What Do You Do When Your Kids Want To Kill You?

[Moxie]

my best friend and his wife adopted the "our kids are our equals" hippie approach. their home quickly fell into chaos.

Well, rules (or the lack thereof) aren't the only possible causation for a behavior. If we look at alcohol for example, many parents in Europe and even some schools there allow it, but binge drinking tends to be a bigger problem for teens in the US.

If a parent removes a no drinking rule and suddenly their teen is getting drunk every day and screaming at the tv, that might be more because that is what they witnessed their parents doing.

If every household in the US with teens allowed them to drink tomorrow, there would be a lot of variance in drinking rates among those households. Some would be "chaos", but in others there wouldn't be any drinking at all.

 

[dreamache]

my best friend and his wife adopted the "our kids are our equals" hippie approach. their home quickly fell into chaos. i wouldn't even visit them anymore, it was like visiting a zoo with no zookeepers, and they only had 2 kids under 10. it was comical. they got ostracized. they pulled their kids out of public school because the other kids were so different. they lost all their friends, and decided to move to a commune in california. the mother is now a phobic -- won't fly, drive, or go to the mailbox, and their kids are becoming just like her, afraid of everything outside their home, panic attacks for no reason.

this all started in 2007 when the mother joined liberal chatgroups to help promote obama. her 6 year old was out front of the house scrawling "obama 2008" in chalk on the sidewalk while his mom was inside losing her fucking mind and ruining a family.

"kids as equals"? hippie bullshit.

...because I'm totally an Obama supporter; and my house is totally chaotic like a zoo-keeperless-zoo.

Nope, my house is just absent of grown adults who don't use their physical superiority over defenseless children to keep them in line.. We don't need to, we're a bit more mature and creative than that.

..and lol @ conformity.

 

[drave]

...because I'm totally an Obama supporter; and my house is totally chaotic like a zoo-keeperless-zoo.

Nope, my house is just absent of grown adults who don't use their physical superiority over defenseless children to keep them in line.. We don't need to, we're a bit more mature and creative than that.

..and lol @ conformity.

while i wasn't talking about you, and i can totally see the potential benefits of your approach, i wonder how you'd react when your son walked up to you and said "order me a pizza, bitch".

how does one respond to that in an equalitarian manner? you can't fight him. you can't kick him out. how do you deal with that as if he were an equal?

 

[dreamache]

while i wasn't talking about you, and i can totally see the potential benefits of your approach, i wonder how you'd react when your son walked up to you and said "order me a pizza, bitch".

I'd laugh, because he would be talking like me and just fucking around. My daughter (3) recently said, "Where the fuck is my cover", we just laughed because we thought it sounded cute. We're strong believers in context.

Now you're insinuating of course he would be serious, in which case I'd say that sort of behavior would be highly improbable or circumstantial if he were my son. My entire approach is about mutual respect. I could see that sort of behavior existing in a parent-child relationship where the parent was an insane authoritarian OR were entirely neglectful.

 

[drave]

I'd laugh, because he would be talking like me and just fucking around. My daughter (3) recently said, "Where the fuck is my cover", we just laughed because we thought it sounded cute. We're strong believers in context.

Now you're insinuating of course he would be serious, in which case I'd say that sort of behavior would be highly improbable or circumstantial if he were my son. My entire approach is about mutual respect. I could see that sort of behavior existing in a parent-child relationship where the parent was an insane authoritarian OR were entirely neglectful.

i guess ICE is a shit parent then? is that what you're saying? great parents always produce great kids?

 

[dreamache]

Tried editing, too late. To humor the question above, if my son said that I'd get to the root problem. A person just doesn't shit on another person for no apparent reason. A person doesn't become a shithead, or treat others like shit on their own free will. So if he said that to me in an actual serious asshole-like tone, I'd get to the bottom of it because it would be entirely out of character. I certainly wouldn't hit him, lock him up in a room or do bandaid shit like remove phones and computers.

 

[dreamache]

i guess ICE is a shit parent then? is that what you're saying? great parents always produce great kids?

Ice is a stepfather, and a kid saying "order me a pizza, bitch" is entirely different than someone expressing feelings of mass murder.

Nice job with the leap in conclusions though.

 

[drave]

To humor the question above, if my son said that I'd get to the root problem.

the problem i have is that if i have a problem with a friend (an equal), i TRY to get to the root of the problem. if i can't, i have to cut that friend loose. with kids, cutting them loose is not an option.

do you seriously not see the difference, and thus why that philosophy is flawed?

 

[IceToEskimos]

I certainly wouldn't hit him, lock him up in a room or do bandaid shit like remove phones and computers.

The idea behind using the phone and computer/media as a motivator is rooted in my personal belief that a distinction needs to be drawn between things that are necessary, and things that are superfluous.

We try to introduce soft versions of real world consequences, so that hopefully by the time they are old enough to be able to incur real world consequences for their actions they'll understand the relationship because cause and effect.

A good example of this is the phone. If you don't perform adequately at your job, you'll likely be fired, and if you don't have a job, you won't have the money to pay for luxury items like cell phones and internet access.

While it's a bit of a stretch, we've been explicit in our explanation that getting good grades in school is her "job" for the time being, and if her performance suffers there, she'll lose access to the luxury items we have provided for her.

The hope is that she'll equate the work she puts in at school with the reward of being able to talk on the phone whenever she wants to, use the computer, etc.

It's never been a case of just seizing her property with no explanation.

 

[drave]

Ice is a stepfather, and a kid saying "order me a pizza, bitch" is entirely different than someone expressing feelings of mass murder.

Nice job with the leap in conclusions though.

right, because stepkids never say what "real" kids say, and the difference between pizzas & murder is totally based on marital status. LOL.

 

[drave]

i feel guilty even talking about your parenting style on WF, ice... hoping the best for you.

 

[IceToEskimos]

i guess ICE is a shit parent then?

I have come to accept that this is entirely possible, although I've done everything I could to make sure that her life is better than mine was at her age, and I don't mean materially.

 

[dreamache]

the problem i have is that if i have a problem with a friend (an equal), i TRY to get to the root of the problem. if i can't, i have to cut that friend loose. with kids, cutting them loose is not an option.

do you seriously not see the difference, and thus why that philosophy is flawed?

It's easy to cut loose a friendship if you can't outright figure out wtf is going on, unless of course it's a very close friendship.. in which case you're much more determined to figure it out.

With a child, you have much more incentive to reach that root problem, it may just take a lot of time and patience. But the more secure your kids feel around you with sharing emotions and feelings, the easier that situation is to avoid. There's always a reason though, there's always a cause. While it's easy to eventually brush off the bullshit and say, "they're just a stubborn fuckface", that's not the truth. The truth may be hormones/emotions they can't control due to an underdeveloped PFC, or something entirely unseen.

 

[drave]

I have come to accept that this is entirely possible, although I've done everything I could to make sure that her life is better than mine was at her age, and I don't mean materially.

you're alright, brother. anybody reading this thread can see that clearly. keep your head up.

 

[rusvik]

And for anyone not having teenage daughters. Let me tell you - its a whole different ballgame...

Teenage daughter daddies would do best to just accept that all women have a whore part and that their precious little daddy girl will at some point gag on cock and take it up the ass from some guy. The only thing that works at restricting this is keeping women in practicaly slavery like in the muslim world. Women are going to slut it up if left to their own device. So either take charge, like the muslims, or accept your teenage girl gives out blowjobs for bigmacs and stop ruining innocent guys lives becuase you're daughter is 17 and not 18.

 

[Napolean]

A friend asks a good question. The Young Statesman (12) kicked it around for a long time.

Q: Ok....lets play devils advocate- what do you say to the emerging evidence that the human brain is not fully developed until after adolescence - so therefore the duty of the parent is to "protect them from themselves" (due to faulty decision making capabilities)?

A: (From YS) It used to be that black peop le and women didn't have rights. One of the excuses for denying them their rights was that their brains were not the same as those of white men. They needed to be protected from themselves. Today when we say that a black person needs to be protected from himself we call it racism. When we say that a woman needs to be protected from herself we call it sexism. When we say that children (not infants or toddlers) need to be protected from themselves we don't question it. I think it's ageism. It's insulting.

Brain maturity may be a part of the competency pie but is it all of it? Clearly brain maturity doesn't guarantee good decision making. My experience with adults is that brain maturity doesn't determine competency. In fact, adults with fully mature brains have done horrific things. They have committed atrocities. They have caused economic collapse. They have submitted themselves and their children to the state. Clearly, brain maturity does not ensure good decision making. Knowledge, experience, ethics, logic, and reason are also parts of the pie. I'm not convinced that brain maturity plays as big a role as we seem to think it does. (It is convenient for adults to say that children are not competent. And when children argue back, adults say, 'your brain isn't mature enough. Of course you'd think that.' You can't win.)

I think that if the standard is good decision making, many adults will need to have other people protect them from their bad decisions. Why do they retain all of their rights as adults even if they're not competent? If the standard is good decision making, why allow adults who make poor decisions keep their rights?

Figured this would be relevant here also. YS is an abbreviation for "Young Statesmen", a 12-year old boy.

 

[dreamache]

First let me preface this by saying that I believe you're well-intentioned and not a "bad parent"

The idea behind using the phone and computer/media as a motivator is rooted in my personal belief that a distinction needs to be drawn between things that are necessary, and things that are superfluous.

We try to introduce soft versions of real world consequences, so that hopefully by the time they are old enough to be able to incur real world consequences for their actions they'll understand the relationship because cause and effect.

A good example of this is the phone. If you don't perform adequately at your job, you'll likely be fired, and if you don't have a job, you won't have the money to pay for luxury items like cell phones and internet access.

While it's a bit of a stretch, we've been explicit in our explanation that getting good grades in school is her "job" for the time being, and if her performance suffers there, she'll lose access to the luxury items we have provided for her.

The hope is that she'll equate the work she puts in at school with the reward of being able to talk on the phone whenever she wants to, use the computer, etc.

It's never been a case of just seizing her property with no explanation.

Trust me man, we understand cause and effect from a very early age, naturally. The tinkering we do that pisses our parents off (like my daughter spilling a glass of water all the time) is experiencing and understanding cause and effect.

The best way to teach good work ethic is by example. Trying to force children into uncomfortable scenarios against their will may work in the short term, but actually encourages procrastination and under-productivity later in life when situations really matter. Every time they need to actually do something, a deeply rooted voice they're not even aware of says, "No, no, no", because that's what they experienced through much of childhood from their parents and their teachers every time they were told to do something against their will.

Public education is bullshit, it really is and it's unfortunate your children have to undergo that system as I did. Being told you have to learn this and that against your will is bullshit, and it's not so much about education as it is about creating obedient citizens.

But if you want your kids to do well in school, instead of threatening them by taking away personal possessions, tell them "You can perform however you want. Just understand that if you fail or flunk out, it'll severely impact your ability to get a good job later in life. It's your decision, it's your life." Teenagers aren't stupid, they get it. They rebel because they don't like being controlled, not because they're inherently irresponsible. So while parents are well-intentioned by trying to force their children to do certain things, the results are often opposite of the intended goals.

Edit: And with those last few words in mind, that's oddly similar to government policy.

 

[soulbyproxy]

First let me preface this by saying that I believe you're well-intentioned and not a "bad parent"



Trust me man, we understand cause and effect from a very early age, naturally. The tinkering we do that pisses our parents off (like my daughter spilling a glass of water all the time) is experiencing and understanding cause and effect.

The best way to teach good work ethic is by example. Trying to force children into uncomfortable scenarios against their will may work in the short term, but actually encourages procrastination and under-productivity later in life when situations really matter. Every time they need to actually do something, a deeply rooted voice they're not even aware of says, "No, no, no", because that's what they experienced through much of childhood from their parents and their teachers every time they were told to do something against their will.

Public education is bullshit, it really is and it's unfortunate your children have to undergo that system as I did. Being told you have to learn this and that against your will is bullshit, and it's not so much about education as it is about creating obedient citizens.

But if you want your kids to do well in school, instead of threatening them by taking away personal possessions, tell them "You can perform however you want. Just understand that if you fail or flunk out, it'll severely impact your ability to get a good job later in life. It's your decision, it's your life." Teenagers aren't stupid, they get it. They rebel because they don't like being controlled, not because they're inherently irresponsible.

So your parents didn't raise you this way then. How did you arrive at this philosophy of child-rearing?

 

[IceToEskimos]

First let me preface this by saying that I believe you're well-intentioned and not a "bad parent"



Trust me man, we understand cause and effect from a very early age, naturally. The tinkering we do that pisses our parents off (like my daughter spilling a glass of water all the time) is experiencing and understanding cause and effect.

The best way to teach good work ethic is by example. Trying to force children into uncomfortable scenarios against their will may work in the short term, but actually encourages procrastination and under-productivity later in life when situations really matter. Every time they need to actually do something, a deeply rooted voice they're not even aware of says, "No, no, no", because that's what they experienced through much of childhood from their parents and their teachers every time they were told to do something against their will.

Public education is bullshit, it really is and it's unfortunate your children have to undergo that system as I did. Being told you have to learn this and that against your will is bullshit, and it's not so much about education as it is about creating obedient citizens.

But if you want your kids to do well in school, instead of threatening them by taking away personal possessions, tell them "You can perform however you want. Just understand that if you fail or flunk out, it'll severely impact your ability to get a good job later in life. It's your decision, it's your life." Teenagers aren't stupid, they get it. They rebel because they don't like being controlled, not because they're inherently irresponsible. So while parents are well-intentioned by trying to force their children to do certain things, the results are often opposite of the intended goals.

Edit: And with those last few words in mind, that's oddly similar to government policy.

I agree with all of this, which is why I've been very clear that how she performs in school is entirely her choice, but that by choosing not to apply herself and make an honest effort, she is in effect choosing not to enjoy certain privileges.

How would you handle it if your child decided that academic achievement and participation was not something he was interested in?

There's a finite amount of time in which it's easy to obtain a simple High School education, and while I agree that it's largely bullshit, I don't think that allowing a child to decide that they don't need an education when they have absolutely NO concept of time or consequence on an adult time scale is doing them justice.

 

[Kiopa_Matt]

But if you want your kids to do well in school, instead of threatening them by taking away personal possessions, tell them "You can perform however you want. Just understand that if you fail or flunk out, it'll severely impact your ability to get a good job later in life. It's your decision, it's your life." Teenagers aren't stupid, they get it.

I think it also very much depends on the environment you're growing up in as well. Growing up in a 10,000 rural community is totally different than the middle of an huge city.

If you're in a 10k town and drop out of school, almost everyone is going to know that you're the loser dropout, and they'll treat you respectively. And there's no escaping it, so just that is generally enough to keep people on the right path without any real involvement from the parents. Whereas in a huge city, it's totally different. Nobody knows you, nor do they care, so there's no societal pressure like there is in a small town. In a city, it's much easier to go astray.