE PEOPLE BEING HIRED IN THE FIRST PLACE??? You probably know better than me, so please enlighten me.

I was shocked the first time I saw a teacher fired - it had never happened before in my teaching experience, and I'll be honest - I was thrilled.
Just out of curiosity, under what type of ground was this teacher fired? Because literally the only times I've heard of teachers getting fired are:

A. Have sex with a minor.
B. Have a fight with an administrator.

In my K-12 years and my sister's (she went to a different school), I have never heard of a teacher be fired for sub-par job performance.

Teachers have a special obligation, and having worked in industry with a degree in business and engineering, it's frankly exhausting to teach well. But at any given moment those good teachers can tell you what they are doing, why they are doing it and satisfy parents around here with the level of expertise expected. If not, there are consequences - FINALLY.
I know REIMktg is a a big advocate for replacing school administration (i.e. principals, superintendents, board members, etc.) with better leaders, but I think the problem with that is to equate teachers to factory or retail workers. Like I said earlier, it doesn't matter if you have presidents, CEOs, or generals leading the teachers. The problem is that the teachers themselves need to be the leaders.

That's where the education system is failing. At the Honda factory, you need to keep the workers accountable to produce X number of vehicles per month with an XX% rate that passes inspections. They can moan and grumble all they want, but in the end it doesn't matter as long as they finish their quotas. Same goes for a software firm. As long as the product is complete, all requirements are met, tested for bugs, and released by the deadline then it doesn't matter what else the workers complain or gossip about.

But with teachers, if you have them bitching and hating on life, then it rubs off on the students. And you have shitty students too. You can get a drill sergeant to bark orders at the teachers, but that won't make them good leaders. That's where I mainly disagree with REIMktg. It's like the saying, "You can't teach an old dog new tricks," and in this case the teachers I'm referring to are the old dogs. The only solution is to replace them with better and more qualified people.
 
$10k+ to move? Are you insane? The $10k figure is right out of your ass.

If someone is making $30k/year, I can guarantee you it won't cost anywhere near $10k to move to half way across the country. You get a big uhaul, you pack everything yourself, and you move. $1k for the rental, plus gas. That's it.

I just moved across 4 states and it cost me $4,500. I don't have a wife or kids. I reckon if I did, then the move would have easily cost $10k. I'm not pulling numbers out of my ass.

If you're strong enough to load a refrigerator, 2 couches, a queen size bed, a washer and a dryer, TV/stand, solid oak bookshelves and dresser drawers, etc. into a U-Haul by yourself then good for you. But most people can't. I hired 3 people to help me load and it took over 6 hours (I had already packed all my clothes, books, and smaller items into a dozens of boxes). Moving labor costs a lot.

Also, I had to hire someone to drive the truck. Was I supposed to just abandon my car?
 
I just moved across 4 states and it cost me $4,500. I don't have a wife or kids.

I'm not pulling numbers out of my ass.

Like I said, a very large uhaul is about 1k. That and gas is all you need.
And even if you need 2 of the largest uhaul trucks, that's still just $2k.

If you paid $4,500 you either paid for things that you wanted, but weren't necessary, such as movers to load and unload for you. Or you got ripped off. One of the two.
 
Like I said, a very large uhaul is about 1k. That and gas is all you need.
And even if you need 2 of the largest uhaul trucks, that's still just $2k.

If you paid $4,500 you either paid for things that you wanted, but weren't necessary, such as movers to load and unload for you. Or you got ripped off. One of the two.

Again, you only think about yourself. I added details to my original post so maybe you can understand now. (Oh yeah, there was other furniture too that I didn't specifically mention like office desk, dining table, piano, etc.)
 
Again, you only think about yourself. I added details to my original post so maybe you can understand now.

I'll go read the details you added....but I'm not thinking about myself.
I'm thinking about the "average" family on $30k year that is making a move. Obviously they are going to do it as cost effectively as possible. One or two uHaul trucks is all they need. Nothing more.

edit: Just read your added details, and I still don't understand how you could estimate anywhere around $10k for a move. For a family on $30k/year that's ridiculous, and they aren't going to spend anywhere near that amount. I stick to my original figures of $1k and gas, possibly up to $2k if they need 2 trucks.
 
At Rebecca:

If education were conducted in a completely free market, where parents were the customers and teachers were the producers, I'd pay a healthy premium to send my kids to you.

EDIT: Given your background, you might enjoy this piece by John Gatto.


<insert> arguments about how customers are the only ones who can subjectively value a good or service, blah, blah, blah. </insert>
 
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