Birther Revival



More food for thought:

How do many millions of men, scattered over an extensive territory — each gifted by nature with individual freedom; required by the law of nature to call no man, or body of men, his masters; authorized by that law to seek his own happiness in his own way, to do what he will with himself and his property so long as he does not trespass upon the equal liberty of others; authorized also, by that law, to defend his own rights and redress his own wrongs, and to go to the assistance and defense of any of his fellow men who may be suffering any kind of injustice — how do many millions of such men come to be a nation, in the first place?

How is it that each of them comes to be stripped of all his natural, God-given rights, and to be incorporated, compressed, compacted, and consolidated into a mass with other men, whom he never saw; with whom he has no contract; and toward many of whom he has no sentiments but fear, hatred, or contempt?


How does he become subjected to the control of men like himself, who by nature had no authority over him, but who command him to do this and forbid him to do that, as if they were his sovereigns and he their subject — and as if their wills and their interests were the only standards of his duties and his rights — and who compel him to submission under peril of confiscation, imprisonment, and death?


Clearly, all this is the work of force or fraud, or both.
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Entire Spooner essay here:

No Treason, no. 1 - Lysander Spooner - Mises Daily
 
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What bothers me most about the "real" birth certificate is the glaring error of listing Obama's father's birthplace as "Kenya," which didn't exist in 1961, which is the clearest evidence the "real" certificate was retconned. Contrary to Snopes, a native of what became Kenya in 1963 would have transliterated where he lived as "Nyaga" or "Ngaga."
 
JCash said:
What bothers me most about the "real" birth certificate is the glaring error of listing Obama's father's birthplace as "Kenya," which didn't exist in 1961, which is the clearest evidence the "real" certificate was retconned. Contrary to Snopes, a native of what became Kenya in 1963 would have transliterated where he lived as "Nyaga" or "Ngaga."
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JCash said:
Sheriff Joe appears right about the selective service registration form, too. Debbie Schlussel (whom I'd take with a giant grain of salt given her agenda) raised compelling questions about it in 2008. EXCLUSIVE: Did Next Commander-in-Chief Falsify Selective Service Registration? Never Actually Register? Obama’s Draft Registration Raises Serious Questions
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Kiopa_Matt said:
More than a group of "cold case investigators" in the ever red-neck loving, nigger hating state of Arizona.
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Didn't you read the OP? Joe just started it... There are many new people jumping on the bandwagon, including Hawaiians.


tencentpiece said:
What would it take to convince you that it was a real birth certificate? This is why he should have never shown it in the first place, you're always going to find some flaw with it and turn it into some conspiracy theory anyway.
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Me personally? No, I would care far less about the birth certificate if people would stop finding fishy facts about it. It's not like I've gone and done my own research on the thing... I just have noticed the upswing in press lately, hence the OP.


tencentpiece said:
I'll answer your question because I asked you one as well, for me to believe it was faked I'd need to hear a coherent argument as to why it would be faked. Let's look at this quote from above...

Now let's assume there is some giant conspiracy and the CIA/MIC and all the bigshots are involved, surely they can fake a birth certificate? And if they can't, why would they select a candidate that needed one faked in the first place?

I just don't believe that this super elite is going to risk themselves with this type of scandal when it could have been easily avoided if they have the power you're hinting they do.
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The thing is though, it could still have been a technical fuckup. They may have THOUGHT they "easily avoided" the scandal back in the days when PDF software was more simple, so that anyone in the world at the time would have assured them that the mistake was undetectable... But then technology got better after a while and we have new ways of detecting this editing job.

I think this new-pdf-tech theory is what ppl like Sherriff Joe are depending on... Otherwise it's obvious that you're right.


Kiopa_Matt said:
Ummm, no... it's the fact the state of Hawaii has confirmed his birth, both short & long form copies have been released, he has photos of himself as a kid in Hawaii, and so on.
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But others in the state of Hawaii have now come forward and said that no long forms were issued for ANYONE back then... Not to mention a host of other problems with the story. A couple pictures of a guy in a tropical location simply do not prove jack.

Kiopa_Matt said:
I mean, what else would you like to see happen?
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Personally I don't care too much, but for the hardcore birthers I'm sure they'd like to see a congressional investigation like a Ken Star deal again... I don't know what that would accomplish but I'm sure that's what they're aiming for.

Kiopa_Matt said:
Saying a image program picked apart a PDF file, and turned it into layers isn't exactly very good proof. That's what image analyzing programs do. Break shit into layers.
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What they've stated though is that things are breaking into the WRONG layers... Like the layer with the background image in it also has something like a date stamp in it, which no scanner should ever place together. Sounds pretty fishy to me.


IceToEskimos said:
I'm wondering what the birthers actually think would happen if they were somehow proven right. I don't hear this talked about very much, but I suspect they believe that if Obama is not entitled to hold the office of the President, then the entire country gets a big fucking do-over. Maybe they'd just like to see him prosecuted for treason.
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Ah, there's the question I'm all caught up on now. What power would there be to do anything about this? Even after Bill Clinton was Impeached for a blowjob, congress allowed him to stay on as president. (I doubt he would have gotten elected again after that though.)

So if he got impeached, or a formal commission found him guilty of some type of treason, I see no evidence anywhere that things would change and someone else would be allowed in the oval office for the rest of his term.

Therefore, not worth the fight IMO.


JakeStratham said:
Suppose the presented birth certificate is fake. Suppose further it is proven that Obama is not a citizen. What would be your solution to the matter?

Should Obama be dethroned? Should Biden replace him? Should an interim POTUS be installed until the next election?
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SHOULD? I guess for fairness' sake, the proper thing to do would be for Biden to take the rest of this term and Obama not be allowed to run again.


guerilla said:
A quick thought experiment.

What if there was no such thing as a President? What if Obama is just playing a role, previously played by Bush Jr, Clinton etc?

What if he doesn't actually do anything except make speeches and appearances?

What if the power he wields doesn't come from his office or democratic authority, but from your own belief in a system that isn't really there?

food for thot.
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Alright, of course he's just the current puppet, you've made your point. It's certainly not worth any of us getting upset about one way or the other. I only made the thread because there is now a considerable upswing in the media on birther news. I doubt we could use this to get Paul elected, which afterall, is the only related cause worth fighting for.
 
JCash said:
What bothers me most about the "real" birth certificate is the glaring error of listing Obama's father's birthplace as "Kenya," which didn't exist in 1961, which is the clearest evidence the "real" certificate was retconned. Contrary to Snopes, a native of what became Kenya in 1963 would have transliterated where he lived as "Nyaga" or "Ngaga."
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err..?

...by the 1920s there is a sizable Indian population to demand a share in the developing political life of Kenya. (By this time the name has been changed from the East Africa Protectorate to Kenya Colony, celebrating the region's highest mountain.)

Kenya Colony: AD 1920-1963

The establishment of the colony of Kenya brings in its train racial hostilities. New legislation on land tenure shamelessly favours the settlers. In many areas Africans are now formally dispossessed of their land and are confined in reservations (the Kikuyu, the largest tribe, being the main losers), while the 'white highlands' policy restricts the ownership of the best farming land to Europeans. These and other tensions are reflected in the developing political scene.
...
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More: http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?historyid=ad21#ixzz1qRekJ5zw

::emp::
 
i can not understand why people make such a big deal out of the birth certificate thing. Actually - hold this for a moment - most Americans would produce the original paper if requested by law in minutes (if not seconds) and will beg forgiveness for the time it took them, however this guy gets to take his time and play games and ends up showing something that is so poor that it fails to convince most of the people that did not believe him in the first place.

As incredible as it might be, it is the democrats that need to be reminded that the US president is not above the law and should actually serve as a prime example of following the law and complying with it.
 
JakeStratham said:
Should Obama be dethroned? Should Biden replace him? Should an interim POTUS be installed until the next election?

lukep said:
SHOULD? I guess for fairness' sake, the proper thing to do would be for Biden to take the rest of this term and Obama not be allowed to run again.
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The problem is that one tyrant would be replaced with another. Nothing will have changed.

Even in the event that dethroning Obama would lead to Paul becoming president (arguably, a best-case scenario), nothing will have changed long-term. Yes, Paul may refuse to pass laws; he might use his position to educate the public; and he may successfully peel back current regulations.

But in 20 years? We're back to square one. Why? Because people will continue to elect masters* - for themselves and their neighbors, many of whom do not consent to being slaves. I am skeptical that eight years of Paul (again, best-case scenario) will move us toward a voluntaryist society.

By the way, I know these threads go in a thousand directions. I'm disinclined to go further here. If you'd like to continue this discussion in private, PM or email me. :)


* hat tip to guerilla's thought experiment.
 
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