A diet thread for grown-ups

[clear]

@Jeffrey meat (especially red) has certainly been linked to both heart disease and cancer.

I eat meat. I love meat. But at the same time I know that I would probably be better off eating less of it, or not eating it at all.

It is clear that we humans are not anatomically designed to eat meat (or at least very little of it). Our teeth structure is more similar to herbivores like cows or horses, than to omnivores/carnivores.

1 - Human
2 - Cow
3 - Cat
4 - Dog
5 - Horse

How do you get that our structure is more similar to herbivores than to carnivores? Humans structure looks nothing like either. Apples and oranges.

 

[papajohn56]

I think that's a difficult question to answer. If given the choice between organic and not organic I think you'd be foolish not to eat organic foods. There are lots of chemicals that we only fully understand decades after they've been introduced into food and if I have both options I'd rather not take my chances. With that being said, organic doesn't mean healthy. It should be pretty obvious that organic whole milk is worse for you than not organic skim milk, and organic beef is worse for you than not organic chicken.

Organic is probably better than not organic, but organic doesn't mean healthy. A cigarette can be all natural and organic too but that doesn't mean it's good for you.

What chemicals are you talking about then? You do realize organic farmers use certain chemical pesticides too, right? They're just "USDA Organic permitted" pesticides - i.e. they cannot be synthetic, but if they're pulled from something else they're fine. There are a lot of things that are natural that are dangerous chemicals that can kill you.

It's the same fear mongering about GMO foods, there are no credible studies showing GM foods are less safe or more harmful.

On top of that, if organic farming were used more widespread, it wouldn't be able to support the full population of the planet.

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com...101-organic-farming-conventional-agriculture/

Freakonomics » The Cost of Eating Organic Food; or: Will E. Coli Increase Our Appetite for Irradiated Food?

http://www.freakonomics.com/2011/06/30/greenwashing-the-groceries/

 

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[papajohn56]

This is an "organic pesticide", and very widely used:

Rotenone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[MSTeacher]

It's the same fear mongering about GMO foods, there are no credible studies showing GM foods are less safe or more harmful.

If you sincerely believe that then I strongly urge you to read either or both of these books.

Amazon.com: Jeffrey M. Smith: Books, Biography, Blog, Audiobooks, Kindle

 

[cardine]

Why would this be obvious? What are you basing this on? And do you know anything about omega-6 vs. omega-3 fats and the very high ratio of the former to the latter (i.e. pro-inflammatory) in conventionally grown animals?

Unless I've misunderstood your point (completely possible) aren't you agreeing with me?

Skim milk has no omega-6 vs. omega-3 and whole milk has a lot of them.

I'd take no saturated fat over no growth hormones fed to the cow any day. One has proven negative side effects that are very well understood and one of them doesn't.

And likewise I'd take factory chicken over free range organic red meat (regardless of how 'natural' the cow was treated, red meat still is very very unhealthy for you).

Now of course all other things being equal there's no reason not to choose organic over not organic if everything else is the same.

It's not that simple. A lot of farmed salmon is unacceptably high in Organochlorines (e.g. PCBs).

Global Assessment of Organic Contaminants in Farmed Salmon (I have the full journal article if anyone is interested)





Again, not necessarily. That's according to the lipid hypothesis, which is disputable.

Elsevier

The fat content of milk is very dependant on the animal's diet. Grass-fed beef produces different (and some say healthier) milk than corn-fed. Also, the demonisation of saturated fats is based on a huge oversimplification. There are a many different saturated fatty acids, which all affect the body differently.

It's interesting how many people in this thread equate diet with weight loss. Not sure if that's because you've all been slinging the berriez for too long, or something that's embedded in the western psyche. What you is about far more than your waist measurement.

Appreciate the information. Would wild range salmon be ok?

Regarding the types of saturated fats, is there anyway to find out which foods have different amounts of the different types of saturated fats? There's no way for me at the supermarket to tell if the saturated fat in question is good or bad, so in general I try to avoid it. I'd much rather get my fats from nuts/fish where you know the fat is the good type of fat.

And are you saying that in some instances whole milk (depending on the type of fat) is better for you than skim milk?



Not so much interested in arguing/debating as I am interested in learning, as I really don't want to die
So I appreciate the thread and the facts and data you are trying to bring to it.

What chemicals are you talking about then? You do realize organic farmers use certain chemical pesticides too, right? They're just "USDA Organic permitted" pesticides - i.e. they cannot be synthetic, but if they're pulled from something else they're fine. There are a lot of things that are natural that are dangerous chemicals that can kill you.

It's the same fear mongering about GMO foods, there are no credible studies showing GM foods are less safe or more harmful.

On top of that, if organic farming were used more widespread, it wouldn't be able to support the full population of the planet.

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com...101-organic-farming-conventional-agriculture/

Freakonomics » The Cost of Eating Organic Food; or: Will E. Coli Increase Our Appetite for Irradiated Food?

http://www.freakonomics.com/2011/06/30/greenwashing-the-groceries/

If you have the choice between organic milk and not organic milk (everything else about the milk is the same) are you saying that you would choose the not organic milk?

I don't think GMOs are bad; I think GMOs and factory farming will likely solve world hunger. However, being lucky enough to be able to afford to spend a little extra money to have something organic (when everything else about the food is the same) I see no reason not to.

 

[clear]

On top of that, if organic farming were used more widespread, it wouldn't be able to support the full population of the planet.

I wonder if Americans actually ate right and didnt waste 1/3 of each of their meals if it would be possible that natural farming practices could feed everyone.

 

[jeffrey]

I wonder if Americans actually ate right and didnt waste 1/3 of each of their meals if it would be possible that natural farming practices could feed everyone.

Have you seen Americans lately? I'm pretty sure we aren't wasting 1/3 of our food.

 

[WildGunner]

I wonder if Americans actually ate right and didnt waste 1/3 of each of their meals if it would be possible that natural farming practices could feed everyone.

Hunger and food are not about the availability of resources as much as they are politics, control and greed. More food is destroyed than consumed than people are aware.

 

[johnmatrix]

I know right? Alternative medicine doesn't have anything good to contribute. Personally when I look for health information I make sure my source has a powerful lobby behind it and is endorsed by at least one multinational pharmaceutical company.

Personally I like to see actual results. I watched my mother waste her money and time on acupuncture and bullshit Chinese herbal remedies for her eye condition 'blepharospasm', which Western medicine has no cure for. The only treatment is botox injections to relax the muscles. No alternative remedy worked of course, but they still happily took her money and promised it would help if she had acupuncture twice a week.

Then I watched my grandfather go through the same thing for his issues, surprise surprise nothing helped. Sure they might be able to diagnose things that western medicine overlooks, but the treatments are bologna. They also sell false promises which is even worse than what pharmaceutical companies do, at least their drugs work.

Remember, alternative medicine killed Steve Jobs.

 

[MSTeacher]

I hear that. Interesting how much experience shapes beliefs, it's been different for me. My grandfather went in for a checkup, they found a couple small tumors, not very aggressive, did the whole radiation/chemo/drugs thing, he was dead in two weeks.

My father has had insomnia for most of his life, tried everything under the sun. Went to a naturopath for three sessions, first two she asked him a million questions, third she gave him a variety of herbs and supplements to use in various ways. He sleeps like a baby.

My brother fucked up his wrist and it bothered him for like three years. Tried everything. Went to a naturopath who tweaked his diet, recommended supplements & lifestyle changes. Combined that with a sports trainer and he was good to go three months later.

I know they're just anecdotes but as you said it's about the results. I've had good results personally with alternative approaches to health and wellness. Then again there's a place for everything, if drugs/surgery/bone setting is in the cards I'm not calling my naturopath.

 

[-joe-]

I hear that. Interesting how much experience shapes beliefs, it's been different for me. My grandfather went in for a checkup, they found a couple small tumors, not very aggressive, did the whole radiation/chemo/drugs thing, he was dead in two weeks.

My father has had insomnia for most of his life, tried everything under the sun. Went to a naturopath for three sessions, first two she asked him a million questions, third she gave him a variety of herbs and supplements to use in various ways. He sleeps like a baby.

My brother fucked up his wrist and it bothered him for like three years. Tried everything. Went to a naturopath who tweaked his diet, recommended supplements & lifestyle changes. Combined that with a sports trainer and he was good to go three months later.

I know they're just anecdotes but as you said it's about the results. I've had good results personally with alternative approaches to health and wellness. Then again there's a place for everything, if drugs/surgery/bone setting is in the cards I'm not calling my naturopath.

Anecdotes about medicine are no more valuable than me saying "I had a headache, but then I ate a can of baked beans. The next day I didn't have a headache. BAKED BEANS CURE HEADACHES."

Surely a double blind test would be a reasonable way of testing the efficacy of homeopathy etc?

Homeopathic treatment of plantar warts. [CMAJ. 1992] - PubMed - NCBI
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21784327

 

[m0rtal]

Personally I like to see actual results. I watched my mother waste her money and time on acupuncture and bullshit Chinese herbal remedies for her eye condition 'blepharospasm', which Western medicine has no cure for. The only treatment is botox injections to relax the muscles. No alternative remedy worked of course, but they still happily took her money and promised it would help if she had acupuncture twice a week.

Then I watched my grandfather go through the same thing for his issues, surprise surprise nothing helped. Sure they might be able to diagnose things that western medicine overlooks, but the treatments are bologna. They also sell false promises which is even worse than what pharmaceutical companies do, at least their drugs work.

Remember, alternative medicine killed Steve Jobs.

http://www.wickedfire.com/shooting-shit/153475-why-did-steve-jobs-die.html

 

[clear]

Have you seen Americans lately? I'm pretty sure we aren't wasting 1/3 of our food.

Even with obesity, Americans still waste a ton of food. Go to any restaurant and ask the manager how much food is tossed out.

 

[papajohn56]

I wonder if Americans actually ate right and didnt waste 1/3 of each of their meals if it would be possible that natural farming practices could feed everyone.

Americans make up less than 10% of the world, and these calculations are based on global population.

 

[papajohn56]

If you have the choice between organic milk and not organic milk (everything else about the milk is the same) are you saying that you would choose the not organic milk?

I don't think GMOs are bad; I think GMOs and factory farming will likely solve world hunger. However, being lucky enough to be able to afford to spend a little extra money to have something organic (when everything else about the food is the same) I see no reason not to.

Yes and I routinely do choose non-organic. I've never bought organic milk. Why should I? It costs more with absolutely no verifiable benefits. It has to be pasteurized too, so the argument of "more nutrients not cooked off" is void. It's not raw milk.

 

[crackp0t]

http://www.wickedfire.com/shooting-shit/153475-why-did-steve-jobs-die.html

This guy is ANNOYING
A. He repeats himself constantly
B. He is making assumptions based on second hand information from non medical sources.
C. He is not privy to any of the medical records and he is assuming the doctors that treated him made the wrong Dx several times. So without examining the patient, taking a history of the patient, reading all of the tests, blood work, MRI (or even a simple x-ray which would show stones), he thinks he is smarter than the treating doctors. Also when a patient is suspected of having kidney stones they make the Pt piss through a strainer to capture the stone so they can determine the composition.
D. He says Sonometer and not centimeter Jesus Christ I hate that shit. Saying it incorrectly, even if it is common, makes you a moron.
E. Animal protein does not make you susceptible to kidney stones. Not having access to his records he does not even know what kind of stone he had.
National Kidney Foundation: A to Z Health Guide Item
F. I have to stop listening I do not even know what is point is but he is a moron who is GUESSING his way to some conclusion based on second hand word of mouth comments and his half assed medical knowledge. He is talking to lay people so he is getting away with it. If he were in front of other docs they would be throwing tomatoes at him.

To save everyone 40 min of their lives.

 

[crackp0t]

Even with obesity, Americans still waste a ton of food. Go to any restaurant and ask the manager how much food is tossed out.

You ever think that's because the average restaurant gives you two times more than you need? I can generally get 2 meals out of what ever I order.

 

[rusvik]

I think diet is hugely individual. Because of the pc stuff about race we don't look at the fact that there are significant biological differences in race. Asians are for example much smaller on average and have more flexible hamstrings which allow them to squat in ways white people can't. Try doing a flat footed squat if you don't believe me.

Anyway, that was just a point. For many years scientists thought the mediterranean diet was the healthiest high in the good fats. But obviously the Japanese diet seems to work for them and they eat a lot of rice.

But the commonality is a focus on fresh, unprocessed produce and strict standards of food quality (kobe beef or parma ham for example). Where as where people live the shortest Northern Europe and America, we stuff our faces with everything without regard to what it is. The food we eat is very far from the actual source. I think is important to keep in mind.

When you eat unprocessed food or raw food your body responds to it and you feel full when you're actually full. When you eat processed crap, there are so many additives it fools your body into either craving more or feeling full when you haven't gotten your nutrients.

I would think that if you stuck to eating your ethnicities traditional raw, fresh food you would do ok, but stay away from the 1800 century peasent food low in protein.

That's just my wild speculation just as invalid as everyone elses.

 

[hehejo]

^if our bodies did adapt to it, how come our jaw structure didn't evolve to look more like an omnivore/carnivore?

Because we don't hunt with our fucking mouth?