To Libertarians: a proposition

Pseudo Nym

Pedicabo ego vos et irrum
Mar 14, 2008
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A lot of you talk about how wasteful and inefficient government programs are and the injustice of taxation in general. You also point to the free market as being able to provide many of the same services as the government does, potentially both better and at less cost. So why not put your money where your mouth is?

Something that often comes up in debates between Libertarians and more left-leaning people is the question of how to deal with the poor and disabled; the answer usually given by Libertarians is that these services could be provided by charity. A lot of you are entrepreneurial. So how about finding some like-minded people and setting up a non-profit organization that targets a specific social problem that is currently addressed by government programs?

As an example, you could work to develop a program to help poor or homeless people in a specific city get housing, food, training, education, networking, employment or whatever else they need with the goal of getting them off any government assistance. Be creative.

A lot of the skills used in IM could come into play here: you could do case studies, split test different approaches, use marketing methods to solicit donations, etc. You could set up websites tracking the success of various methods. Make it open source. Spread the idea. Get people setting up non-profits in other cities and trying different things to compare results. Optimize.

You could donate money to such an organization yourself and write it off your taxes. Since it should be far more cost-effective than the government programs, wouldn't this be a much better use of your money? Doesn't this make sense?

You want government to shrink, right? The only way you're going to be able to do that is to get people to be less dependent on it. Starve the beast. Make it obsolete. Sitting around bitching about taxes and all the lazy moochers isn't going to get anything done. Take matters into your own hands. Take action.

Change like this isn't going to happen overnight. But if no one works at changing things, it'll never happen. You can't expect to vote for a guy and magically the problem is going to get solved. This is a lot bigger than a Ron Paul or any one person can change. It's going to take people who are willing to work, to put real effort in, to change things.

"Be the change you want to see in the world." - Mahatma Gandhi

Think about it.
 


I do like the idea of encouraging people to setup their own non-profits. Though, if I had to guess, people here are too busy making money to setup non-profit organizations for causes that already exist.
 
The point is to replace government programs with voluntary charity. Obviously, whatever charity exists isn't accomplishing that. If people want real change they're going to have to work for it. Volunteering at a soup kitchen or sending a few bucks to the local homeless shelter is nice, but isn't going to accomplish what they want. You need an aggressive, results-driven approach.

If people spent half as much time actually working on and promoting something like this as they do complaining about things and arguing philosophical minutia from their comfy armchairs, something might actually get accomplished. Organization, optimization, promotion.

What if we saw "$cityname Help The Homeless Money Bomb" threads in here like we see Ron Paul money bomb threads? That would be something.
 
Libertarians seem to have a skewed sense of how the world works, especially when it comes to human nature. They want to be completely left alone, up to their own devices. Yet, whether or not they admit it, they want the safety, security, and social net that comes with a larger government.

After all, that safety net is what greatly helps create the atmosphere they can thrive in, and become filthy rich in. They'll just never admit it.
 
I'm genuinely more interested in finding solutions than in bashing anyone or being right. I see a lot of talk in here about what's wrong but hardly any proposals about what to actually do about it.

The beauty of this idea is that, if successful:
- it proves at least one aspect of the Libertarian model works in practice
- it's a distributed, grassroots approach, therefore much less susceptible to corruption
- it works by directly transferring power and influence from the state, and there's practically nothing the state can do about it
- it shifts public support away from the state as fewer people are directly dependent on it

It's really win-win. I can't see why Libertarians would not be in favor of something like this. Of course, people actually have to step up and take the initiative, but, well, shit's not gonna get done by itself.

If anyone has any other ideas for practical approaches to directly reducing demand for the state, I'm all ears.
 
There are thousands of charities that help poor and homeless. Helping someone doesn't make them more independent though. It makes them more reliant, it conditions them to think they need help to get by.
 
I'm genuinely more interested in finding solutions than in bashing anyone or being right. I see a lot of talk in here about what's wrong but hardly any proposals about what to actually do about it.

Sorry, and I guess I should have worded myself better. I was insinuating that libertarians have no desire to help the world or their fellow human. Instead, they simply want everyone to leave them alone, and get the fuck out of their way. In return, whatever everyone else does is up to them, and they don't give a shit.

So asking them to start a non-profit to help is somewhat a contradiction of their core beliefs.
 
Sorry, and I guess I should have worded myself better. I was insinuating that libertarians have no desire to help the world or their fellow human. Instead, they simply want everyone to leave them alone, and get the fuck out of their way. In return, whatever everyone else does is up to them, and they don't give a shit.

So asking them to start a non-profit to help is somewhat a contradiction of their core beliefs.

I would somewhat agree with you on many (there are always exceptions) libertarians. It tends to be that the people earning lots of money (in the US) tend towards the right because that means they get to keep it. One guy I was arguing with on this forum said that because he was taxed so much he didn't donate a single cent from his $500,000 profits. That's kinda sickening. He could argue that he would have given all that he was taxed to charity but lets be honest, no he wouldn't.
 
I'm a libertarian.
I do some charity work, but the truth is providing employment is far more important than donating to some little cause.

If you want the wealthy people around to provide maximum benefit to society encourage them to hire more people and maybe mentor a few promising youth.
 
You could donate money to such an organization yourself and write it off your taxes. Since it should be far more cost-effective than the government programs, wouldn't this be a much better use of your money? Doesn't this make sense?

I have thought about what you're talking about and plan on doing something non-profit within the next few years, but never considered the tax benefits before. This actually makes a lot of sense, I wonder just how much of a tax benefit it would have.

There are thousands of charities that help poor and homeless. Helping someone doesn't make them more independent though. It makes them more reliant, it conditions them to think they need help to get by.

While mostly true, that's a generalization.

One example that comes to mind is the Teach A Man to Fish organization that helps a few self-sufficient non-profit schools in South America and other places:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xbVfiwngcs"]The Self-Sufficient School Comes to Bolivia! - YouTube[/ame]

I see where the OP is coming from. We're all entrepreneurs here and have the skills to tackle social problems in more effective, non-traditional ways. I have thought about this a lot.
 
but the truth is providing employment is far more important than donating to some little cause.

Churches do charity well, very well, that's the free market working. Imagine how much responsibility they would take on, and how much good they'd do, if the gov't got out of the way?

Original idea stolen from a boston legal episode: If America takes care of everything (welfare state, policeman of the world, ...) why would anyone else make it their life's work to fix the problems? The real issue is not that America tries to do good, it's thatwe're not consistent. Some genocides are ignored while others are intervened upon.

If they say "yes, we take care of everything" or "no, we take care of nothing" then at least we the people can know how to best help the world. Each stance has consequences, but doing good when it accommodates you politically isn't helpful at all, in fact is sends the wrong signal.

And that's EXACTLY where we are today.

To answer your question: fuck no I'm not opening a charity ... I do have big plans to provide free internet for my city in the future. Call that charity if you want, I just look at it as doing good. I give fishing lessons, I don't make fish soup.
 
I don't think true libertarianism (capitalism) is about charity. It is not charity that makes people better. It is struggling. It is the ability to fail. The ability to suffer. Charity is basically a bailout that enables bad behavior. There are countless examples in the past where simply having a free market without any bullshit social programs raised the standard of living of poor people. Simply following the principles of a free market system has the side effect of inherently moving people from poor to middle class. It's not about charity, at least charity in the sense of giving. Teaching someone to fish is much more valuable than giving them a fish. We need less government and a debt free money system. If you want to set up a charity I think that's perfectly cool, but when we have a dollar that is being destroyed through inflation, government intervention that won't allow us to practice entrepreneurship and taxes that go straight to interest on our debt it creates a handicap that makes almost anything impossible.
 
OP: Did what you suggested about 10 years ago. Started and developed a computer training program for at risk youth in one of the major cities in the United States. Taught these kids basic computer skills, interview skills and then helped getting them jobs with major corporations doing tech support. This got them on their way.

We weeded out the folks who weren't really interested pretty quickly (they quit showing up) and the program received several awards for making a difference.

Community stepped up by donating computer equipment etc. and I donated my time and convinced co-workers etc. to come in teach individual lessons for stuff I wasn't qualified for. We did this program at a local library, in the worst part of town due to proximity, plus I didn't have the funds to rent a permanent facility. Program grew and kids got jobs.

Then politics came into play. I was approached through a lawyer proxy by one of the big dogs in local politics, advising me that I was going to start the same program exclusively for African American business owners. Teaching them how to setup their own networks, go in and do hands on demonstrations and teach them how to use quickbooks.

Told them I wasn't interested cause that wasn't my intended target audience. Remember, I did all of this for free and I wasn't interested in doing free consulting!

Their statement was: "You don't understand, you don't have a choice in this. Either you do this, or we will shut this program down and come after you". Long story short: We were ejected from the library without cause and they then started harassing me personally.

Afterwards they asked for another meeting, offering to return the library space and asked if I was ready to play ball. Told them to go fuck themselves and I'm shutting all of this down. All kinds of veiled threats were made but due to a close personal friend also in the African American community - the dogs were finally called off.

I spent two years of my life in the trenches, was lucky enough to steer a few kids on their way and just recently was contacted by one of my former students. He got a job doing tech support and then ended up joining the Navy serving on an Aircraft Carrier. Got all kinds of citations and awards and is now in the computer industry. Told me that this program made a difference in his life and kind of caught me up on what some of the other kids did. Most of the former inner city kids are living elsewhere and are doing okay now... Hopefully I had a 'small' part in that.

Now, I'm staying away from charity work and am very selective on who gets my cash. Instead I mentor college students on how to start their own business, life etc. which is quite rewarding in itself....

Whenever you get into charity works it becomes political very quickly. Huge turf wars because there is money and power associated with it. Both of which people crave....
 
...

OP: Did what you suggested about 10 years ago. Started and developed a computer training program for at risk youth in one of the major cities in the United States. Taught these kids basic computer skills, interview skills and then helped getting them jobs with major corporations doing tech support. This got them on their way.

We weeded out the folks who weren't really interested pretty quickly (they quit showing up) and the program received several awards for making a difference.

Community stepped up by donating computer equipment etc. and I donated my time and convinced co-workers etc. to come in teach individual lessons for stuff I wasn't qualified for. We did this program at a local library, in the worst part of town due to proximity, plus I didn't have the funds to rent a permanent facility. Program grew and kids got jobs.

Then politics came into play. I was approached through a lawyer proxy by one of the big dogs in local politics, advising me that I was going to start the same program exclusively for African American business owners. Teaching them how to setup their own networks, go in and do hands on demonstrations and teach them how to use quickbooks.

Told them I wasn't interested cause that wasn't my intended target audience. Remember, I did all of this for free and I wasn't interested in doing free consulting!

Their statement was: "You don't understand, you don't have a choice in this. Either you do this, or we will shut this program down and come after you". Long story short: We were ejected from the library without cause and they then started harassing me personally.

Afterwards they asked for another meeting, offering to return the library space and asked if I was ready to play ball. Told them to go fuck themselves and I'm shutting all of this down. All kinds of veiled threats were made but due to a close personal friend also in the African American community - the dogs were finally called off.

I spent two years of my life in the trenches, was lucky enough to steer a few kids on their way and just recently was contacted by one of my former students. He got a job doing tech support and then ended up joining the Navy serving on an Aircraft Carrier. Got all kinds of citations and awards and is now in the computer industry. Told me that this program made a difference in his life and kind of caught me up on what some of the other kids did. Most of the former inner city kids are living elsewhere and are doing okay now... Hopefully I had a 'small' part in that.

Now, I'm staying away from charity work and am very selective on who gets my cash. Instead I mentor college students on how to start their own business, life etc. which is quite rewarding in itself....

Whenever you get into charity works it becomes political very quickly. Huge turf wars because there is money and power associated with it. Both of which people crave....

Great story with a fucked up ending. The only people I know running successful charities are very good at playing politics.
 
That's a very interesting story, and the payoff of helping that man get started in the world must make you feel great. When I'm older I'd love to do something like that.

Such nonsense about having into devolve into racism though. Thanks for sharing.

OP: Did what you suggested about 10 years ago. Started and developed a computer training program for at risk youth in one of the major cities in the United States. Taught these kids basic computer skills, interview skills and then helped getting them jobs with major corporations doing tech support. This got them on their way.

We weeded out the folks who weren't really interested pretty quickly (they quit showing up) and the program received several awards for making a difference.

Community stepped up by donating computer equipment etc. and I donated my time and convinced co-workers etc. to come in teach individual lessons for stuff I wasn't qualified for. We did this program at a local library, in the worst part of town due to proximity, plus I didn't have the funds to rent a permanent facility. Program grew and kids got jobs.

Then politics came into play. I was approached through a lawyer proxy by one of the big dogs in local politics, advising me that I was going to start the same program exclusively for African American business owners. Teaching them how to setup their own networks, go in and do hands on demonstrations and teach them how to use quickbooks.

Told them I wasn't interested cause that wasn't my intended target audience. Remember, I did all of this for free and I wasn't interested in doing free consulting!

Their statement was: "You don't understand, you don't have a choice in this. Either you do this, or we will shut this program down and come after you". Long story short: We were ejected from the library without cause and they then started harassing me personally.

Afterwards they asked for another meeting, offering to return the library space and asked if I was ready to play ball. Told them to go fuck themselves and I'm shutting all of this down. All kinds of veiled threats were made but due to a close personal friend also in the African American community - the dogs were finally called off.

I spent two years of my life in the trenches, was lucky enough to steer a few kids on their way and just recently was contacted by one of my former students. He got a job doing tech support and then ended up joining the Navy serving on an Aircraft Carrier. Got all kinds of citations and awards and is now in the computer industry. Told me that this program made a difference in his life and kind of caught me up on what some of the other kids did. Most of the former inner city kids are living elsewhere and are doing okay now... Hopefully I had a 'small' part in that.

Now, I'm staying away from charity work and am very selective on who gets my cash. Instead I mentor college students on how to start their own business, life etc. which is quite rewarding in itself....

Whenever you get into charity works it becomes political very quickly. Huge turf wars because there is money and power associated with it. Both of which people crave....
 
A lot of you talk about how wasteful and inefficient government programs are and the injustice of taxation in general.
Taxation is not unjust, it is immoral. Justice and morality are two different concepts.

You also point to the free market as being able to provide many of the same services as the government does, potentially both better and at less cost.
All of the services the government does.

The only thing government does is provide service at the barrel of a gun. That's important to understand.

And it is also important to sort out the softcore from the hardcore libertarians. If people can't understand the economic irrationality of socializing market activities, and if they won't take a moral position on violence, then they are soft-core libertarians at best, and really not much different from your average Republican on taxes and Democrat on war.

Libertarianism is fundamentally a radical philosophy of non-aggression and voluntary interaction. It's not a system of compromises on specific policy positions.

Something that often comes up in debates between Libertarians and more left-leaning people is the question of how to deal with the poor and disabled; the answer usually given by Libertarians is that these services could be provided by charity. A lot of you are entrepreneurial. So how about finding some like-minded people and setting up a non-profit organization that targets a specific social problem that is currently addressed by government programs?
What makes you think Libertarians don't already do this? Do you have some statistic or something that proves it?

Libertarians are thinking, feeling human beings just like others. The difference is that they have a specific rational (economic) and moral grounding for their social policy positions.

As mentioned by others, the greatest act of compassion you can do is to trade with others. To create value for both them and yourself. A win-win social relationship. This improves the lots of both parties.

A lot of the skills used in IM could come into play here: you could do case studies, split test different approaches, use marketing methods to solicit donations, etc. You could set up websites tracking the success of various methods. Make it open source. Spread the idea. Get people setting up non-profits in other cities and trying different things to compare results. Optimize.
Charity is for profit because any concept of profit is psychological. Some people measure their psychological profit in dollars, some in emotion. That's a basic insight of free market economics.

The reason why charities are not easy to sustain or make "profitable" in the long run, is that you're exchanging real goods and time, for an emotional benefit, and while this works on the consumer level, there is no capital market for good feelings, and so complex organizations struggle to scale up. Without a market for capital goods, it is hard to determine prices, and without prices it is impossible to calculate rationally.

I have always provided work for and exchanged with others. That makes people's lives better and leaves me in a position to continue to do more in the future. My productivity and profitability benefits humanity, REGARDLESS of how I utilize the profits gained.

Just feeding people charity is a consumptive, not productive enterprise. It isn't sustainable, just like taxing the rich is not sustainable. It is imperative for everyone to understand basic logic and economics if they want to have a chance of rationally (where the means match the ends) solve problems in society.
 
If people spent half as much time actually working on and promoting something like this as they do complaining about things and arguing philosophical minutia from their comfy armchairs, something might actually get accomplished. Organization, optimization, promotion.
Here is the thing. You're the one making the post. SO what is your plan?

Near as I can tell, you're armchairing charity, the way you assume libertarians are.

I don't know of any libertarians on welfare. Most of us are producers. We're creating value and jobs and increasing the economic pie every day.

If only everyone who could would carry their own weight, charity would be an afterthough because so few people genuinely need it. The poor in the west today have a much higher standard of living than kings and emperors did 200 years ago.