What Do You Do When Your Kids Want To Kill You?

[teatree]

ITE - if you can't bear the thought of them watching TV, then send her to dance classes or piano lessons or something. The idea is to keep her busy doing something she likes - it's win-win - she's enjoying herself and you know she's too busy for Facebook.

I've got two under fives, but have a niece who is 12. She's very into horses. My brother can't afford to get her her own horse, but he pays for her to go riding once a week. It's worth it because she loves those animals, and it keeps her busy in a positive way.

Another suggestion is to get her a pet - people who learn responsibility looking after another living thing tend to learn to care about humans too.

P.S. Not all TV is self absorbed consumption - there's always the BBC and their documentaries and Downton Abbey (don't know if you get that over there)!

But the key thing is to keep her Busy. Otherwise she'll find other destructive ways to fill her time.

 

[WickedJoe]

The main prob with kids today isn't really the kids at all IMO. It's the fact that parents have been holding on tighter and tighter to kids during the last 200 yrs continually increasing the age at which they want to consider them an adult.

People used to be considered working adults and marry-able at 14-16. But mention marrying a 16 yr old now and you're in jail. But yet just because our culture has changed drastically in the last 200 yrs their genetics has not changed! Like it or not they hit hardcore puberty and are ready for independence, work, war, and sex somewhere between 14-16. Their minds are telling them to leave the house and seek independence but yet the needy parents continue to latch on. Modern laws only make it worse.. and are still continually increasing the age at which they gain certain rights (driving, drinking, etc..). They just increased the age someone can be considered a dependent on their parents insurance to something like 26 i think.

And then we sit back and cry.. wondering why our teenagers hate us between 14-18.. while we lock them in our house and our rules when their genetics tells them it's time to go out and start being independent. It's really not all that hard to figure out whats wrong.

btw this is not a critique of Ice or his situation, just of all parenting these days.

 

[greenleaves]

I read every post in the thread, here is my 2ct:

While I agree you must take action now for short term planning, anything further requires you to have a serious look at her life and the family environment you are providing.

Unless she has a chemical imbalance in the brain, then, no matter how nasty this might sound, it is 100% the child's parents fault. No way around it. EVEN if she took drugs (again, we have to look at the root). At 15 a person is for the most part a product of their environment.

To me it sounds like you are treating her as a child, looking for short term peace, but not cultivating things long term. I read the 7 habits of highly effective people, and in it, it mentions P/PC balance. P being production and PC being Potential Capacity. An example would be that I work 17 hour days. By doing that, I'm maximizing my production. But I'm minimizing my Potential production long term, since I'm compromising my health. The fact that you talk about 'split testing' the controls, it seems to me, you focus too much on P and not enough PC. You are all about quadrant 1 and not enough about quadrant 2.


I don't know the whole situation, but this is what I'd consider doing:

1- Send her away for a while. Both her and you need time off. Don't be mean about it. She hasn't DONE anything wrong. She might have just been mouthing off, no matter how foul it is, she didn't DO anything.

Give her some options. Camps, volunteer work, etc. I think volunteer work in something she likes would be awesome. She can get to deal with people less fortunate than her in a place she didn't know existed.

Then, I'd write to her. Keep it over email, so emotions don't explode. Try to really understand her, and accept that you NEED to change the way you are parenting, just as much as she NEEDs to change her attitude to being your daughter. Don't take the hard line that the US has been cultivating. Look at where that goes. Instead, take the comprehensive solution (this doesn't mean velvet gloves, but it means TRULY analyzing your own FAULT in the situation).

And last, keep the gov/authorities out of it as much as possible. They have their own agenda, any help they provide is not for your best interest, but rather for THEIRS. The only part where I would say do involve them, is to verify she doesn't have a PHYSIOLOGICAL mental disorder (i.e. a chemical brain imbalance or something that is not her fault)

 

[teatree]

Another suggestion to keep her busy is to employ her to help you with IM.

Instead of outsourcing writing projects, outsource them to her, and pay her, like a part-time job. It'll keep her busy and give her father-daughter time in one fell swoop. Plus it's a sign you are treating her like a semi-adult by teaching her your business (earning money is a key step to feeling independent).

 

[hellblazer]

The main prob with kids today isn't really the kids at all IMO. It's the fact that parents have been holding on tighter and tighter to kids during the last 200 yrs continually increasing the age at which they want to consider them an adult.

People used to be considered working adults and marry-able at 14-16. But mention marrying a 16 yr old now and you're in jail. But yet just because our culture has changed drastically in the last 200 yrs their genetics has not changed! Like it or not they hit hardcore puberty and are ready for independence, work, war, and sex somewhere between 14-16. Their minds are telling them to leave the house and seek independence but yet the needy parents continue to latch on. Modern laws only make it worse.. and are still continually increasing the age at which they gain certain rights (driving, drinking, etc..). They just increased the age someone can be considered a dependent on their parents insurance to something like 26 i think.

And then we sit back and cry.. wondering why our teenagers hate us between 14-18.. while we lock them in our house and our rules when their genetics tells them it's time to go out and start being independent. It's really not all that hard to figure out whats wrong.

btw this is not a critique of Ice or his situation, just of all parenting these days.

Your analysis makes no sense.

The reason people at 18 were marrying and building a family was because the predominant culture forced them to get a job, be self-sufficient, get going with life. They were considered bums if they lazed around, had no family at 26, and spent all their time drinking and partying.

The culture today infantilizes people, prolongs adolescence, and delays adulthood, all in the name of self-gratification and narcissism. If anything, the parents are more permissive today. I have no idea where you're getting the fact that parents are "more" restrictive and thus holding on to the children.

Kids today have the greatest freedom they ever had and the only guidance they have is their hormones. The only education they get is television, internet, and video games. There is no authority emanating from parents. They're never told to grow up. They're never kicked out of the house and told to get a job. The culture today is a direct result of the loosening, lowering, and abolition of any high standards of behavior for the new generation.

 

[greenleaves]

Also, a big red flag in my view:

I don't know if you have kids or not, but I've paid attention to mine, and what I've seen is that the less time they are able to spend in self absorbed consumption, the happier they are.

Low conflict != happy

Conflict is a necessary part of life. It is part of how we release negativity so it doesn't stay pent up and eventually explode in a tired of murder. Great for you for analyzing these things, but you might be looking for the wrong 'victory'. Victory in parenting = creating awesome, happy adults.

 

[IceToEskimos]

Also, a big red flag in my view:

Low conflict != happy

Conflict is a necessary part of life. It is part of how we release negativity so it doesn't stay pent up and eventually explode in a tired of murder. Great for you for analyzing these things, but you might be looking for the wrong 'victory'. Victory in parenting = creating awesome, happy adults.

Our goal was to create a situation in which the people who live in the house get along, and resolve their differences through discussion instead of arguments.

Obviously, we failed.

 

[Gertex]

Notice, most if not all of the folks giving parental advice in this thread advocating for more freedom for kids etc. do NOT have children that are teenagers. It's really easy to dole out advice, it's whole other ballgame practicing what you preach.

Give your child freedom and unsupervised access to their cellphone? Sure, not a problem. Then them in a hormonal moment sending nude pictures to their boyfriend who shows it around in school and sends it on. Them destroying their life before it even started? Going to jail for the manufacturing and distribution for child pornography? Yeah, not so much.

At that point the parents are called and asked why they were not more responsible.

Guess what - I've got a local case right now were the 14 year old girl send her boyfriend a picture of her boobs. Yup, 'all it was' - a pic of her boobs. He begged and pleaded with her for about 4 months until she finally 'gave' in. Now, shit has hit the fan and everyone is going 'how could this possibly happen?'.

Had a 11 year old 6months ago who got her own laptop, getting visitors from guys at her house because she invited them when they met at an adult bulletin board. Yeah, she ran across one of the 'landers' and registered. Doesn't have many friends at school so she wanted to meet some of the nice people online.

And for anyone not having teenage daughters. Let me tell you - its a whole different ballgame...

 

[WickedJoe]

Your analysis makes no sense.

The reason people at 18 were marrying and building a family was because the predominant culture forced them to get a job, be self-sufficient, get going with life. They were considered bums if they lazed around, had no family at 26, and spent all their time drinking and partying.

The culture today infantilizes people, prolongs adolescence, and delays adulthood, all in the name of self-gratification and narcissism. If anything, the parents are more permissive today. I have no idea where you're getting the fact that parents are "more" restrictive and thus holding on to the children.

Kids today have the greatest freedom they ever had and the only guidance they have is their hormones. The only education they get is television, internet, and video games. There is no authority emanating from parents. They're never told to grow up. They're never kicked out of the house and told to get a job. The culture today is a direct result of the loosening, lowering, and abolition of any high standards of behavior for the new generation.

HB, my analysis is from knowing some history.. and reading a few things on the history of adulthood before.. or maybe it was lectures (cant remember).

I agree with most here that think a child should live by your rules when in your house.. but my point is they shouldn't be forced to stay in the house so long. It makes no historical, biological or psychological sense. It's done because as you say the modern culture is continually infantilizing themselves and their children.. trying as hard as they can to prolong childhood, innocence, etc. They want it so bad that they have moved the age of adulthood which used to be the time at which a person reached puberty to what it is now.. 18 (some ridiculous number).

From wiki:

Historically and cross-culturally, adulthood has been determined primarily by the start of puberty (the appearance of secondary sex characteristics such as menstruation in women, ejaculation in men, and pubic hair in both sexes). In the past, a person usually moved from the status of child directly to the status of adult, often with this shift being marked by some type of coming-of-age test or ceremony.

Adult - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I also know that in historical cultures people used to have sex, marry, fight wars and start work at puberty (ages 13-16). This prolonging childhood bullshit is a modern thing. Taboos are a hilarious human ridiculousness. What is a taboo now was not a taboo then.. yet it's always so hard for us to look beyond taboos. IMO historical adulthood status (basically when puberty hits) made more sense because the body is calling out for sex, independence, etc, so much that it hates those that try to interfere with them attaining it.

You and I probably won't see eye to eye here because you're religious and you would likely prefer your preacher to tell you what adulthood is than biology, psychology, history, etc. But I'm guessing if you even look at biblical history you'll see that adulthood began between 13-16 at the onset of puberty.

 

[dreamache]

This sounds like hippie crap to me. Pussification of America right here.

Every kid needs discipline, structure, clear rules, and a good ass whooping every once in awhile.

Sigh. I hope you have no problem and are openly receptive to receiving a good ass whooping when you fuck up. If you choose not to eat your vegetables and don't listen to me when I tell you to eat them, you better have no problem with a solid kick in the ass; because that will teach you. Or if you choose to do something that's harmful to your body, like drink alcohol, because I know what's best for you, I'll teach you by physically assaulting you.

And I hope you're consistent and give your gf/wife a good ass whooping when she needs it too, to make sure she's set straight.

"But adults aren't children", but then you realize adults and children are human beings and who both respond to control and violence the same exact way.

 

[xpathfucker]

Less TV, PS3, Xbox... is good for every kid. Did that "test" myself. TV is the worst.

Before you go with a mental health approach, just talk to her. She is very likely just wanting attention. Don't be agressive and avoid fighting during this "talk".

Kids are a huge challenge sometimes. All the best Ice.

 

[hellblazer]

they shouldn't be forced to stay in the house so long...

Nobody's forcing them to stay anywhere. Most parents want their kids gone by 18 if they're not going to college.

you're religious and you would likely prefer your preacher to tell you what adulthood is than biology, psychology, history, etc.

I don't think you even understand what I'm saying, much less know anything about what I do or do not believe. We agree that humans in Western society are reaching adulthood later and later. You blame it on the parents, which is definitely a new one. But I'm saying it's the culture.

There's a whole community about how men in particular don't want to grow up, just want to play video games, get high, chase girls, not settle down, all the way in to their 20s and 30s. How they're falling behind in school, are a huge percentage of F students, are the minority in colleges, etc..

It has nothing to do with parents "forcing" them to stay home.

It has everything to do with modern culture that glorifies such childish behavior and has completely removed the shame that used to exist towards such ridiculous behavior. Look at all the latest Hollywood movies, that ridiculous dude Seth Rogen, Clerks, etc.. all playing stoners who are pushing 20 if not older, yet they sit at home smoking, playing videogames, and looking at porn.

It also has to do with how the entire teaching methods have changed to be tailored to how girls learn. Again, there's been a ton of stuff written about this, how the education community only focuses on girls and as a result guys are failing in record numbers.

And you somehow blame this on parents not letting them leave? The parents bear a lot of blame for not imposing discipline in the early years, but beyond that it's their child's fault for not realizing he's acting like a fuckup and changing his ways. It's why Asian kids generally dominate scholastically, because their parents are like drill sergeants.

 

[WickedJoe]

Nobody's forcing them to stay anywhere. Most parents want their kids gone by 18 if they're not going to college.

I'm not talking about 18, i'm talking about at the onset of puberty. Are you saying a 13-16 yr old has the freedom to walk away and start a life at that age these days? Bullshit.
You can't even legally get a job till 16 and I think full time is even harder till 18. Not sure how easy it would be to get an apartment, etc at 13-16. Driving starts at 16.

We agree that humans in Western society are reaching adulthood later and later. You blame it on the parents, which is definitely a new one. But I'm saying it's the culture.

I blame the culture too but the parents MAKE and promote the culture.. so they're to blame as well I'd think. The child is simply born into the culture and usually their body revolts against the unnatural culture at puberty because their body says they are an adult way before their culture does.

Even more hypocritical.. the parent enforces a culture on their kids that they themselves successfully revolted against earlier. A modern father will look back at having sex with his 16 yr old girlfriend with happiness yet shriek in horror thinking of their kid doing the same thing and will try to enforce whatever bullshit policy they can to stop it from happening. What a load of shit..

There's a whole community about how men in particular don't want to grow up, just want to play video games, get high, chase girls, not settle down, all the way in to their 20s and 30s. How they're falling behind in school, are a huge percentage of F students, are the minority in colleges, etc..

It has nothing to do with parents "forcing" them to stay home.

I'm mainly talking about the parent/child interaction here.. and I thought that's what the thread was mainly about. I don't care what people do living in their own house on their own time as long as they're not hurting anyone or taking others money (welfare).

Negative parent/child interaction has everything to do with society forcing them to stay in a home and situation that they've grown out of. There's also the taboo of leaving the home at that age, lack of work for young people if they want it, etc. I'm definitely not saying a child should be forced out at any age.. but just that we'd probably eliminate this teen angst shit if we gave them the option to go out and make their own lives at puberty (real adulthood). Hell, teen angst would turn into teen love and respect for their parent asap.

 

[WickedJoe]

Oh, and from what I've seen the people with the teen angst and who have the most probs DO want the freedom to live separate from the parents. The ones that want to live with the parents forever are not the ones with serious behavior probs.. they're just lazy.

 

[IceToEskimos]

I can't believe I liked a Hellblazer post, but I did.

I have to agree that the "childhood is precious, and must be prolonged for as long as possible" seems to result in more and more people getting trapped in adolescence, for longer and longer periods of time.

I don't think it's just boys though, women seem to be just as likely to get stuck in a permanent highschool state of mind.

Take a look at the average woman's Facebook/Gossipbook account, and you'll see what I mean.

 

[hellblazer]

women seem to be just as likely to get stuck in a permanent highschool state of mind.

Take a look at the average woman's Facebook/Gossipbook account, and you'll see what I mean.

Emotionally I think that's true, although they have the upper hand academically and as a result financially.

For those interested, here's an article about how males are falling behind within the U.S. education system.

And here's a British version of the same phenomenon.

It's part of the reason I would never send any future kids to public school.

 

[Moxie]

It has everything to do with modern culture that glorifies such childish behavior and has completely removed the shame that used to exist towards such ridiculous behavior...


It's why Asian kids generally dominate scholastically...

 

[Napolean]

I don't mean to pile on dreamache.

But yeah, your approach sounds very new-age-womens-magazine-romantic-comedy-hollywood parenting.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...ed-their-egalitarian-ways-three-complementary

It's not exactly "new age".

Theory 3: Hunter-gatherers maintained their ethos of equality through their childrearing practices, which engendered feelings of trust and acceptance in each new generation.

As I have explained in a previous post, hunter-gatherers employed a style of parenting that others have referred to as "permissive" or "indulgent," but which I prefer to call "trusting." They trusted infants' and children's instincts, and so they allowed infants to decide, for example, when to nurse or not nurse and allowed children to educate themselves through their own self-directed play and exploration. They did not physically punish children and rarely criticized them.

 

[drave]

my best friend and his wife adopted the "our kids are our equals" hippie approach. their home quickly fell into chaos. i wouldn't even visit them anymore, it was like visiting a zoo with no zookeepers, and they only had 2 kids under 10. it was comical. they got ostracized. they pulled their kids out of public school because the other kids were so different. they lost all their friends, and decided to move to a commune in california. the mother is now a phobic -- won't fly, drive, or go to the mailbox, and their kids are becoming just like her, afraid of everything outside their home, panic attacks for no reason.

this all started in 2007 when the mother joined liberal chatgroups to help promote obama. her 6 year old was out front of the house scrawling "obama 2008" in chalk on the sidewalk while his mom was inside losing her fucking mind and ruining a family.

"kids as equals"? hippie bullshit.

 

[greenleaves]

Our goal was to create a situation in which the people who live in the house get along, and resolve their differences through discussion instead of arguments.

Obviously, we failed.

I hear you. I wasn't saying you didn't try. I can tell you did, and you care very much about your family. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. I wish you and your daughter the best.

Re: kids are equals, I agree, that is retarded.