Massive shooting in Colorado during The Dark Knight, 14 dead

How is that fact relevant to this discussion?


Switzerland.


So perhaps you're the one whose commenting from what he sees in video games and movies, rather than people who have handled firearms before.

You listed the audience being disarmed as a fact. Thats incorrect. To be disarmed implies the desire to want to be armed and i doubt every audience member had the desire to ge armed.

Also, you asked whether i had ever fired a gun, to which i said no. I dont own a hand gun. I have fired a rifle many times.
 


You listed the audience being disarmed as a fact. Thats incorrect. To be disarmed implies the desire to want to be armed and i doubt every audience member had the desire to ge armed.
They were disarmed BY LAW.

You know, that inconvenience which criminals ignore?

Also, you asked whether i had ever fired a gun, to which i said no. I dont own a hand gun. I have fired a rifle many times.
:rolleyes:
 
Those stats are from violent firearm crime only. They do not include suicide or accidental death.

RCHEd.png

Damn, I guess we better make it illegal for criminals to own guns then and fix that.

Do you have stats for non-gun related violent crimes, would be interested in seeing that also.
 
So you're watching batman, all the sudden there's tear gas in the theater and a gunman shooting people. Screaming and chaos all around you. It's dark. You're scared and disoriented, perhaps worried for your family. Yet in the midst of all this, you pull out a pistol and manage to shoot this guy in just the right spot? That's unlikely IMO.

Your scenario is too much in a vacuum. That's not how people work. I don't want to speak for anyone else but I am a strong proponent of unregulated concealed carry and with that said, I'm approaching this not only from the perspective of 'what if people were armed in that theater' but of 'what if people were armed in that theater, and the culture of the people attending that movie had a basic respect for firearms, knew how to use them well, and cared about protecting their neighbors and communities through responsible firearm use'. It's a very, very different set of circumstances.

Concealed carriers pretty much always have the thought in the back of their minds, if I feel like it's appropriate for me to draw and people have a problem with it or it's a false alarm then there might be a scene, people might think I'm crazy, etc. Antigun sentiment saps the efficacy of carrying and detracts from the will of the armed population to respond responsibly like they know they should - whereas a culture that actively encourages it responds more appropriately, without hesitation, and does not worry about the perceptions of others as it's an accepted and promoted social norm.

That said, people who carry concealed are - generally - very much aware of their surroundings, the people close to them, the cadence of the activities around them, and are among the first to be aware of disturbances and potential threats. No, not everyone who carries, and there are plenty of very much aware unarmed people. But in general, if you carry then you're paying attention and you see things coming before most others around.

The point is - the shooting lasted fucking fifteen minutes. If there were even ten people with handguns in that theater the shooter would have been disarmed and likely dead in no more than a few minutes tops. Period. Twenty or more carrying and he would have been on the ground in under a minute.

It wouldn't have mattered if that guy had three inch thick steel plates orbiting his body and sixteen assault rifles strapped to his scrotum. Ten people unloading on him and another ten looking for an opening to pounce, grab his weapon and pistol whip the fuck out of him. Done.
 
Timeout on this debate for a little entertainment...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeGD7r6s-zU]DEA Agent - YouTube[/ame]
 
Nice going Guerilla. On One hand you just tout "Switzerland" as an example of gun ownership gone right, on the other hand you say one can't compare countries....

As far as the Switzerland thing goes, here is a lengthy post from reddit, which I copied because it explains the situation very well.
I live in Switzerland and I can expand on this if you need me to.

::emp::

Quote:

Well, most men (are forced to) have a military gun at home. However, they don't have any munition. Munition is provided when you have to do the mandatory shooting each year or when you have to use the gun in the military service. However, it's strictly forbidden to take munition home from there. People who go shooting in a shooting club can buy the munition they need there.

So yes, most men have a gun, but can't use it. Of course, if somebody really wants, he could get some munition. It's legal to buy it, but there aren't a lot of places where you can.

This was about the military guns. To own a civil gun, you need a permit "Waffenerwebsschein", which usually gets everybody who is at least 18 years old, is Swiss and doesn't have any criminal records. However, this is only for owning a gun.

For carrying a gun, you need another permit "Waffentragschein", which is valid for 5 years and then must be renewed. This permit is usually only granted to people who work in security and they have to do a test before they get it. Hunter don't need this permit, but they need another license, which also includes a test.

There's no need for owning or even carrying a gun in Switzerland though. I recently saw that video about an American watchmaker who was the victim of armed robberies several times and each time he shot the robbers. This is just unthinkable here. We don't have any gangs, like you have in the USA. And only very, very few armed robberies and even in those we have, usually nobody gets hurt, because those people are just robbers, not murders. I think knives are used more often in robberies than guns and for such situations, we could buy pepper spray to defend ourselves.

So, Switzerland isn't safe because because of the guns, most guns belong to people who went through the military training and those guns are locked-in in the wardrobe without any available ammunition. The key is to provide a good education for everybody, provide job opportunities and security and social welfare and health care for everybody. This way, nobody is forced into criminality because he hasn't any options left.

Here, young people have usually very good job opportunities after hi-school. Only people who want to become a scientist or want to work in a job where they need a scientific degree, like lawyer or doctor, continue school (which costs about $2000 a year). Everybody else does a apprenticeship in a job he likes (there's one for anything, shop assistant, computer scientist, nurse, hairdresser, etc...). This means 2 to 5 year training, which includes theory in school and practical work at the work place and then they get a degree in that job. But, sorry, this is off topic, we were discussing guns. :)
 
Nice going Guerilla. On One hand you just tout "Switzerland" as an example of gun ownership gone right, on the other hand you say one can't compare countries....

As far as the Switzerland thing goes, here is a lengthy post from reddit, which I copied because it explains the situation very well.
I live in Switzerland and I can expand on this if you need me to.

::emp::

Quote:

Well, most men (are forced to) have a military gun at home. However, they don't have any munition. Munition is provided when you have to do the mandatory shooting each year or when you have to use the gun in the military service. However, it's strictly forbidden to take munition home from there. People who go shooting in a shooting club can buy the munition they need there.

So yes, most men have a gun, but can't use it. Of course, if somebody really wants, he could get some munition. It's legal to buy it, but there aren't a lot of places where you can.

This was about the military guns. To own a civil gun, you need a permit "Waffenerwebsschein", which usually gets everybody who is at least 18 years old, is Swiss and doesn't have any criminal records. However, this is only for owning a gun.

For carrying a gun, you need another permit "Waffentragschein", which is valid for 5 years and then must be renewed. This permit is usually only granted to people who work in security and they have to do a test before they get it. Hunter don't need this permit, but they need another license, which also includes a test.

There's no need for owning or even carrying a gun in Switzerland though. I recently saw that video about an American watchmaker who was the victim of armed robberies several times and each time he shot the robbers. This is just unthinkable here. We don't have any gangs, like you have in the USA. And only very, very few armed robberies and even in those we have, usually nobody gets hurt, because those people are just robbers, not murders. I think knives are used more often in robberies than guns and for such situations, we could buy pepper spray to defend ourselves.

So, Switzerland isn't safe because because of the guns, most guns belong to people who went through the military training and those guns are locked-in in the wardrobe without any available ammunition. The key is to provide a good education for everybody, provide job opportunities and security and social welfare and health care for everybody. This way, nobody is forced into criminality because he hasn't any options left.

Here, young people have usually very good job opportunities after hi-school. Only people who want to become a scientist or want to work in a job where they need a scientific degree, like lawyer or doctor, continue school (which costs about $2000 a year). Everybody else does a apprenticeship in a job he likes (there's one for anything, shop assistant, computer scientist, nurse, hairdresser, etc...). This means 2 to 5 year training, which includes theory in school and practical work at the work place and then they get a degree in that job. But, sorry, this is off topic, we were discussing guns. :)

There was a giant OMC war going on there that lasted forever. They even use freaking rocket launchers or RPG (I forget which).
 
And only very, very few armed robberies and even in those we have, usually nobody gets hurt, because those people are just robbers, not murders.

Yea, and fuck property, because it would be, like, retarded to hurt someone over mere items. The police fagshow that follows a robbery where they tell you that youre a retard for not keeping track of all your serial numbers is just icing on the cake.
 
I can't help but wonder why is it that these massacre happen in USA mostly. You almost cannot find this outside USA.
 
I can't help but wonder why is it that these massacre happen in USA mostly. You almost cannot find this outside USA.

1. the world reports american crimes, the american press generally doesnt care about what happens in irrelevant european union country #76

2. maybe media dont want the people to know that this stuff happens even when theres strict gun control

lots more points. what it comes down to is perception <> reality
 
Anders Behring Breivik, Utoya Island, Norway 2011 77 killed
Woo Bum-Kon, Sang-Namdo, South Korea 1982 57 killed
Martin Bryant, Port Arthur, Australia 1996 35 killed
Campo Delgado, Bogota, Colombia 1986 30 killed

etc.

List of rampage killers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You beat me to it. Would have posted that exact link. Over and over again people come into this thread spouting off "facts" and over and over again they are wrong.
 
Dunno where you live bro, but I have traveled all over the US, Mexico, and a few other countries, and spent most of my life in Canada.

You can't compare the US to Canada because they are completely different. The idea that they are similar socially is ridiculous.

Well, Canada and US are far more similar in culture and economic status than Switzerland which you mentioned earlier.

BTW, I'm about 350 miles south of you. I've traveled to Europe, Australia, Mexico and Canada (for about 7 yrs I drove up to Vancouver on a monthly basis) Canadians and Americans have much more in common than the other developed countries. Of course there are differences but they aren't as huge when you throw the others in the mix.


Canada and USA

-GDP per capita (almost same $47k -ish)

-Personal disposable income per capita is slightly higher in USA

-age structure

-Ethnic groups (US has more blacks, Canada more Asians)

-Canada scores higher on test scores (duh, US sucks)
 
Nice going Guerilla. On One hand you just tout "Switzerland" as an example of gun ownership gone right, on the other hand you say one can't compare countries....
Actually, it was totally consistent.

If the argument is gun ownership alone, then Switzerland is a great counter-example to the issues as perceived in the US. Switzerland also has an armed citizenry but radically different outcomes, which means that gun ownership alone cannot be the issue.

If the argument is that Canada is the closest social match to the US (eliminating that variable so as to only look at the different incident rates) then it's a false comparison. Canada has a radically different social culture from urban centers in the US.

It would also be a false comparison if people said that Swiss and American culture were similar, but no one is saying that.

In fact, it's my opinion that most of the violence in America has very little to do with small arms ownership and a lot to do with social and economic issues. Hence why firearms ownership isn't an issue in Switzerland (and to be honest, is a false dilemma in the American context as well).
 
Well, Canada and US are far more similar in culture and economic status than Switzerland which you mentioned earlier.
See my reply to Emp.

BTW, I'm about 350 miles south of you. I've traveled to Europe, Australia, Mexico and Canada (for about 7 yrs I drove up to Vancouver on a monthly basis) Canadians and Americans have much more in common than the other developed countries. Of course there are differences but they aren't as huge when you throw the others in the mix.
Vancouver and Toronto are not Canada. In fact, one could argue that despite their large populations, they are some of the least "Canadian" cities.

I grew up in Windsor, a couple miles away from Detroit, and there were very few, if any similarities socially or economically.
 
Guuerilla.

Nice of you to step up, but let us be honest here. If we can not compare gun crimes based on gun ownership alone, but rather have to take in culture, economics, general well-being of the populace, etc..

The we should not compare countries at all.

::emp::