Actually, the Ten comandments and Moses Law did fall out of the sky.
What scientific errors in the bible are you concerned with? Leave evolution and Creationism out, since they are both theories anyway.
Ah, Religion - My Short Story
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Actually, the Ten comandments and Moses Law did fall out of the sky.
What scientific errors in the bible are you concerned with? Leave evolution and Creationism out, since they are both theories anyway.
First off, you addressed my point by avoiding it. You say the 10 Commandments fell out of the sky...ok so God CAN just make his word fall from the sky...why not do that for the Bible? Wouldn't that be a MUCH better way of doing it? God should know that man is going to screw things up along the way.
How about all of the mythical gods who share an extremely similar life and death as Jesus? Are all those stories just a big set up for Jesus, who is the 1 true story out of them all?
Also you can't say "Leave Creationism out"...that's a cop-out. I won't leave evolution out of the argument. It's classified as a theory yes, but the evidence backs up the hell out of it. It makes sense that evolution happened. It doesn't make sense that if you don't worship 1 human, you're burning for eternity.
Like I said I'm not all about ripping on people for their beliefs, but I saw this meme and while it's clearly a joke...
God I hope not (irony noted)
Listen, as with anything, when you've suddenly seen the light and had the rose colored glasses ripped off, your world is suddenly an ugly offensive place. This is normal.
Once you've gotten over your anger and have calmed down, start focusing on learning, reasoning, and questioning.
Once you're satisfied, then you can start to spread the gospel of reason.
First off, you addressed my point by avoiding it. You say the 10 Commandments fell out of the sky...ok so God CAN just make his word fall from the sky...why not do that for the Bible? Wouldn't that be a MUCH better way of doing it? God should know that man is going to screw things up along the way.
How about all of the mythical gods who share an extremely similar life and death as Jesus? Are all those stories just a big set up for Jesus, who is the 1 true story out of them all?
Also you can't say "Leave Creationism out"...that's a cop-out. I won't leave evolution out of the argument. It's classified as a theory yes, but the evidence backs up the hell out of it. It makes sense that evolution happened. It doesn't make sense that if you don't worship 1 human, you're burning for eternity.
Like I said I'm not all about ripping on people for their beliefs, but I saw this meme and while it's clearly a joke...
Why did you get so defensive all of a sudden? Let's talk science. The bible has a whole 2 chapters dedicated to the creation of Earth. Everything else that creationists talk about is just theory based on their findings NOT THE BIBLE. That's why I say leave evolution and creation out of it. The creation story in the bible is more of an ADHD overview, then it goes on to important things.
I will give you this, creationists who say the world is only 10,000 years old are idiots. If they REALLY read the bible, they would see that the Earth was created before time. Making it probably as old as Earth Science says it is. Also, there is the whole thing about Satan ruling on Earth before he was Satan and the fact that the World in the opening of the Bible was in a destroyed state.
See where I am coming from? When arguing creationism vs. evolution, you arent really arguing about the bible, more man's opinion of what they think the bible meant. Talking science is fine; like the fact that Leviticus says because the life of every creature is its blood. That is why I have said to the Israelites, "You must not eat the blood of any creature, because the life of every creature is its blood; anyone who eats it must be cut off."
Comon sense today, but it wasnt till the 1600's that it was established as scientific fact that life is tuely in the blood. I forget the guys name who made the discovery, but can find it if you like.
Or there is this Isaiah 40:22 "He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in."
Two things here: First, the bible was written at the time when everyone else thought the world was flat, yet the bible says God sits above the CIRCLE of the Earth, calling the earth round thousands of years before the Earth was proven round.
Second, He stretches out the heavens. We know today that the universe is always growing and expanding, something that wasnt learned until the past few decades - around 3000 years after this was written.
I disagree. Truly, we are all Agnostic. Every single human being on earth. Why? Cause we don't know shit. Admitting you don't know shit is the first step to not being an asshole. After that you can have your own ideas and what feels right but none of us can ever be anything other that literally Agnostic.
Its very simple, you have said that you are OPEN to everything and that's the best way to be.
Organised religion is and has always been a blight on this planet. Believing in something does not have to be about religion, books and the spoutings of megalomaniacal preachers, it should be from your own personal journey.
When it comes to religions it is obvious that there can only be ONE true religion (as in if its the absolute truth then all the other thousands of religions have to be false), then think about the fact that 99.9999% of all people in organised religion are the religion of their parents. This is not about what they believe but what they have been indoctrinated into from a young age. No free thought or choice there.
Please do yourself a big favor and go to Youtube and watch as many videos of Christopher Hitchens debating with people and it will open your eyes to the evil (yes I said it) of organised religion and how to debate anyone of organised religion and win every time (well you'll never win with closed minded people, but you will end up coming away with a feeling that you have). The guy is very very eloquent and highly intelligent and has kicked many people's ass in debates about the evils of religion (including Tony Blair who is a master speaker and a devout Catholic).
Open you mind to all possibilities but question everything
Organised religion is and has always been a blight on this planet. Believing in something does not have to be about religion, books and the spoutings of megalomaniacal preachers, it should be from your own personal journey.
When it comes to religions it is obvious that there can only be ONE true religion (as in if its the absolute truth then all the other thousands of religions have to be false), then think about the fact that 99.9999% of all people in organised religion are the religion of their parents. This is not about what they believe but what they have been indoctrinated into from a young age. No free thought or choice there.
Please do yourself a big favor and go to Youtube and watch as many videos of Christopher Hitchens debating with people and it will open your eyes to the evil (yes I said it) of organised religion and how to debate anyone of organised religion and win every time (well you'll never win with closed minded people, but you will end up coming away with a feeling that you have). The guy is very very eloquent and highly intelligent and has kicked many people's ass in debates about the evils of religion (including Tony Blair who is a master speaker and a devout Catholic).
Open you mind to all possibilities but question everything
I wrote the book on this one. As the product of an Evangelical Christian family myself, it's tricky. Here's my advice (and really this can be applied to any family as you're all going to have heated issues):
Pick out the things you love about them and the things you have in common. Focus on that. Avoid the other stuff at all cost. (after your initial coming out, that is. I think it's important to be true to yourself first) Life is too short to squabble with your family over stuff that really makes no difference in the long run.
Of course if/when you have children and grandma decides to beat the name of the lord into them, come back to me and we'll have a few more things to talk about.
Heh, I've been though this. I was raised in a private christian school my whole life... with intent/pressure on conforming. It worked, for a while.
There are great points in this thread, but if you're seriously gonna sit there and attack your family over this shit, I think you're an idiot. What do you really value? Religous or not, you have to look at the bigger picture. IMO, confronting the fam, talking with the pastor (unless you would like debate/more insight for yourself and your own beliefs), etc... isn't worth the uprising.
The judeo christianity fallacy that started all this for me, was the single imprint that perpetuates the belief of yearning for a power outside of one's self.
It's everyones personal journey to find out in thier own way, and that is what's removed being raised in this manner. However, I don't condemn my parents or anyone for that matter, they did the best they could/knew how. (you need to be free of that btw, regardless if the circumstances are different)
edit: I just noticed you mentioned the fam is trying to continuously convert you back. I don't have experience/advice for that one, I would only say that be sure they know you love and care for them, and just let them know you are on your own path to self discovery. "if it doesn't work out, remember I can always be born again." haha ;-)
There are great points in this thread, but if you're seriously gonna sit there and attack your family over this shit, I think you're an idiot. What do you really value? Religous or not, you have to look at the bigger picture. IMO, confronting the fam, talking with the pastor (unless you would like debate/more insight for yourself and your own beliefs), etc... isn't worth the uprising.
The judeo christianity fallacy that started all this for me, was the single imprint that perpetuates the belief of yearning for a power outside of one's self.
It's everyones personal journey to find out in thier own way, and that is what's removed being raised in this manner. However, I don't condemn my parents or anyone for that matter, they did the best they could/knew how. (you need to be free of that btw, regardless if the circumstances are different)
edit: I just noticed you mentioned the fam is trying to continuously convert you back. I don't have experience/advice for that one, I would only say that be sure they know you love and care for them, and just let them know you are on your own path to self discovery. "if it doesn't work out, remember I can always be born again." haha ;-)
Religion is destructive. It causes wars. In that regard, fuck religion.
I laugh at anyone who has religious beliefs. What you believe in is likely to be determined by your geographical location. And every religion thinks that theirs is right. How can one determine that? What if I told you that I pray to a flying spaghetti monster. Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster How can you prove that my flying spaghetti monster god doesn't exist? I mean all you have to do is just believe in it.
I laugh at anyone who has religious beliefs. What you believe in is likely to be determined by your geographical location. And every religion thinks that theirs is right. How can one determine that? What if I told you that I pray to a flying spaghetti monster. Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster How can you prove that my flying spaghetti monster god doesn't exist? I mean all you have to do is just believe in it.
This is exactly why its not just ok to say live and let live and everyone is entitled to their belief. It's not their belief I have a problem with.
Their religions INTERFERE with the living of our lives. If they didn't:
a) try to convert me ad infinitum (in most of the major organised religions they HAVE to do this)
b) didn't try to teach my children their beliefs in schools
c) didn't get any subsidies or preferential tax treatment
d) didn't get to directly influence lawmaking
e) didn't cause instability and wars, thus putting my family at direct risk
f) so much more
I would say live and let live, but no, fuck it, I won't and don't have to put up with this shit anymore. Keep your fucking beliefs to yourself and we would be cool. I don't try to push my atheism on you so stop doing it to me and my loved ones!!!!!
A lot of this thread seems to revolve around how religious people act, especially our families.
I am 100% atheist and I've been through the thought processes of most people here, I was raised completely catholic and all of my family are still religious.
However
What provokes a shitload of thought in me is... Would the world be able to handle if 100%, no even just 10% of it's population actually thought freely? What if societies ways of controlling us didn't affect almost everyone?
What if religion is a good thing because society NEEDS SHEEP?
And in the western world it's not just about religion any more. Most people here are entrepreneurs and probably understand how hard it is to go against the grain. Society has 101 ways of keeping you in line.
Right now I actually think all this manipulation is a good thing. Those who rise above it (and I think of myself as one), deserve to be free. Those who do not, deserve to be controlled.
You can't have a society where everyone is unpredictable. Most people need to act in a predictable way, and the entrepreneurs and true free thinkers will find a way to get society to move ahead anyway. If 99% of the population are just sheep, that's not a bad thing.
I am 100% atheist and I've been through the thought processes of most people here, I was raised completely catholic and all of my family are still religious.
However
What provokes a shitload of thought in me is... Would the world be able to handle if 100%, no even just 10% of it's population actually thought freely? What if societies ways of controlling us didn't affect almost everyone?
What if religion is a good thing because society NEEDS SHEEP?
And in the western world it's not just about religion any more. Most people here are entrepreneurs and probably understand how hard it is to go against the grain. Society has 101 ways of keeping you in line.
Right now I actually think all this manipulation is a good thing. Those who rise above it (and I think of myself as one), deserve to be free. Those who do not, deserve to be controlled.
You can't have a society where everyone is unpredictable. Most people need to act in a predictable way, and the entrepreneurs and true free thinkers will find a way to get society to move ahead anyway. If 99% of the population are just sheep, that's not a bad thing.
Why is everyone blaming religion for wars or death.
No atheist ever mentions the fact that atheist communist Russia and China both killed millions of their own people. This didnt happen that long ago. Dont even get me started on the brain washing.
All I know, is that most Christians just turned the other chick. As they were torchered to death. Sent to Siberian prisons. Lost families.
You young Americans really don't know what fuck is going in this world. You should be thanking your Bible thumbing ancestors for such a wonderful place.
No atheist ever mentions the fact that atheist communist Russia and China both killed millions of their own people. This didnt happen that long ago. Dont even get me started on the brain washing.
All I know, is that most Christians just turned the other chick. As they were torchered to death. Sent to Siberian prisons. Lost families.
You young Americans really don't know what fuck is going in this world. You should be thanking your Bible thumbing ancestors for such a wonderful place.
Sorry but you are 100% wrong, yes atheists have done bad things, but they didn't do it in the name of atheism, because of atheism or because they are atheists. This is a very old and predictable argument and is the same as saying that because there are some pedophile Catholic priests therefore all Catholics are pedophiles.
People have died and do still every day IN THE NAME of religion i.e. as a direct result of religion by people of religion and to people of another religion (or not). I am not talking about a country to country war I am talking about a next door neighbor killing his neighbors child just because he is of a different religion. And how does he justify it? Because the bible (or koran or torah) tells him its what HIS god wants. What atrocities has your religion purported in history in the name of god and how many people have died and suffered at the hands of your religious leaders?
YOU should remember that it was Bible thumping ancestors that burned people at the stake and tortured people in the not too distant past all because they wouldn't believe in THEIR god.
Morality is not something that has come from the bible, it is something that was around way before then and it will be around way after and you are fooling yourself if you think otherwise.
I, and many other people here, are not either young or American, however who cares what age you are and what country you are from?
If you erase our history and remove religion and start again I would bet that our world would be a much better place by now.
^^^
You're an idiot, I personally knew people the were sent to prison and even had their finger nails pulled out. If they didn't renounce God.
Now go see whos feeding the worlds starving children.
You're an idiot, I personally knew people the were sent to prison and even had their finger nails pulled out. If they didn't renounce God.
Now go see whos feeding the worlds starving children.
Again...there's no sense to this. You can't just say "Ah that was just an ADHD overview of how we actually came to be, he didn't feel like leaving us any tidbits of knowledge for once we were smart enough to understand." The Bible is God's word, I'm not sure how you can classify yourself as a Christian and say that's not true.
Again, the only reason you say that is because we have proven that the world is older than 10,000 years. The story of the resurrection of Jesus is just as outlandish as believing the world was created in 7 days...it's all part of the same book.
If you believe the Earth is older than 10,000 years, you must at least somewhat trust the merit of science. And by doing that, you'd trust enough to believe that Earth was created billions of years after the universe came into existence. Saying the "Earth was created before time" is just a philosophical trinket to explain that 'time' didn't start until somebody was there to observe it (humans).
And this is from your Bible...
Man created the Bible. The Bible IS the world of God. The Bible is Christianity. Man = Christianity.
We haven't proved the Bible to be true and accurate yet, so quoting it is useless in my opinion. Also you're just pulling comparisons, that which you could do with many religious texts I'm sure.
Again, just drawing conclusions here. Ancient humans worshiped the Sun because that's what watched over them. They saw the sun was a big circle. Maybe they thought in a perfect heavenly world, the Earth could maybe be a big circle too? You can have a flat circle.
And stretching out the heavens like a canopy...I don't really know how else to convey my point. It's just making a metaphor fit how you want it to.
How many prophecies in the Bible are wrong? I've looked it up myself, verses that declare the end of the world is coming soon, coming before our generation has passed, etc. We're still here, and if the world is destroyed it's going to most likely be because of us, or something in space. Space, that we can see, observe, travel in, and study.
Can you at least acknowledge all the violence and death that has come as a direct result of religion?
Not saying all wars are caused by religion, but you can't deny that a big share of them have had components of religion tied in with it. Even looking at today's war on terrorism, there seems to be a great divide between Christian and Muslim fundamentalism.
And even not looking at wars, but general violence relating to religion. Abortion clinics getting bombed, gays being murdered, synagogues being vandalized. This list can go on forever.
I do. But I think people look past human nature to much.
In any circumstance, humans will always find a way to kill or hurt each other. I'm tired of people pointing out religious fanatics without looking at the other side. Its called human nature, and that will never change.
I've seen the other side, as I was born in Siberia. You dont know terror like that. Trust me. Thank God I'm here now, lucky I guess.