What Do You Do When Your Kids Want To Kill You?
- Thread starter IceToEskimos
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My ideas of parenting are quite counterculture, so what I'm about to say; most experience a knee-jerk reaction to blow it off and call me crazy.. But I have an asshole and an opinion so I'll chime in. These are just some ideas that aren't exactly directed at Ice..
The conventional parent-child authoritarian hierarchy needs to go. We've been conditioned and trained from day one to view children as inferiors and property, where their mere act of (involuntary) existence under our house demands obedience and blind respect.
Humans do not like control. I'll say it again because it might slip by, humans do not like control, regardless of age. Whether the control is coming from the state to its citizenry, a teacher to a student, or a parent to a child-- control will always create struggle.
My sister has a 14 year old daughter and they used the same phone control tactics, and that shit does not work. It only creates for *more* struggle. What if your best friend, a guy you kick back with and drink beers did something to piss you off; or something you didn't agree with, and you took away his phone? You would never consider doing it (unless you're a flat out asshole and wanted a fight). But many parents think that's acceptable from the parent-child relationship because of this belief in hierarchical authority.
The alternative is to start viewing our children as equals. They didn't ask to be our children. They're involuntarily dependent on us for survival, so they owe us nothing beyond thanking us for being good parents (or letting us know if not). If we get rid of demanding obedience "because we're her parents", and we look at them and approach conflict as though we were dealing with our friends, you're replacing control with mutual respect and value for eachothers feelings; much like how we handle friendships. My wife and I started doing this with our toddler. If she wants to eat chocolate and no dinner food, fine. We've found she actually self regulates, much like we do. If she wants go with me to get the mail without shoes when it's 24 degrees, fine; she'll experience some cold. Less headaches, less struggle. Edit: Of course we encourage her to eat right, tell her why, and it sinks in eventually; but the point is we're not changing behavior through control alone.
Our pre frontal cortex (the area of the brain responsible for controlling and processing emotion) isn't fully developed until we're 25. That's why at very young ages, temper tantrums occur (the inability to process emotion). It's why teenagers have such up and down rollercoaster emotions; they can't deal with emotions. It's our job as parents to help them through these times with understanding and love, not through control measures.
With that said, in the OP's case, it doesn't sound like such a terrible thing to remove a phone from someone who's indulging in thoughts of mass murder; but it's still only a control mechanism and it's going to do absolutely 0 to help fix the root problem.
And I actually agree with HB, if these texts weren't in any way taken out of context and she's genuinely experiencing these feelings, something traumatic has happened to her; probably when she was very young; and that will require therapy. In the mean time, I'd strongly consider dealing with this situation as if she was your very best friend, control is not going to fix the problem.
Good luck though man.
The conventional parent-child authoritarian hierarchy needs to go. We've been conditioned and trained from day one to view children as inferiors and property, where their mere act of (involuntary) existence under our house demands obedience and blind respect.
Humans do not like control. I'll say it again because it might slip by, humans do not like control, regardless of age. Whether the control is coming from the state to its citizenry, a teacher to a student, or a parent to a child-- control will always create struggle.
My sister has a 14 year old daughter and they used the same phone control tactics, and that shit does not work. It only creates for *more* struggle. What if your best friend, a guy you kick back with and drink beers did something to piss you off; or something you didn't agree with, and you took away his phone? You would never consider doing it (unless you're a flat out asshole and wanted a fight). But many parents think that's acceptable from the parent-child relationship because of this belief in hierarchical authority.
The alternative is to start viewing our children as equals. They didn't ask to be our children. They're involuntarily dependent on us for survival, so they owe us nothing beyond thanking us for being good parents (or letting us know if not). If we get rid of demanding obedience "because we're her parents", and we look at them and approach conflict as though we were dealing with our friends, you're replacing control with mutual respect and value for eachothers feelings; much like how we handle friendships. My wife and I started doing this with our toddler. If she wants to eat chocolate and no dinner food, fine. We've found she actually self regulates, much like we do. If she wants go with me to get the mail without shoes when it's 24 degrees, fine; she'll experience some cold. Less headaches, less struggle. Edit: Of course we encourage her to eat right, tell her why, and it sinks in eventually; but the point is we're not changing behavior through control alone.
Our pre frontal cortex (the area of the brain responsible for controlling and processing emotion) isn't fully developed until we're 25. That's why at very young ages, temper tantrums occur (the inability to process emotion). It's why teenagers have such up and down rollercoaster emotions; they can't deal with emotions. It's our job as parents to help them through these times with understanding and love, not through control measures.
With that said, in the OP's case, it doesn't sound like such a terrible thing to remove a phone from someone who's indulging in thoughts of mass murder; but it's still only a control mechanism and it's going to do absolutely 0 to help fix the root problem.
And I actually agree with HB, if these texts weren't in any way taken out of context and she's genuinely experiencing these feelings, something traumatic has happened to her; probably when she was very young; and that will require therapy. In the mean time, I'd strongly consider dealing with this situation as if she was your very best friend, control is not going to fix the problem.
Good luck though man.
No, it's going to be a big year for you because you are starting it off on the right foot, and learning new things.
The problem is we don't know enough of the story. I'm willing to bet ITE is still learning new things about the situation himself still. We know that she's at the hospital, so yes, it could be very unfortunate for Ice and his family and I don't wish this upon anyone. What I think is more powerful than control is change, people don't like change. Change can kill. From what I gather, the daughter is going through a lot of changes and she's getting to the point of disassociating herself from her family because of something that happened in the past. Possibly around the age 5 / 6. Just taking a guess here, typically that's when kids develop their behaviors. This is dangerous. I do hope for the best, ITE and his family. Guys who think this is even remotely a troll on Ice, it's so far from it.
Or unreal. It's scary, not like when we were kids. I know that some fuck up shit happened when we were kids too, but not like it does today.
Eh, I'd say that's likely due to media coverage.
Violence is actually decreasing if we look at the last 50 yrs. In the 90's there was something like 42 mass shootings (3 or more deaths from 1 shooter), compared to 2000-2012 there was like 23. (US Stats I believe, I can find the source if you want)
I think people have always been fucked up, just think back to where it was a common and accepted practice to sacrifice children.
On Children
Kahlil Gibran
Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.
You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow,
which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them,
but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.
You are the bows from which your children
as living arrows are sent forth.
The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite,
and He bends you with His might
that His arrows may go swift and far.
Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;
For even as He loves the arrow that flies,
so He loves also the bow that is stable.
Kahlil Gibran
Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.
You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow,
which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them,
but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.
You are the bows from which your children
as living arrows are sent forth.
The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite,
and He bends you with His might
that His arrows may go swift and far.
Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;
For even as He loves the arrow that flies,
so He loves also the bow that is stable.
Holy shit man. I didn't read the original post, but I pieced it together based on reading this thread. I was going to suggest a 5150 (as we call it in California) which is a 72-hour mental health evaluation. Looks like you went that route, which is great.
Please keep us posted to the extent that you can without jeopardizing your privacy.
Will hit you up on Skype tomorrow. Hang in there.
Please keep us posted to the extent that you can without jeopardizing your privacy.
Will hit you up on Skype tomorrow. Hang in there.
I know a few niches that would disagree with your statements!!
Hmmmm........I dunno about that.......the Googlz sayz different:
JFWY!!!!!
Lulz
I know what you're saying and mean.
Hmmmm........I dunno about that.......the Googlz sayz different:
JFWY!!!!!
Lulz
I know what you're saying and mean.
The downward trend in violent crime statistics isn't much comfort when you are faced with someone who lives in the same house as you and fantasizes about murdering you in your sleep.
She's spending the night at the hospital, and from what I heard, she broke down in tears and turned into a little girl when she found out she wasn't coming home tonight.
Hopefully, by morning, any ability she has to lie or obfuscate the truth will have been worn down by the first night she's ever spent in a strange place by herself, and the clinician will be able to get some real answers out of her.
After this I think some weekly family therapy is in order, as well as follow up care for her, depending on what the doctors say in the morning. My girlfriend is amazing. I can only imagine how difficult it was for her to do all of this, and she never cracked or wavered once.
This is far from over, but I'm going to try to get some sleep while I can.
No offense, but you typify everything that is wrong with parenting today. Kids have no fucking clue what to do when they're growing up or what the right thing to do is. Parents have experience from making a shit-ton of mistakes.
And yet here you sound like a guilty little bitch because your child wasn't able to "choose" their parent? My goodness, man. You provided that child with life, food, clothing, shelter, and safety. You're to provide them with morals, instructions on how to live life, advice, etc...
Discipline is the best thing for children. Humans love routine, predictability, and stability.
The claptrap you're spewing, aside from being completely un-original, is the reason we have a ton of narcissistic frozen-in-adolescence people who have only learned to pursue their selfish, self-pleasuring interests, with no regard for the larger concerns of humanity, decency, and dignity.
Still have no idea how a thread about a quasi-psychotic teenager turned into some referendum on Ice's parenting tactics. If I had kids, they wouldn't have television or their own computers, much less cell phones.
I didn't see the original post so don't know exactly what has been said and done, and am not a parent but for what it's worth I think you and your girlfriend are 100% correct in the way you have handled this so far. Don't regret or feel any kind of guilt about putting the safety of ALL first. Hope things work out well, my thoughts are with your family.
So you're criticizing someone's parenting style, and you have zero experience raising a child?
You are talking out of your :bootyshake:.
You've criticizing athletes when you've never played in the NFL.
Good luck to I2E. He needs it.
When shit gets this deep, you know things started going wrong a long time ago. Maybe it's good to stop and reflect on this shit.
I can't give a lot of advice, but one thing I know will help you 100%.
Kids are more emotional than rational. Don't be the hyper-rational father-figure who fails to connect.
Morale is critical in the military and even in business. Who says families don't need it? Gotta have those feel-good moments that cement loyalty and positivity and make someone want to be a part of something.
So you don't have children? Hard to take what your opinion seriously when it's not based on experience. Discipline =/= control.
Children are all different, not sure how anyone can say one parenting method is the "correct" one. What works is highly dependant on the child's intelligence and the "execution" by parents. I grew up without any discipline or control with just my mother for the most part, never had anything taken away from me and as dreamache said I learned to self regulate. It may be anecdotal but I've seen very maladjusted friends and people at school who came from very strict families.
The kids in my house don't have televisions or computers, and their time on the family TV and computer is limited to an hour a day on the computer, and TV only on weekends. We don't have cable, so they can't sit and channel surf, they need to choose a title from an on-demand service and watch that if that's what they want to do. The cell phone thing is tougher, because you'd like to be able to reach your kids when they are out of the house, and, the only way you can be sure to be able to do that is to give them a phone. Personally, I don't think kids need cell phones, and if I were acting unilaterally, she wouldn't have had one, but that's not the way things go sometimes.
I pieced together to situation from the thread, and while I initially thought it was a joke, as the first post was "...", I feel for you that it's really serious. I know how hard it is to deal with family who act crazy from personal experience, though nowhere near what you're dealing with right now.
A couple of things I'd like to point out to you, as you always get a clearer picture from a third person perspective, is to monitor her behaviour when she thinks she isn't being watched rather than in front of other people, to know how she really feels.
You can tell a lot more about people by their non-verbal communication than what they actually say. When you talk to her, note her emotions, or if you aren't good at it, record it and consult a good psychologist.
When she is back home, you should install motion activated sensors (with an alarm?) in order to ensure the rest of your familys safety. Outside her rooms doors maybe, and activate after she's fallen asleep. It might seem a little far fetched, but it's the best option to prevent something terrible from happening after you're asleep.
I'm sure you can also rig them up to lock her sisters doors if she wakes up and starts walking there, and ring an alarm in your room/headphones when she does.
The part about murder making her horny is disturbing. I'm sure this is going to be terrible to think about, but Gore is a very real thing. There are people who get their kicks from things that don't make sense to us. And you know that it is near impossible to control your feelings and subsequent actions at that age.
Also, The fact that she made a secret facebook account and was messaging strangers means that it is a lot more serious thing than just texting random stuff to your friends/boyfriend, you should look into that more, see what websites she's been visiting, her emails, and who has she been talking to, which will give you a lot more insight into her real mental situation.
I really wish you get through this safely and in the best possible manner for her and for you.
100% agree with all of this.
When you give and take something from your children as a form of discipline, you need to think about what you are really teaching them.
Would it be cool to use the same tactics on your wife/girlfriend, or if your SO used those kinds of tactics on you? I'm guessing no, so what makes it okay to do it to a teenager? Because of their age? Grown adults make just as many stupid decisions as children do, so if "judgement capacity" dictates what human rights you are entitled to, most of us should have been sent to bed without dinner tonight.
When you assert control over your children, you are teaching them that they are your property, and you can do as you wish to them. You teach them that stealing is okay so long as they can justify it.
Another thing, kids will think fucked up things. I remember having similar conversations about my family when I was a teenager. Those mental health workers, had they known the things I thought about when I was that age, would have wanted to put me away too. All it would have accomplished would have been fucking me up more and possibly preventing me from ever getting better.
My parents and family were great for the most part. My mother did assert ownership of me and my siblings a little much (she knows this was wrong now after we talked about it a couple years ago), aside from that they were good parents. If I bought something with my own money from a part time job, that was something they would not take if I was grounded. Ever. If my parents did anything to ensure I would come out of puberty a rational human being, it was that. It taught me that working hard was the path I had to take to earn my independence. I bought my own computer and paid for my own internet, if my parents prohibited me from using those when grounded, my attitude towards work and my work ethic would have been very different.
Ice, I understand you feel threatened and I'm not blaming you for the actions you took, my only concern is if this were a big misunderstanding, you will want to figure that out. Social services loves cases like this and will bend over backwards to confirm your worst fears, they will not do your daughter any favors and if you put her in their hands, they will destroy her. I don't know if you or the hospital contacted them yet, but really, avoid involving them that at all costs.
My suggestion is to reevaluate everything you've been doing to discipline her, think about how you felt when your parents used similar methods, and how you would feel if someone used similar methods on you today. If you would have a problem with it, I guarantee she feels the same way for the same reasons.
Not to sound too rude, but I don't think I'd like you very much either if you were my dad and I was 15. Granted, I probably grew up a little earlier than I should have thanks to my wonderful older brothers, but still... she's 15, not 8.
At 15, I'd wake myself up in the morning because everyone was already gone to work, head to school, afterwards head to work usually, then after that hang out with some friends, do some homework over a couple beers, or whatever. Get home around midnight or 1am, goto sleep, wake up the next morning and do it all over again. Other than things like paying the mortgage and bills, I was pretty much self-sufficient at 15.
I couldn't imagine if my parents would have tried to restrict when I can watch TV, how long I can watch, what I can watch, and how often I can be behind the computer. Sure when I was 7 they told me, "turn off the TV, and go outside and play!", but not at 15.
Then again, I don't have kids, so have no idea. Sorry to hear about your troubles, and hope it eventually all works itself out for the betterment of everyone involved.
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