greatest police badge number ever

slayerment said:
If anything it would consolidate to 2 large companies, not one (coke vs pepsi, microsoft vs apple, etc). So you would still have choice.

The word collusion comes to mind and makes me think that that's not choice in any meaningful sense of the word.

slayerment said:
Monopolies aren't really possible in a free market.

This is one of the premises of free marketeers that I really struggle with.

I don't think a monopoly is at all impossible, but more importantly I think oligarchy seems to be a more resilient form of dominance and I think history shows that. And in my opinion oligarchy cannot be considered a free market.

Do you think this is a possible, if somewhat oeversimplified, potential circumstance in the aftermath of the eventual dissolution of governments?

What used to be corporations in let's say the oil business are now freed from the regulations once imposed on them by states. They claim, buy, lease, and contract with others for land rights to go about their business.

With a relatively high barrier to entry buffering serious competition in the short term, the CEOs and trustees of the various former companies rub elbows as their paths occasionally cross and, now liberated from the strictures of rico laws and other hindrances, they talk more freely about working together to support, protect, and increase their mutual interests.

Out of these discussions comes an agreement between a number of the industry leaders to fix prices across the range of their products and services, to monitor competition together, discuss strategy collectively rather than separately, and to work on bringing the remaining players on board with their plans.

The arrival of a few startup companies who see these fixes in the market as opportunities begins to worry these industry leaders, and they agree to pool their resources together to buy them out. A couple of the startups decline their offers, so the industry leaders decide to retain the services of some contacts that they did business with when entities named the CIA and Blackwater once existed. These gentleman progressively stifle the startups with covert force and psychological warfare.

Unfortunately one of these jobs is a bit sloppier than the industry leaders would have liked, and the family members of the startup that was sloppily silenced contact the party with whom their former family members had contracted to insure their commercial assets. The insurer concludes that they should proceed with an investigative inquiry regarding the nature of the industry leaders' involvement with the deaths of several people in the drilling startup and the fires that wiped out their drill rigs. They call their preferred adjudicative service and notify the industry leaders of these goings on.

The industry leaders, not happy about this predicament, pay their own adjudicator an enormous sum of money to make the problem go away. Fortunately for the industry leaders, the high cost of entering the drilling business left the recently expired startup drillers with little money left over for insurance, so their insurer does not enjoy the connections and clout that the industry leaders' insurer has. Luckily too for the industry leaders, the adjudicative service provider furnished by the former drillers' insurer has a few pieces of dirty laundry that the industry leaders' adjudicator can explore.

The industry leaders' adjudicator uses a portion of the money to hire an intelligence agent to expose the grieving families' adjudicator for past malfeasance. He uses a portion of the money to pay media contacts to highlight the grieving families' adjudicator's malfeasance in the press, tarnishing the integrity of their dispute resolution capabilities. He offers a portion of the money to the families themselves to make them go away, which they do except a couple here and there. He uses a portion of the money to buy alibis for the industry leaders and their black ops contacts, weakening the strength of the grieving families' case. He uses the rest of the money to buy the CEO and head adjudicator of the grieving families' insurer new planes.

The case ends with some minimal payouts for lost equipment and no liability found for the industry leaders' involvement in the tragic fires that beset the startup drilling business. There is one persistent grieving family member who will not let the issue rest, and he hires additional investigators with his own secret stash of funds, determined to seek justice. Then his dog is shot with a high powered rifle while he is playing in the yard with him. Then his sister is run off the road and almost dies. He decides to cancel his contract with his investigators. Soon thereafter a large sum of money is inexplicably wired into his bank account.

The case leaves a bad taste in the industry's mouth, but only just enough to let the other industry players know that they have a bully in their midst. To all other interested and disinterested people not related directly to the case or the industry, this and a few similar incidences are all but forgotten in a couple generations.

Meanwhile, a couple of the other industry leaders who were not party to these and other related goings on have since accepted invitations to help the other industry leaders further their cause, perhaps seeing the writing on the wall and conluding if they can't beat them then join them. This leaves a small but significant minority of the drilling industry outside of the influence of this group of industry leaders. The industry leaders decide to compel their acceptance or force them out of the market so, unannounced, they release a significant portion of their reserves, triple production, and flood the market with their products and services. This unprecedented saturation drives prices to a point below which many of the remaining industry players can sustain their positions in the market. A few of them close and liquidate their assets, a few agree to mergers and acquisitions with the industry leaders' businesses, and a few are left standing. Of these, two take the hint and begin fixing prices according to the oligarchy's signals, eventually coming into the fold. One does not, so they repeat the cycle and force this competitor out of business.

The industry leaders are now more or less in control of the oil production market, which is nice for them because they are well enough connected amongst themselves to not only set prices to whatever they want but also to stifle any competition that arises and perpetuate the media and marketing mythology that the people they sell to are free to choose from a variety of many different companies. Their strength in numbers and dominating connectivity throughout other industrial circles of power allows any one or few of them to be attacked and even seriously injured without risking the integrity of the cartel itself. They fake feuds in the press, deliberately lose adjudications from time to time, start new brands and advertise them as startups, and generally make sure things look like a free market to all outward appearances.

Perhaps at a later junction a group of people come together with an enormous amount of capital, determined to break into the oil production industry. The industry leaders, seeing this coming, might even have to break their free market camouflage and expose themselves for who they are by waging what would amount to war against these people, right out in the open. Their customers, shocked at the market suppression and outright tyranny of the industry colluding together, would perhaps be determined to seek energy elsewhere. And maybe that would be the end of the industry leaders and their oligarchy. Or maybe they'd try to silence alternative energy sources. Or maybe they'd just buy those alternative energy sources and further their illusion of choice.

I'm sure there's plenty wrong with the above story but I think it gets the point across. Do you think this kind of scenario is plausible?
 


Hellblazer:

Republicans and flag waving is what will save us...

We should go back to the good old days when we hung and burnt blacks and browns...

Post one quote from this thread where I mentioned the words "Republicans", "blacks", or "browns".

You won't, because you lied.

You lied, because you had no other way to win the argument.

You're a filthy, dishonest liar and are no better than the anarchists.
 
The word collusion comes to mind and makes me think that that's not choice in any meaningful sense of the word.



This is one of the premises of free marketeers that I really struggle with.

I don't think a monopoly is at all impossible, but more importantly I think oligarchy seems to be a more resilient form of dominance and I think history shows that. And in my opinion oligarchy cannot be considered a free market.

Do you think this is a possible, if somewhat oeversimplified, potential circumstance in the aftermath of the eventual dissolution of governments?

What used to be corporations in let's say the oil business are now freed from the regulations once imposed on them by states. They claim, buy, lease, and contract with others for land rights to go about their business.

With a relatively high barrier to entry buffering serious competition in the short term, the CEOs and trustees of the various former companies rub elbows as their paths occasionally cross and, now liberated from the strictures of rico laws and other hindrances, they talk more freely about working together to support, protect, and increase their mutual interests.

Out of these discussions comes an agreement between a number of the industry leaders to fix prices across the range of their products and services, to monitor competition together, discuss strategy collectively rather than separately, and to work on bringing the remaining players on board with their plans.

The arrival of a few startup companies who see these fixes in the market as opportunities begins to worry these industry leaders, and they agree to pool their resources together to buy them out. A couple of the startups decline their offers, so the industry leaders decide to retain the services of some contacts that they did business with when entities named the CIA and Blackwater once existed. These gentleman progressively stifle the startups with covert force and psychological warfare.

Unfortunately one of these jobs is a bit sloppier than the industry leaders would have liked, and the family members of the startup that was sloppily silenced contact the party with whom their former family members had contracted to insure their commercial assets. The insurer concludes that they should proceed with an investigative inquiry regarding the nature of the industry leaders' involvement with the deaths of several people in the drilling startup and the fires that wiped out their drill rigs. They call their preferred adjudicative service and notify the industry leaders of these goings on.

The industry leaders, not happy about this predicament, pay their own adjudicator an enormous sum of money to make the problem go away. Fortunately for the industry leaders, the high cost of entering the drilling business left the recently expired startup drillers with little money left over for insurance, so their insurer does not enjoy the connections and clout that the industry leaders' insurer has. Luckily too for the industry leaders, the adjudicative service provider furnished by the former drillers' insurer has a few pieces of dirty laundry that the industry leaders' adjudicator can explore.

The industry leaders' adjudicator uses a portion of the money to hire an intelligence agent to expose the grieving families' adjudicator for past malfeasance. He uses a portion of the money to pay media contacts to highlight the grieving families' adjudicator's malfeasance in the press, tarnishing the integrity of their dispute resolution capabilities. He offers a portion of the money to the families themselves to make them go away, which they do except a couple here and there. He uses a portion of the money to buy alibis for the industry leaders and their black ops contacts, weakening the strength of the grieving families' case. He uses the rest of the money to buy the CEO and head adjudicator of the grieving families' insurer new planes.

The case ends with some minimal payouts for lost equipment and no liability found for the industry leaders' involvement in the tragic fires that beset the startup drilling business. There is one persistent grieving family member who will not let the issue rest, and he hires additional investigators with his own secret stash of funds, determined to seek justice. Then his dog is shot with a high powered rifle while he is playing in the yard with him. Then his sister is run off the road and almost dies. He decides to cancel his contract with his investigators. Soon thereafter a large sum of money is inexplicably wired into his bank account.

The case leaves a bad taste in the industry's mouth, but only just enough to let the other industry players know that they have a bully in their midst. To all other interested and disinterested people not related directly to the case or the industry, this and a few similar incidences are all but forgotten in a couple generations.

Meanwhile, a couple of the other industry leaders who were not party to these and other related goings on have since accepted invitations to help the other industry leaders further their cause, perhaps seeing the writing on the wall and conluding if they can't beat them then join them. This leaves a small but significant minority of the drilling industry outside of the influence of this group of industry leaders. The industry leaders decide to compel their acceptance or force them out of the market so, unannounced, they release a significant portion of their reserves, triple production, and flood the market with their products and services. This unprecedented saturation drives prices to a point below which many of the remaining industry players can sustain their positions in the market. A few of them close and liquidate their assets, a few agree to mergers and acquisitions with the industry leaders' businesses, and a few are left standing. Of these, two take the hint and begin fixing prices according to the oligarchy's signals, eventually coming into the fold. One does not, so they repeat the cycle and force this competitor out of business.

The industry leaders are now more or less in control of the oil production market, which is nice for them because they are well enough connected amongst themselves to not only set prices to whatever they want but also to stifle any competition that arises and perpetuate the media and marketing mythology that the people they sell to are free to choose from a variety of many different companies. Their strength in numbers and dominating connectivity throughout other industrial circles of power allows any one or few of them to be attacked and even seriously injured without risking the integrity of the cartel itself. They fake feuds in the press, deliberately lose adjudications from time to time, start new brands and advertise them as startups, and generally make sure things look like a free market to all outward appearances.

Perhaps at a later junction a group of people come together with an enormous amount of capital, determined to break into the oil production industry. The industry leaders, seeing this coming, might even have to break their free market camouflage and expose themselves for who they are by waging what would amount to war against these people, right out in the open. Their customers, shocked at the market suppression and outright tyranny of the industry colluding together, would perhaps be determined to seek energy elsewhere. And maybe that would be the end of the industry leaders and their oligarchy. Or maybe they'd try to silence alternative energy sources. Or maybe they'd just buy those alternative energy sources and further their illusion of choice.

I'm sure there's plenty wrong with the above story but I think it gets the point across. Do you think this kind of scenario is plausible?
images


BTW, I love how you wrote about this subject :) Very cool.
 
Fuck, sorry for the wall of text ^^. SHoulda pm'd slayerment, didn't mean to put a combo breaker in the thread. Great discussion.

How can you enforce any rule without an underlying threat of violence?

I think the answer is that you can't, but you can drastically reduce the possibility of violence with the incentive of profit as the reward for peace? Something like that.
 
The police in Ireland are loved by everyone here. Recently a cop was shot dead (the second in about 80 years) and the entire country mourned. A good police force can exist but the US force needs massive changes to become better.
 
lol, that badge number is that pig's curse. He probably thought it was so cool, that now he's pushing 60 and never made it anywhere in life beyond being a traffic beat cop. What a fucking loser.
 
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Af7boYhM5PY]Derrick J Owns Keene Police - YouTube[/ame]


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xp9Rashds7k]Derrick J. Arraigned for Ignoring a Costumed Man with a Gun - $5,000 Bail - YouTube[/ame]
 
Whether you agree with Guerilla or not, you could at least try to understand what he is saying before attempting to argue with him. Its going over most of your heads.
 
~~ SHORT STORY ~~

Thanks for the great response. You always have insightful posts and have obviously done a lot of homework and thinking. I don't entirely disagree with what you are saying, however, I feel compelled to at least give you my thoughts in return for such a though provoking post.

I think oligarchy, like monopoly, would be hard to occur in a completely free society. The difficulty, obviously, is getting to a free society which is hard to do because we have to evolve from a state society to a state-less society. We have to evolve from group-rule to self-rule. So we're not starting free, we're starting as slaves and trying to remove the chains of bondage that we were born into. We're trying to evolve there which makes it much more tricky. We have non free market forces constantly and cunningly doing everything in their power to suppress and destroy the free market forces. Once we get there however, which I am optimistic that we will at some point, it will be a much different dynamic on all levels.

So in our current state-full world I do agree that oligarchies (countries, secret societies, brotherhoods, etc) will continue to rise and fall and war. That is our current algorithm, or rather virus. And once a better algorithm comes along (free market) that algorithm is constantly attacked. At some point the free market will break through and the virus will no longer resurface itself, but getting there is a long journey. Getting rid of the current world oligarch is a battle that must first be won spiritually and rationally IMO. Until the people change, the way we operate in society will never change. We may have free societies, cities, countries and what have you arise, but as long as there are other groups of people who believe in slavery, they will continue to support the oligarchy's destruction of free, rational, loving society.

There's obviously a lot more to be said on this, but this is where I'm at as far as oligarchies and monopolies are concerned.

The oil scenario you outlined is obviously how it works today so it is not just plausible, but reality. There are a few points I would like to make on this.

1. As you eluded to, oil is just the current energy paradigm we are living in. At any point somebody could come up with an alternative source of energy that is cheaper and more efficient and these guys would all face a serious predicament. This has happened time and time again in many other industries. Could the new energy source be bought out? Sure. Could the new energy source not be bought out? Sure. Not every industry leader continues to be an industry leader when a new innovation comes along. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. But at some point these oil companies would not be able to suppress everything. Multiple parties would eventually have multiple alternative solutions and there would eventually be a group of new kids on the block. Even in oligarchies, mafias and secret societies it works this way.

2. These oil companies became big because of the state. They became big in a non-free market environment through the state. So it's tough to use them as an example because in a free market scenario they probably would have never attained the reach and power they currently hold. This collusion, and so many others as well, is a direct result of the state.

3. The state is one of the biggest deterrents for oil exploration. I can't just go find land and start drilling there. I have to comply with the state first. Since nobody really owns their land I have to comply with countries and governments. The state is the greatest barrier of entry in the oil industry.

4. Why do I have to outdo them? These guys are already doing a fair job at providing oil. Sure it could be better, sure some of them could be called criminals, but there are a lot of other things in the world that could be better also. And I would much rather focus on markets that don't have ample infrastructure than focus on markets that do. Oil is done. That's old news. As a businessman and an honest advocate of the free market I should want to render my time in a direction where it is more needed. There are millions of other places to spend my time and energy.

5. Even with all the obstacles in front of me (government, collusion, capital, etc) it is still possible for me to raise money and become a large oil company if I can find a way to do it more efficiently and protect myself from the internal mafia. Anything is possible. If I sat down and really got creative and came up with a real plan it could be done.

6. Most of these companies remove their competitors via the government or covert wings of the government (CIA, FBI, etc) which would all be much harder to pull off without taxpayer funded government agencies under their control.

7. Finally, how would government, which is the largest monopoly and full of collusion, be any better at solving monopolies and collusion than a free market? What would you recommend for solving collusion and monopolies? I'm not saying this to you directly. I just have yet to see a more rational, loving and free society than that along the lines of Ancap or some similar state-less form.

Again, great post. You made me have to think which I always enjoy :)
 
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I saw HB's quote of UG.

Any admin with db access can confirm I've had you on ignore for at least a week. Whenever I last posted to you in the thread where you lied about your Marc Stevens research.

What do you mean by "applicable to you"? It's certainly being 'applied' to you, by people who list x, y and z actions that will be taken if you do not comply.
You got it. Applicable != applied.

Do you mean what "rights" do they have to apply these laws to you?
Rights are legal claims. They are fictions. Delusions. Like "Amurika" or "Canader". Just abstractions.

And if this is what you mean, how do you define "rights"? Because I could say they own the property you're on, but then does owning the property you live on give them "rights" to apply laws to you? Are these the "rights" you're looking for? And how do we even determine this property ownership if it is?
What Libertarianism Is - Stephan Kinsella - Mises Daily

Give that a read. If you have questions or it seems hard to understand, PM me.

Whether you agree with Guerilla or not, you could at least try to understand what he is saying before attempting to argue with him. Its going over most of your heads.
It's usually the guys who don't post, who get it. :)

A free market is a market structure in which the distribution and costs of goods and services, along with the structure and hierarchy between capital and consumer goods, are coordinated by supply and demand unhindered by external regulation or control by government or monopolies. A free market contrasts with a controlled market or regulated market, in which government policy intervenes in the setting of prices. An economy composed entirely of free markets is referred to as a free-market economy.
That's a narrow definition, but it's close enough.

In a free market, you might want to trade with another tribe that has more men and more man power and who could crush you, to ensure your survival. Free market is not FAIR market as you imply. Fairness is a subjective term and one that doesn't have any bearing on reality (it isn't even something real, it is a term to describe a biological human emotion to help control social interaction)
I never implied anything about fairness. I loath the word and the idea.

Try again.

If you use a made up definition, you can win any argument. Using common definitions for words is the basis of communication.
I am using a very common economic definition. You're welcome to Google until you're blue in the face though.

You still haven't answered my questions, and I believe this is the third time I am asking. Why is that? Do you feel you're conversing with me in good faith by asking me questions but ignoring the questions I ask you? Do you feel this conversation can be productive if it continues that way?

What used to be corporations in let's say the oil business are now freed from the regulations once imposed on them by states. They claim, buy, lease, and contract with others for land rights to go about their business.
Corporations are a creation of government. Without government, there will be no corporations.

You need a monopoly provider of law (government) in order to establish something like blanket limited liability. Without that, you'd have to negotiate liability with many parties. Think of it this way, an American corp has no special corp privileges in Japan. Why? The Japanese have a different corporate structure and legal system.

Now, some multi-nationals have figured out how to create corporations in many friendly legal jurisdictions, and game the system by arbitraging multiple systems. But in a system without formal government, the number of systems a multi-national would have to simultaneously game and participate in could number in the 10s of thousands. No so efficient economically, very unlikely it can be done practically.

Not to mention, from a consumer point of view, there is almost no advantage to having limited liability corporations, so it would be very difficult to get popular support for it, even within small communities.

I'm sure there's plenty wrong with the above story but I think it gets the point across. Do you think this kind of scenario is plausible?
I do not. I do think there will be plenty of problems, outrage, scams, schemes, failures and problems in a stateless system, but the difference between that and what we have now, is that the stateless system can evolve and change to solve those concerns, what we have now institutionalizes failure and creates a massive amount of dead weight on society at large.

Right now those corporations you fear (government is also incorporated fyi) transfer their losses to society at large but keep their profits, and they do it with the help of the government.

As long as you centralize power and prohibit competition, someone is going to seize control of that power. The only way to combat things being too big, too big to fail, too big to be good for consumers is to have a decentralized system.

The notion that government keeps corporations in check is laughable at best since again, government creates corporations. What governmentS do to keep corps in check, is being differentiated. Imagine ratcheting that up from 200 jurisdictions to 20,000. Or 200,000. Good luck corporation bros...
 
I dont understand guerilla's logic too well. If you get pulled over for speeding, pretending the cop isn't real or the law isn't applicable won't rectify the situation whatsoever. I would rather deal with often unpleasant facts of reality than try to create an alternate one. One can argue that we all make our own realities in an abstract sense, but I draw the line when potential for physical confrontation is involved.
 
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I dont understand guerilla's logic too well.
You've got a lot of balls wandering into this thread. I am not sure if you're incredibly brave or incredibly stupid.

If you get pulled over for speeding, pretending the cop isn't real or the law isn't applicable won't rectify the situation whatsoever.
No, it probably won't. Also, if a serial killer kidnaps you and asks you to dress up as his mother and make him cookies, it might be a good idea to play along in that circumstance as well.

I would rather deal with often unpleasant facts of reality than try to create an alternate one.
The problem isn't your participation in the delusion. Well, I mean at a high level it is, but at a low level, the problem is if you believe the delusion.

If you really believe Cops put on a uniform and that gives them supernatural, extra human, extra moral, extra ethical powers, then you're a nut.

If you use the uniform to recognize a violent psychopath you're going to play along with until you can get safe again, that's pretty understandable.

If you read back over the objections to the guys in the car, and what they did that have been posted to the thread, almost all of them revolve personal attacks for the style, tone, age etc of the guys in the car.

Nobody on that side of the discussion wants to engage the question they asked the cop. Again, that's because there isn't a good answer. But it is funny to see how people reflexively lash out to protect the system that helps to oppress them.

And it's funny like the way George Carlin talks about people.

1.13 to 1.32 of this video


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKQs-jDI7j8]George Carlin the illusion of freedom - YouTube[/ame]
 
There was a time where I had similar beliefs as Guerilla.
I found that moving to a smaller community and interacting with local law enforcement on a regular basis altered my outlook. That's interacting in the sense of working together on community service issues, not getting pulled over for infraction stupidity.

In a large population centers there is no possibility for law enforcement to do anything other than go by their doctrines, in less populated places the rules are different.
 
There was a time where I had similar beliefs as Guerilla.
You didn't because I don't work on beliefs. I try to work from facts and logic.

I found that moving to a smaller community and interacting with local law enforcement on a regular basis altered my outlook.
I live in a small community and we have no law enforcement.

That's interacting in the sense of working together on community service issues, not getting pulled over for infraction stupidity.
It's called revenue generation for the municipality.

In a large population centers there is no possibility for law enforcement to do anything other than go by their doctrines, in less populated places the rules are different.
None of that changes the fact that law enforcement, and the laws they enforce are arbitrary and based on fiction.

Seek help.
So I can believe in nonsense? LOL.
 
I'm pretty sure Sealand is still taking offers, and they have everything a marketer who feels they are opressed and wants to make their own laws or lack thereof. Internet access, food, shelter et cetera.

sealand.jpg
 
"The shallow consider liberty a release from all law, from every constraint. The wise see in it, on the contrary, the potent Law of Laws." ~ Walt Whitman


"So long as the people do not care to exercise their freedom, those who wish to tyrannize will do so; for tyrants are active and ardent, and will devote themselves in the name of any number of gods, religious and otherwise, to put shackles upon sleeping men." ~ Voltaire
 
You got it. Applicable != applied.


Rights are legal claims. They are fictions. Delusions. Like "Amurika" or "Canader". Just abstractions.


What Libertarianism Is - Stephan Kinsella - Mises Daily

Give that a read. If you have questions or it seems hard to understand, PM me.

First, kudos on spending the time to reply to so many attacks from so many different directions with people at so many different levels of understanding.

I gave the link a read through and noted the key definitions. Lets clarify and see if I'm on the right track first before I argue further.

You asked "How are these laws applicable to me".

From reading the link you gave, I would define the laws applicable to you under "might-makes-right". This is a property right you do not want to acknowledge.

(although I would say the external rights seems a bit murky to me. As we trace back rights to find "first prior users" we would just be going through lists of people who originally got ownership of the land through "might-makes-right" and never have any "first prior users" to claim the rights).

Off topic: Cool mises quote from this article.
According to Mises, human action is aimed at alleviating some felt uneasiness.[30] Thus,
means are employed, according to the actor's understanding of causal laws, to achieve various ends — ultimately,
the removal of uneasiness.