Bitcoin Central Is Now Licensed To Operate As A Bank
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Price != purchasing power.
They converted gold into debt notes. Gold was money.
This doesn't make any sense to me.
Inflation - Mises Wiki
Jewelry is not a substitute for numismatic gold in exchange. Regardless, I am not defending gold. I don't give a shit.
That said, I would argue gold is the least likely good to be seen as non-precious and non-money of all the goods in the world.
No, no, no. This is the planner fallacy.
Because in the long run, control doesn't work. Markets work. It's not an ideological issue, it's a scientific issue.
The control/planner mentality is based on a fallacy. It creates the impression of control like democracy creates the impression of fairness.
Mises debunked socialism like this. Again, this isn't some ideological thing, what you're proposing fails every time it is tried because it is inherently irrational.
I thought about it. Now you know how I feel when I make 90% of my posts.
Can't trade with it. Legal tender. Any profit realized trading in gold is considered a capital gain, subjtect to tax.
It's not about owning gold, it's about being able to trade freely with it. Good luck paying your taxes in gold bro.
Again, capital gains.
Gold is the only financial asset that is not simultaneously someone elses liability. When you add capital gains, you create a liability on gold.
Always the market. Anything else implies the use of violence.
The current game is designed to make sure you can never win or achieve your potential unless you're plugged in at the right levels, in the right way. It is inherently unjust, economically irrational, and inevitably self-imploding.
Don't assume all games are equal if you know the rules. Some games stack the deck against you, and knowing that doesn't help you sleep better at night.
Good point. Capital gains is the biggest issue. But I've thought of a few more issues like for gold ETFs there's a yearly expense fee (0.4% I think). There's also the stock broker charge.. even though it's very small. And for physical gold/silver these gold companies charge an arm and leg just to purchase the damn stuff.. on top of the actual price of gold. I can't even imagine how difficult it must be to try to sell your gold.. I highly doubt these gold companies would buy it back at market value.
Ya but if all the above issues were not there you basically could trade freely with it even if it wasn't the official currency. But I take your point.
dude, if your tribe is begging you for gold molar crowns for their rotted teeth, they'll be demanding you acquire gold at whatever cost.
I am sitting here thinking, and I definitely wouldn't use Bitcoin to hold a cash balance.
I wouldn't use it as an investment.
I might use it as an anonymity coupon to buy black market goods. I don't use any black market goods, but if I did I guess this is a good spot to use it.
If you've got money, the highest return you can get is re-investing in yourself.
I am always puzzled by successful entrepreneurs who sit on cash balances.
If I did need to sit on a cash balance, it wouldn't be with something like Bitcoin which has maybe, 50,000 (?) trading partners worldwide.
I wouldn't use it as an investment.
I might use it as an anonymity coupon to buy black market goods. I don't use any black market goods, but if I did I guess this is a good spot to use it.
If you've got money, the highest return you can get is re-investing in yourself.
I am always puzzled by successful entrepreneurs who sit on cash balances.
If I did need to sit on a cash balance, it wouldn't be with something like Bitcoin which has maybe, 50,000 (?) trading partners worldwide.
Only scanned the thread so I could have misread but some people do seem to have the delusion that inflation is always a bad thing. Sure if you have 20% inflation and a shrinking an economy then that's not exactly great for the average person but if you have a large increase in demand in your economy and your economy grows then you should be perfectly happy with low levels of inflation. Generally the Bank of England (UK wide) aims for 2%CPI as a target. Interestingly they would also usually prefer 3% inflation than 1% because 1% likely means that the economy is under-performing.
Interestingly I saw an article in the FT a while back that said the BoE will be including house prices in the CPI next year?
Bitcoin does seem pretty unstable. Not sure I personally believe in investing heavily in gold though.
Oh to those that think a government can solve all the problems, I think your arguments are fairly invalid. Some kind of market system where many people contribute to the economy unwittingly (like the mixed market system currently) will always be far more efficient for the same reason that we all split test our pages (human guessing doesn't work). I personally only believe in using the government to correct failure (environmental etc) which i'm sure many of you on here won't believe in.
Interestingly I saw an article in the FT a while back that said the BoE will be including house prices in the CPI next year?
Bitcoin does seem pretty unstable. Not sure I personally believe in investing heavily in gold though.
Oh to those that think a government can solve all the problems, I think your arguments are fairly invalid. Some kind of market system where many people contribute to the economy unwittingly (like the mixed market system currently) will always be far more efficient for the same reason that we all split test our pages (human guessing doesn't work). I personally only believe in using the government to correct failure (environmental etc) which i'm sure many of you on here won't believe in.
Guerilla, you haven't even slightly explained why BTC isn't an alternative to fiat.
Your concerns aren't even slightly killers. And you're wrong, no one wants Bitcoin to be the answer. People just understand that this is all coming down and there is going to be an answer that doesn't involve government. And Bitcoing is the one with the most momentum. But everything else you're saying is just conjecture, you're asking us to rely on the fact that you've spent a fair amount of time studying money as proof of your statements rather than takinga nyone through a well thoughtout reason why you are even correct.
I shall be the Yoda to your Skywalker as I say, "a belief in markets is not strong in this one." If you believe that markets exist and motivate creative people to solve difficult problems, then I'd be curious as to what your laundry list of BTC problems are. I bet there are people working to solve them. If your problem is volatility... what's your point. Volatility is solved with more people entering a market and other derivative markets. If volatility continues to be a problem with bitcoins, then there could be an alternative digital currency that's released that solves the problem with a bond market or that creates currency at a predictable rate and only when the market tells it to. BTC is capitalized at more than $100 million. Are you going to be a naysayer when it's at 1 billion? 10 billion? 100 billion? This is a grand experiment, and the reason you haven't convinced libertarians or anarchists that BTC isn't the answer is because you still haven't given any reasons why it's not the answer or an answer.
For fiat to work, it needs legal tender. BTC doesn't have legal tender advantage.
lol
What specifically was conjecture?
I don't recall making an appeal to authority. Can you please point out where I did so?
Uh, ok.
I've already explained them. Mattseh and I just discussed another issue with BTC on skype about 30 mins ago.
Don't confuse being for markets, with assuming markets can make anything work. Markets work within the framework of objective reality, they do not define and redefine objective reality.
Or put differently, I am libertarian, but I am not libertine. I'll fight for your right to stick a glass Coca Cola bBottle up your asshole, while wearing a pantless clown costume and break dancing on YouTube, but don't expect me to join your freakshow anytime soon.
How much do you know about BTC?
I don't care if I haven't convinced anyone. I really, really don't. I'd like to think I am not a petty man, but there is a certain pleasure associated with being correct.
Go buy some BTC then get back to me in 5 years with a report on how it turned out.
Are you really just giving me the definition of fiat? What's your point? BTC doesn't have the "legal tender advantage" because that's not an advantage. Fiat money is money that derives its value from government regulation and backing. BTC doesn't have that. That's why it's not fiat. That doesn't mean it doesn't work. You know what else isn't fiat? Gold. You aren't making a point.
You're saying that BTC won't work because it won't work. You haven't asserted any valid reasons why it won't work. Do you know of a money experiment that has resembled btc in the past that failed? Do you know some economic principle that isn't Keynesian that indicates to you that deflationary experiments won't work? Do you think the volatility will kill BTC? What is it? Because there is a lot of momentum, and simply saying it won't work based on your internal thought experiment is neither helpful nor consistent. What will stop this momentum? Do you have some principle you can derive from early American culture that has to do with regional currencies not working? Do you have a problem with what Bitcoin is backed in? Do you think that the protocol is insecure? Do you know something about quantum computing that I don't that will destroy the protocol? You haven't cited anything. You've simply said it won't work, and that we have to wait a while to find out that you're right. Good for you! I'm excited to find out whether your prediction based on nothing is correct. And whether or not it is, is completely independent of the prediction itself. When or if it all comes tumbling down, you still will not have identified the mechanism that killed the experiment. Your just saying what popular opinion regarding Bitcoin is. Good for you! Very courageous. You and my father who doesn't know how to turn a computer on both agree. Now explain why.
Apolo 69 asked "Guerilla I'm curious to get your view, how is BTC any worse than any other fiat? At least BTC is not (as) vulnerable to stupid politicians and greedy bankers, the dollar has lost 96% of its value through printing/inflation since creation..." to which you responded, "And? You're lecturing someone who spent a fair amount of time studying money."
Maybe reading it will help you realize you never answered his question. You simply said some words at him.
Good for you.
You're not saying anything here. My question is in an experiment as large as Bitcoin, with more than $100 million flowing through it, why do you think that there isn't some person in the market working on the problems you think Bitcoin has, problems, I will point out, you still haven't articulated. Moreover, it's a bit interesting to equate fixing a problem with volatility in a currency market with being the kind of person that will shove a coca cola bottle up their rectum.
Are you incapable of having a discussion? Or are you so opposed to using your brain that you can't construct anything but over-the-top metaphors. Use your words to explain why bitcoin is stupid. I'm happy to hear you out. I am not stubborn, I like being proven wrong. It helps me become a better, more intelligent and intellectually deft person.
A lot. I've made thousands speculating on bitcoin and have worked very closely with some of Bitcoin's most important proponents. How much do you know about bitcoin?
This is like arguing creationism vs evolution. Creationists say that it's obvious that evolution isn't true because there hasn't been any transitional fossils, then evolutionists say here are some fossils. Then Creationists say, those aren't what we meant. You fail to address the fact that BTC is already working. It isn't ever going to fail. It might be replaced by something. It might give way to a better protocol. You have to define what failure looks like. If nothing else, the alternative currency experiment has been a great success. Whether BTC is the be all and end all of it is yet to be seen. But what a stupid thing to assert. It's arrogant, and pedantic. You apparently have no curiosity or imagination or real understanding of economics. You have a bunch of unfounded assertions. I bet you won't even respond to my questions above.
I find it interesting that you have personalized the discussion and are attacking me but nothing I have posted.
Why the hostility? Why be so emotional?
I've posted numerous arguments, and I am happy to argue them, but not if you're going to be hostile and insulting.
And that says it all.
Not at all. It won't work because it's incredibly unlikely to become ubiquitous. And if it became ubiquitous, it would become illegal to use as money just like gold. In which case, it would stop being ubiquitous.
I think the volatility enables people like you to make a profit on Bitcoin speculation. Bitcoin speculation is not Bitcoin as money qua money. Don't confuse the two.
Bitcoin is volatile because balances don't have to clear in the physical universe. There is legal mechanism to combat Bitcoin fraud. Indeed, because it is anonymous, it is terribly difficult (impossible?) to establish property rights without giving up your anonymity.
And what is your property right to in the end? A hash? You can't copyright it, so there is no intellectual property right protection. You can't prove you own a hash and I don't own the hash. There is no audit trail for that hash without surrendering anonymity.
My point was that he wasn't telling me anything new. I never appeal to myself as an authority. You would know that if you read my posts.
You can experiment until you're blue in the face, you're not able to change objective reality by trying over and over again.
Go jump out a window. Then get 100 million people to jump out of windows different ways.
Backwards, head first, flapping their arms, screaming at the top of their lungs. Gravity will still win each time.
I've argued with Bitcoin fanatics for years. You've already reached a conclusion about Bitcoin, and nothing I tell you will lead you to believe differently. That's why you attack me personally. Because you feel so strongly about BTC, that it's part of your identity, and anyone questioning BTC, is questioning your values and ideas directly.
I don't expect to be able to reason with you.
Look, for what it's worth, I am ok with whatever the market chooses as money. And it probably won't choose 20 monies, because exchanging is a cost, and we're economizing creatures who try to reduce cost. That means we're not going to hold balances across 20 currencies, or negotiate rates every time we make a purchase.
Bitcoin has a bunch of flaws, not least of which is the fact that by design, it can never be ubiquitous the way gold was 300 years ago, or US dollars are today.
Bitcoin also has no secondary purpose. When Federal reserve notes were introduced as currency, they were debt instruments redeemable in gold.
Bitcoin is only redeemable in whatever someone will give you for one. If it is nothing, then your Bitcoin is worthless. There is no liability attached to a Bitcoin because there is nothing on the other side of a Bitcoin.
It works the way local scrip works. It works within a narrow community, for a narrow range of goods.
Yes, you're able to exploit suckers in the speculation game because of the Ponzi nature of BTC production. I am happy for you. By exploiting suckers, you undermine the legitimacy of Bitcoin as a medium of exchange AND a store of value.
Bitcoin's irrelevant to 99.9% of the world. It's hardcore fanboys who like to start up arguments (go to any econ forum and look for the BTC threads) ostensibly to serve the dual purposes of proselytizing and validating.
I really do get tired of talking to people who don't understand economics. It's really frustrating.
Hopefully my current balance of like 0.005 BTC won't bias my opinion too much...
I see that BTC is growing in popularity in a certain social demographic. Nerds, to be precise. I think if you went to any bar in the country and started asking women what they thought of Bitcoin, you'd probably have to get into triple digits before you found one that had even heard of it.
My point is, for something like this to ever become popular (in the real sense of the word, not the front page of tech crunch kind of way), it would require a significant amount of time to change the way the masses think about money. Until then it's just some super nerdy, internet-based alternative currency that like so many other things, nerds think is revolutionary when in reality the rest of the world just doesn't care.
I see that BTC is growing in popularity in a certain social demographic. Nerds, to be precise. I think if you went to any bar in the country and started asking women what they thought of Bitcoin, you'd probably have to get into triple digits before you found one that had even heard of it.
My point is, for something like this to ever become popular (in the real sense of the word, not the front page of tech crunch kind of way), it would require a significant amount of time to change the way the masses think about money. Until then it's just some super nerdy, internet-based alternative currency that like so many other things, nerds think is revolutionary when in reality the rest of the world just doesn't care.
I travel a lot and have a decent chunk of Bitcoin, so this is great. When travelling one of the hardest things is all of the regulations and accessing money. Having an addtional bank account linked to the bitcoin network just helps me feel more security.
It's funny, Bitcoin started out with fuck all liquidity and I am slowly finding it easier to accept Bitcoin than credit card payments. The stability in the price is helping too.
I just signed up to an account @ bitcoin central.... but I've yet to see this French routing number for a bank account. It looks just like every other bitcoin exchange at the moment "send money to here with your account number in the comments"
It's funny, Bitcoin started out with fuck all liquidity and I am slowly finding it easier to accept Bitcoin than credit card payments. The stability in the price is helping too.
I just signed up to an account @ bitcoin central.... but I've yet to see this French routing number for a bank account. It looks just like every other bitcoin exchange at the moment "send money to here with your account number in the comments"
Guerilla, do you have any advice on who or what to read that would help someone understand how markets work? As in intelligent laypersons who can handle a bit of math if needed. I'm already reading up on Mises. I've always wanted a better grip on the subject but was never sure where to start, because it seems like almost everyone writing on the subject today is pissed off for one reason or another. And I really have no idea how far back into "classical" economics (Adam Smith etc.) it is necessary or desirable to go.
Alright, looks like Theory of Money and Credit might be a good place to start. Open to suggestions from Guerilla or anyone else.
All I know is, the media and government are really starting to pick up on the whole "silk road/anonymous online drug market" thing, and I don't believe that is a positive thing for the future of bitcoins.
I feel like that whole silk road market has to be crawling with Feds at this point, and we have to be leading up to some major "raids/hearings/protect the children crusades" that would ultimately affect the bitcoin marketplace? Knowing our history as of late, I don't see the U.S. Government sitting idle on this issue forever...and their "in" on the issue is the "global drug trade" thing.
Do you guys honestly believe that just because of how "advanced" this stuff is, they are not actively going to come after it? It just feels odd to me that people are putting all their faith into this, while knowing how many of our governments act.
I don't know much about bitcoins and how it all works, but when you start seeing news stories and politicians talking about it and how it always seems to be associated with "negative/problematic" issues...is there really "no way" for the marketplace to be "dealt with"? So many younger kids know about silk road at this point, there's gotta be negative events on the horizen for bitcoins IMO.
I feel like that whole silk road market has to be crawling with Feds at this point, and we have to be leading up to some major "raids/hearings/protect the children crusades" that would ultimately affect the bitcoin marketplace? Knowing our history as of late, I don't see the U.S. Government sitting idle on this issue forever...and their "in" on the issue is the "global drug trade" thing.
Do you guys honestly believe that just because of how "advanced" this stuff is, they are not actively going to come after it? It just feels odd to me that people are putting all their faith into this, while knowing how many of our governments act.
I don't know much about bitcoins and how it all works, but when you start seeing news stories and politicians talking about it and how it always seems to be associated with "negative/problematic" issues...is there really "no way" for the marketplace to be "dealt with"? So many younger kids know about silk road at this point, there's gotta be negative events on the horizen for bitcoins IMO.