Um just because you can't explain it doesn't make it unexplainable and certainly doesn't support a belief in a giant fairy in the sky.
Ah, Religion - My Short Story
- Thread starter SUP3RNOVA
- Start date
Um just because you can't explain it doesn't make it unexplainable and certainly doesn't support a belief in a giant fairy in the sky.
Let me ask you two questions.
Firstly if the bible has been translated and mis-translated many times over as you state and obviously was never written down for generations after actual event happen, what makes you think any of it ever happened at all? and what makes you think it happened the way you think it did? Maybe the true stories were mistranslated and Chinese whispered down to non existence.
Secondly, if religion didn't exist and we didn't have an idea of the concept of god then how would you have know what your revelation really was. Did God talk directly to you? If he did how do you know you were not hallucinating, , perhaps bought about by intense desire to understand the unknown? How do you know that you have not gone crazy?
Why don't you describe your revelation to us and let us see if what you believe happened to you would have convinced any of us.
@houcemtrigun
One thing I can tell you for sure is IF there was/is a god and he is a benevolent omnipotent being then by the very fact that he wants you to worship and pray to him makes him needy and this is a flaw and makes him imperfect. In fact it would be ridiculous for us to think that IF he existed he would want us to do anything to show our love for him, why would he care if women showed their hair, what difference to him would a beard make. It's ridiculous to make up a deity and then put values on him like if he was some sort of cult leader or film star to be worshiped. Makes no sense.
And you ARE a Muslim because you were born one (brought up as one) whether you like it or not. So what if another Muslim prays in a different way. Your parents were Muslims and you were indoctrinated into the Muslim faith from birth. You never made a conscious decision to be a Muslim, it was made for you, even if you don't realize it. Even if you became a Christian or Jew it would still mean that you were starting from a position of a firm belief in God that was indoctrinated into you.
Houcemtrigun,
It's good to hear your viewpoint; I am tired of hearing the same old reasons by stupid Christians for religion. So no matter how mean ppl treat you on this board and in life, thanks for speaking up. Variety is a good thing.
Now, about your understanding of atheism; it is insulting. From your quote below, I understand that you see Atheists as people who have something inside of them that yearn to worship the one true god but don't do so because they don't want to sound stupid or illogical.
Nothing, at all, could be further from the truth. That's like me saying you must have a homosexual love for Muhammad if you want to worship him.
(I am not saying this; I know better. This is an example to show you how outrageous what you said about Atheists is to us.)
A major part of Atheism is the LACK of having irrational feelings. If you insist on projecting your feelings onto atheists then you will forever be an insulting idiot to us that is at the same time to be laughed at for having a large amount of ignorance.
Since you have 'feelings' we wouldn't dream of telling you to stop feeling them. Seriously... No Atheist I've ever known would want you to stop worshiping whomever you feel you have to worship. We know it is pointless...
But the second you cross the line and tell anyone else they must worship the same god as you, that makes you EVIL, and many of us feel that is a real "Sin," like murder or being a slavemaster. (I personally feel it is exactly the same as being a slavemaster.)
Anyway, your idea that "Humans need to believe in something" is simply flawed to the core. Once you can accept that only PEOPLE WHO FEEL IRRATIONAL THINGS need to believe in something, and others don't, you won't be so insulting to those of us who don't.
Lastly, could you further comment on your words: "Our logic makes us believe there is a creator all the time." -This sounds so silly & backwards to me I'd really like some clarification, and to see if you are at all serious in this statement.
It's good to hear your viewpoint; I am tired of hearing the same old reasons by stupid Christians for religion. So no matter how mean ppl treat you on this board and in life, thanks for speaking up. Variety is a good thing.
Now, about your understanding of atheism; it is insulting. From your quote below, I understand that you see Atheists as people who have something inside of them that yearn to worship the one true god but don't do so because they don't want to sound stupid or illogical.
Nothing, at all, could be further from the truth. That's like me saying you must have a homosexual love for Muhammad if you want to worship him.
(I am not saying this; I know better. This is an example to show you how outrageous what you said about Atheists is to us.)
A major part of Atheism is the LACK of having irrational feelings. If you insist on projecting your feelings onto atheists then you will forever be an insulting idiot to us that is at the same time to be laughed at for having a large amount of ignorance.
Since you have 'feelings' we wouldn't dream of telling you to stop feeling them. Seriously... No Atheist I've ever known would want you to stop worshiping whomever you feel you have to worship. We know it is pointless...
But the second you cross the line and tell anyone else they must worship the same god as you, that makes you EVIL, and many of us feel that is a real "Sin," like murder or being a slavemaster. (I personally feel it is exactly the same as being a slavemaster.)
Anyway, your idea that "Humans need to believe in something" is simply flawed to the core. Once you can accept that only PEOPLE WHO FEEL IRRATIONAL THINGS need to believe in something, and others don't, you won't be so insulting to those of us who don't.
Lastly, could you further comment on your words: "Our logic makes us believe there is a creator all the time." -This sounds so silly & backwards to me I'd really like some clarification, and to see if you are at all serious in this statement.
No see, clearly I didn't say it was UN-explainable. I said it couldn't be explained by anything else, other than God is real. There's a difference there.
Kind of like if I told you that electricity is real, and you asked me to prove it - and then I shocked the shit out of you w/ a live wire. Now people might be able to come up with different explanations as to why you were jumping around with your hair on fire, but there would be no denying that electricity is real.
And just because you've not experienced it, doesn't make it NOT true.
Plus - you said "everyone" including yourself were actually agnostic, and didn't know shit. So which is it? Is God a big fairytale, or do you really not know? Because if God is a fairytale to you, then there's no denying that you're an atheist, and not agnostic. But I can tell you that there are no doubts in my mind that God is real. Can I explain my experience and cause you to believe? Absolutely not. Otherwise everyone on the planet would believe already. Personal revelation is the key, and real truth is not subject to a belief. What is true will remain true whether people believe it or not.
First of all, I am sorry if anything came through as an insult. English is my 3rd/4th language. So please bear with me.
This is definitely not how I define an atheist. I said that per definition, a god is something you believe in. It can be a rock, it can be the sun, it can be money and it can be a thought like "there is no such thing as a God".
What I meant is that people tend to read every ebook under the sun if it's about making money online and spend the most part of their life chasing happiness in life, but don't spend enough time searching for truth about the existance of a creator, a god. I am 100% that anybody who honest with himself and take the time to look for the truth examining all the possibilities, will reach the truth. It's just that we don't see the immediate reward in spending 10 years searching for the truth.
I think I formulated my though incorrectly. Here is what I mean:
We tend to link creations to their creators. Like when you see a car or a piece of art, the though it could have been created by chance doesn't cross your mind even if you don't know who made it(it's at least my case). But when it comes to human beings or animals... why do you have to think that it all was created by chance? I think the last 4 or so generations have been the victim of a brain washing. That's the only way I can explain it. The Darwinism has reached this level of popularity because it served political purposes. I am not saying that there is no evolution, just that there is no Darwinism.
There are a couple of things that need to be clarified here:
1. I am not enforcing anybody to be a Muslim. Everyone is free to believe what he wants. In the end, everyone will be held responsible for himself. So, in that regard, I am just discussing. Nothing more nothing else.
2. If I think that the only right way is the way I am following and that if you don't follow it, you will end up in hell, which would mean the total loss, wouldn't it be evil NOT to at least show you the way. Forcing people to follow a certain path is evil!
This is definitely not how I define an atheist. I said that per definition, a god is something you believe in. It can be a rock, it can be the sun, it can be money and it can be a thought like "there is no such thing as a God".
What I meant is that people tend to read every ebook under the sun if it's about making money online and spend the most part of their life chasing happiness in life, but don't spend enough time searching for truth about the existance of a creator, a god. I am 100% that anybody who honest with himself and take the time to look for the truth examining all the possibilities, will reach the truth. It's just that we don't see the immediate reward in spending 10 years searching for the truth.
Let's elaborate on this one. Could you enumerate what you see as logical in believing there is no god.
I think I formulated my though incorrectly. Here is what I mean:
We tend to link creations to their creators. Like when you see a car or a piece of art, the though it could have been created by chance doesn't cross your mind even if you don't know who made it(it's at least my case). But when it comes to human beings or animals... why do you have to think that it all was created by chance? I think the last 4 or so generations have been the victim of a brain washing. That's the only way I can explain it. The Darwinism has reached this level of popularity because it served political purposes. I am not saying that there is no evolution, just that there is no Darwinism.
There are a couple of things that need to be clarified here:
1. I am not enforcing anybody to be a Muslim. Everyone is free to believe what he wants. In the end, everyone will be held responsible for himself. So, in that regard, I am just discussing. Nothing more nothing else.
2. If I think that the only right way is the way I am following and that if you don't follow it, you will end up in hell, which would mean the total loss, wouldn't it be evil NOT to at least show you the way. Forcing people to follow a certain path is evil!
You mean he can't? :crap:
And I'm betting you think the world is actually flat? And people that talk to other people on them new fangled cell devices are actually using witchcraft?
That's freaky, man. I read his post and immediately thought about Uri Geller and the spoon. Is god screwing with my mind?
GreeLee
Faulty data/input (your senses interpreting things incorrectly) or your brain processing the data incorrectly means faulty output.
Like BluuueJammm mentioned, just because Uri Geller says he bends spoons with his mind, and then goes on to prove this to you does not mean that it's actually true.
I don't know you, or your story, but I assume it's something along the lines of:
1. I had a problem.
2. I prayed and asked god to show himself.
3. Problem solved.
Conclusion: God solved my problem.
Right?
Your faith is based on your translation, or lack thereof? The historical evidence for the accuracy of the Christian Bible is very strong. So strong that it would be faulty reasoning to base your entire life on this - I am not claiming that either is true in this post - simply pointing out that the historical evidence is such that it would be worth examining very closely.
God is poor? - is that what they say?
"they are rich"? - who?, the Jews?
I do not recall God fighting Jacob and losing. There was an Angel that crippled Jacob - but that is not a 'loss'.
But I will agree with you - the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is different than the God of Islam. I learned that listening to Mosab Hassan Yousef. You can say the God of Islam is the real God - that is your choice. I am simply seeking clarification to your post.
Just because a document is accurate to the original text does not make it true. If you choose to follow, at least make certain it is 'true' - not that it is simply 'accurate'. Many religions have "tradition" for authentication. Unless this thing that "only the Muslims developed" is different than the "tradition" used by other religions.
Either way you believe is your faith. I am asking these questions and pointing out these things to understand better where you are coming from because I know very little about Islam.
That's freaky, man. I read his post and immediately thought about Uri Geller and the spoon. Is god screwing with my mind?
GreeLee
Faulty data/input (your senses interpreting things incorrectly) or your brain processing the data incorrectly means faulty output.
Like BluuueJammm mentioned, just because Uri Geller says he bends spoons with his mind, and then goes on to prove this to you does not mean that it's actually true.
I don't know you, or your story, but I assume it's something along the lines of:
1. I had a problem.
2. I prayed and asked god to show himself.
3. Problem solved.
Conclusion: God solved my problem.
Right?
Nope, not even close. And how clairvoyant of you to interpret my data without even knowing what it is. The irony of that strikes me as somewhat hilarious.
It's ok though, if you ever open your mind up past your preconceived beliefs - and what others are telling you, then you too may have a chance at revelation. Believe me, the world is not flat. It may sound crazy to you now, but the truth is the truth.
Lol, it was you that said you saw something that could only be explained by god, you obviously have no idea how ridiculous that is.
Perhaps you should tell us what it was that happened to you?
I know, I know, it sounds crazy to you that the world is actually "round", but it's true. You may have never personally been into outer space to see it, but it's true. Even without going into outer-space, the evidence is all around you if you know how to look for it.
- And it doesn't really matter what happened to me. Belief comes with a personal revelation, not that of someone else. I could tell you that I went to heaven and came back, but you wouldn't believe it. And I can't really blame you for that. But what you believe doesn't change actual truth.
Logical: We all evolved in a way that physical evidence supports.
Illogical: Omnipotent fairy in the sky that no one can agree about made us.
Here is your problem... You seem to think life is an unlikely thing when in fact it is the most likely possible thing to exist, and can be demonstrated in a lab.
I think the brainwashing has gone on for at least 600,000 years now if not a whole million. -The bible and all other religious books to date have a very similar trait: They sound a lot like a set of rules that the powerful people would have the stupid people follow.
I don't know what political purpose you are suggesting, but Abiogenesis and Evolution are factual and completely repeatable... Every single day a scientist somewhere can show very strong evidence that they exist and are real phenomena, but since the only "proof" the religious are willing to accept is to go back in time and watch these things happen personally, and follow it up through to today, then there is no hope for the religious to be rational.
How can you not see the EVIL in that argument? HITLER MADE THAT EXACT ARGUMENT!!!
There will be another explanation to what happened other than 'god did it', you just don't want to admit it to yourself, or anyone else. You want to be 'special' good for you, but you must know deep down that you are deluding yourself.
No, I'm not claiming to be special. It's happened to a lot more people than me. And I can personally understand why you would want and even need to try and explain God away. And that's fine. My experience just prevents me from even beginning to follow your logic. Yes, I know that you've walked as far as you could possibly walk and you have not personally experienced any curvature in the earth. But there's not much you could do to convince someone that's been on the space shuttle that the earth is flat. Maybe they were hallucinating when they "thought" they were in space, that's true. But the point is, there's enough other evidence that backs up their "hallucination" that you'll never convince them that the world is flat. sorry.
It just sounds like you don't want to talk about it. Maybe explaining your personal revelation could lead to an atheist here converting back to the good ways because they might be more open to having a revelation...you should want that no?
Having an experience unfortunately doesn't mean anything until we can figure out a lot more about the human mind. You can't prove an experience, but science can't prove that it exists chemically...stalemate we're working on. Science has consistently been bringing in proof and sensible theories with evidence. Religion has brought...an idea perverted and corrupted over time (and the other half that teaches good morals...mostly).
"Personal Revelations" could just be hallucinations and/or intense will power to see something. The thing that sucks about it is that it feels real, but like dreams, it's not real.
^^^
Exactly what can science prove. That we are chemically mechanical bodies walking around powered by a brain. That about it.
We haven't even explored our own oceans (this is year 2011). Yet we claim to know how the universe came to existence, and then we call ourselves smart.
You can rationalize all you want, and pretend to be reasonable. But the really is. You either believe in a blind guiding system or an intelligent one.
If you find a old rosetta stone in the desert. Do you assume its wind and sand made (a blind guiding system). or based on our knowledge of how working systems come to be, assume a builder was involved.
Exactly what can science prove. That we are chemically mechanical bodies walking around powered by a brain. That about it.
We haven't even explored our own oceans (this is year 2011). Yet we claim to know how the universe came to existence, and then we call ourselves smart.
You can rationalize all you want, and pretend to be reasonable. But the really is. You either believe in a blind guiding system or an intelligent one.
If you find a old rosetta stone in the desert. Do you assume its wind and sand made (a blind guiding system). or based on our knowledge of how working systems come to be, assume a builder was involved.
No doubt. I know two other such people; One was my very best childhood friend, who said the same thing. In fact he was SURE the angel Gabriel "saved his life" when he was in a car wreck once... He had such specific details about the pearly gates that it was really freaky listening to him explain it. Of course he was a catholic, and all of these details sounded very much like the catholic version of heaven.
When it happens to other people, they usually always describe their own religions' interpretation of said events.
No one ever nearly dies and says "I went to the afterlife and I didn't recognize anything at all.. It kinda resembled a purple neon strip club with green lasers shooting out of a black hole for eternity..." -They all describe things that make sense to them. Images they might have imagined of heaven while they were alive.
Nor does a Catholic ever have a near-death experience and come back saying "I went to heaven and by golly, we catholics were wrong! God is clearly a Muslim/Baptist/Anarchist!"
This tells me that the most likely explanation is that as we start to die we simply retreat into our brain with no outside stimulus, and whatever memories are already in there are replayed in a dreamlike situation.
Seems perfectly logical, completely explains everyone's similar accounts of the afterlife, and it doesn't require any omnipotent fairies whatsoever.
It's simply Occhams' razor.
Atheists do not need to explain anything away that isn't here. The burden of proof is on you to explain his existence.
Here's a question. Did God's will allow Adam to eat the forbidden fruit, or was it Adam's will that did it?
... whoo hoo here we go into the topic of premonition...