The Alternative and Complementary Medicine Thread - 100% BS?

Alternative and Complementary Medicine - 100% BS?

  • Yes, 100% BS

    Votes: 15 27.3%

  • Alternative Medicine -> BS / Complementary Medicine -> Possibly Legit

    Votes: 13 23.6%

  • No, 100% Legit

    Votes: 12 21.8%

  • Nick Throlson

    Votes: 15 27.3%
  • Total voters
    55
charlie.simm

charlie.simm

Gigantic Websites Dot Com
Jul 6, 2007
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LOTS of WF threads got sidetracked due to alternative or complementary medicine-related debates and since nobody started a thread dedicated exclusively to alternative/complementary medicine, I decided to do just that.

I mean wtf, there are SHITLOADS of threads about conspiracies, existential crap and lots of other stuff we can't control, why not one about something that affects us directly?

I. Why did I decide to start this thread?

Two reasons:

1) Several WF members I respect (guerilla, for example, I'll PM him a link to this thread in a few minutes) recommend alternative/complementary medicine.

2) We're all people who either earn a living online or want to earn a living online. I'm sure everyone can agree that both skepticism and open mindness are requirements if you're serious about making it on teh Interwebz.

II. The difference between alternative and complementary medicine?

Here are two let's call them "definitions" we can work with:

"Complementary medicine is used together with conventional medicine. An example of a complementary therapy is using aromatherapy to help lessen a patient's discomfort following surgery".
Click to expand...
"Alternative medicine is used in place of conventional medicine. An example of an alternative therapy is using a special diet to treat cancer instead of undergoing surgery, radiation, or chemotherapy that has been recommended by a conventional doctor".
Click to expand...


III. My opinion

1) Telling people to avoid conventional treatment and go with "alternative" methods exclusively is a crime and those who recommend such approaches are more dangerous than serial killers IMO.

A psychopath can kill two people, three people, ten people or whatever until he or she gets caught. On the other hand, some dude/chick who recommends alternative medicine can do a LOT more damage if he/she ends up appearing on TV/radio/whatever.

In other words:

Alternative Medicine -> FUCK NO!

2) Now when it comes to complementary medicine, things are bit more complicated because lots of people seem to be more reasonable. In other words, recommending something like aromatherapy for post-surgery stress relief purposes kind of makes sense. On the other hand though, let's not forget about drug interactions and the fact that complementary medicine can do more harm than good.

In other words:

Complementary Medicine -> Maybe

Alright then, I explained why I started this thread and posted my opinion but I'm an open minded person (I'll start another thread about the "WF Only" gay orgies I'm gonna organize though). I'm genuinely interested in finding out what you guys think.

If you agree with the way I see things, let me know. If not, prove me wrong!
 


Haven't really thought much on the topic before, but alternative medicine in certain instances COULD have a case if it's really true that pharma companies purposefully shelf cures. More money to be made treating symptoms than ending them right? Does this really happen? Don't know.
 
ask those ppl who live 100+ years and never ate a pill from headache
p.s. you'd probably have to travel outside of good ol'
 
putting it this way is too general. Its hard to lump all alternative medicine together. Some works and some not that much. However, in choosing drugs rather than an particular 'alternative', i'll choose alternative. For example, I have been using colloidal silver for years very effectively, while the mainstream gives you the idea you'll turn blue using it.

Of course not ALL alternative are legit. So i am unable to vote in the poll. Most mainstream drugs are BS though (taking account of side effects etc).
 
I'd say that the average WF is more scientifically-minded than the average person (me included), which means that anything that smells of the word "alternative medicine" will hit our BS meter pretty quick.

Cutting-edge conventional medicine (like genetic engineering and stem cell therapy) is far from perfect, but I'll take those over shit like homeopathy any day.

Anything cutting-edge in science seems awkward at first, but when the brilliants minds that concieved them continue to refine them, you get awesomeness.

e.g. Who would have thought those clunky steam-engines would replace horse-drawn carriages en-masse? After all natural is best right? Natural "horsepower" all the way!

Many "conventional" drugs and treatments are BS, but that's only because of politics and human greed messing up the equation. If we can "scientifically" remove politics from the pharmaceutical/medical industries, a much higher proportion of "conventional" drugs and treatments would actually work. Unfortunately, not gonna happen in my lifetime.

Also effective conventional and alternative medicine may overlap at times, but only conventional medicine at least attempts to back results with scientific reasoning and logic. Humanity probably has thousands of years to go at least in this regard, but we're an intelligent species and at least the spark has been initiated. We just have to hope we won't nuke ourselves or build skynet.

Our nature of trying to find "how stuff works" is what sets us apart from other animals. "Natural" is not best - nature defaults to chaos. Go back 50,000 years in time and tell us how "easy" and "natural" life is.
 
You also need to look at the business side of things. Why would the pharmaceutical companies want a cure for AIDS or cancer. Whoever gets cured means one less customer. That's part of conventional medicine.
 
my-hair-is-a-bird-argument-invalid.jpg
 
Re: alternative medicine

it depends on the illness you're treating. A lot of "conventional" treatments aren't very effective either, especially for chronic illnesses.

For example, let's say you had Osteoarthritis of the knee - a common, often debilitating chronic condition.

Conventional Medicine

A doctor might recommend NSAIDs (like ibuprofen). These don't address the underlying cause, and you can't take them for a long time due to the side-effects they have on your gastrointestinal system.

There are also steroid injections.. reduce inflammation for a while, but can't be taken for a long time because of side-effects. They also do nothing to address the underlying cause, which is cartilage loss.

So what else can you take? There are COX-2 inhibitors which are supposed to reduce inflammation. Only.... they kill people, oh and they don't work too well (Google Vioxx if you want to know what I'm talking about)

(Oh, and a side note - the efficacy studies for this drug were fabricated. Merck owned up to it and got a big fine. Think that's the first time they've done that, or the first time they've been caught?)

That's all the doc has for medical treatment of your OA. What about surgery?

You can choose between arthroscopy and total knee replacement. If you ask a surgeon how effective these are... they'll tell you they're very effective. However if you do a restrospective study of how satisfied patients are with their treatment 5 years down the line, the results are considerably less impressive.

The fact is, there are currently no effective long term conventional treatments for OA, and the symptomatic relievers can't be used long term due to side effectcs. However, a lot of doctors will keep pushing the above onto you, because that's what they've been trained to do.

Alternative Medicine

Now let's look at alternative treatments.

(To save me some typing, all the assertions below are based on proper research studies. If you want to check my sources, spend some time on the Arthritis research UK website – they’re an independent charity who funds research both into complementary and conventional therapies, so they are as neutral as anyone)

1. Capsaicin Gel - pain relief only, but has been shown to be effective in placebo-controlled trials . No systemic side effects, and no reported interactions.
2. Traumeel - a homeopathic preparation that reduces inflammation. There's less published evidence for this one, but a close relative of mine is doing some research into it which is showing some interesting results, so that may change. The German olympic team use it a lot, and they're not the sort of people given to flights of hippy fantasy. Plus, it's made in Germany, and you know the Germans make good stuff.

3. Yoga + massage. This is effective for two reasons – 1. Relaxation. 2. Controlled movement and dynamic loading of a joint is one of the very few approaches that actually reduces cartilage loss (rather than just relieving pain or reducing inflammation). No side effects... and you get to look at lots of attractive women in contorted positions. What’s not to like?

4. Magnet therapy. I’ve gotta admit.. I thought this one was bullshit. But apparently not – it’s been shown to have moderate effect in pain relief. No side effects. Who’da thunk it?

5. Phytodolor – A herbal mixture. Shown to be better than placebo in trials, and no-long major side effects.

There are loads more of these, but I think you get the gist. However... I have cherry picked the most effective treatments. There are a lot of alternative treatments for OA which are pretty much bullshit. Included in these are some of the most popular – Chondroitin and Glucosamine.

My conclusion to this? That the alternative medicine versus conventional argument is an unhelpful one. It reduces the argument to a religious one.

You need to look at things on a treatment-by-treatment basis. Just because something is approved by the FDA, doesn’t mean it’s safe and effective... just that their trials said it was, which is different. Likewise, just because one alternative remedy works, doesn’t mean they all do.

Oh and to answer your point about recommending alternative treatments.... in the case of OA, I’d certainly look at alternatives over conventional. However, if we were talking about cancer/chemotherapy versus ‘crystal healing’ or whatever, the conventional route seems more appealing.
 
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Dateline NBC - Jim Abrahams

tldw;

In the 1980's Hollywood producer Jim Abrahams (Airplane, The Naked Gun, Hot Shots) young son started having severe seizures. Over the next couple years his son was in and out of hospitals and given a shitload of drugs to stop the seizures. But nothing worked. So Jim started doing his own research, found a unique diet in a 100 year old medical book, put his son on this diet and within days the seizures stopped and his son was cured.

Ketogenic Diet
 
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nm4pqN9cNS8]YouTube - ‪Morning Meeting, 08/03/09, Nassim Taleb, Overtreatment reduces life expectancy‬‏[/ame]
 
amateursurgeon said:
Oh and to answer your point about recommending alternative treatments.... in the case of OA, I’d certainly look at alternatives over conventional. However, if we were talking about cancer/chemotherapy versus ‘crystal healing’ or whatever, the conventional route seems more appealing.
Click to expand...

I don't see how taking a cocktail of toxins/poison can be appealing

Dr. Hardin Jones, Professor of medical physics at the University of California at Berkeley, analyzed cancer survival statistics for 25 years. In 1969, at an American Cancer Society (ACS) meeting, he said that untreated patients do not die sooner than patients receiving orthodox treatment, and in many cases they live longer. This negative assessment was subsequently supported by three other studies done by other researchers. No study has ever refuted these findings.5

A group of vested, interlocking interests preserve the status quo in cancer treatment and research. This group includes the ACS, National Cancer Institute (NCI), large pharmaceutical companies, and some insurance firms, hospitals, and medical schools, according to Richard Walters, author of Options: The Alternative Cancer Therapy Book. He asserts that this “medical cartel” is headed by the American Medical Association (AMA), “a trade union with an extremely powerful lobby.” According to Walters, the AMA represents less than half the allopathic (conventional) doctors in the U.S., yet has a stranglehold over government American health care policies.

Most cancer patients in this country die of chemotherapy. Chemotherapy does not eliminate breast, colon or lung cancers. The fact has been documented for over a decade.... Women with breast cancer are likely to die faster with chemotherapy than without it.”
- Dr. Alan Levin, Professor of Immunology, University of California Medical School, 1987

Ulrich Abel, Ph.D., of West Germany, did a comprehensive study on chemotherapy. In 1990 he wrote, “There is no evidence for the vast majority of cancers that treatment with these drugs exerts any positive influence on survival or quality of life in patients with advanced disease.” He stated that although chemotherapy does shrink tumors initially in many patients, unfortunately this did not prolong survival because the cancer usually returned, often more aggressively than at first. In Abel’s poll of hundreds of cancer doctors worldwide, he discovered that many oncologists would not take chemotherapy themselves if they had cancer.

Dr. Levin, at a national conference on medical abuses, said: “Practicing physicians are intimidated into using regimes which they know do not work. One of the most glaring examples is chemotherapy, which does not work for the majority of cancers. Despite the fact that most physicians agree that chemotherapy is largely ineffective, they are coerced into using it by special interest groups which have vested interest in the profits of the drug industry.” (More 20 on that, later.)

In the meantime, chemotherapy continues, despite the fact that ALL chemotherapy drugs are toxic, and many are themselves carcinogenic.
Click to expand...
http://www.starthealthylife.com/page296.htm
 
A lot of pharmaceutical medicines are derived from medicinal plants. This is also true with regards to synthesized medicinal formulas. They attempt to mimic the beneficial properties of plants and algae.

Plant-based alternative medicines are as old as history. The money-motivated drug companies go to great efforts to prevent the distribution of these basic medicinal formulas. Then they synthesize semi-poisonous concoctions that sell for prohibitive sums of money.
 
SeoReborn said:
You also need to look at the business side of things. Why would the pharmaceutical companies want a cure for AIDS or cancer. Whoever gets cured means one less customer. That's part of conventional medicine.
Click to expand...

The "they're hiding the cure" theory doesn't make sense for one simple reason: preventing leaks would be impossible because there are too many people who WANT a cure involved (ambitious scientists who want their names to appear in history books, billionaires who are willing to fund promising projects for personal reasons and so on).
 
charlie.simm said:
The "they're hiding the cure" theory doesn't make sense for one simple reason: preventing leaks would be impossible because there are too many people who WANT a cure involved (ambitious scientists who want their names to appear in history books, billionaires who are willing to fund promising projects for personal reasons and so on).
Click to expand...

Preventing 'leaks that become mainstream' is possible. The people who find the cure is threatened, discredited. Plus, with the general population having a bias towards the mainstream propaganda, anything they hear that could be used to 'cure' cancer/HIV, they will classify it as wacky since they trust their sources such as the FDA who are puppets of the pharmaceutical cartels. No one will dare claim they 'cure' cancer/HIV, as using the word cure will get them in jail.

In fact there are cures out there already. I'll make a separate thread on one of them soon.
 
We are always in a phase between conventional and alternative, as in many other industries. Alternative medicine has to hold some legitimacy otherwise nothing new would ever be invented/created and it would leave us with conventional medicine as being 100% accurate and true. Because our current medicine is far from being perfect it will have to take alternative medicine for it to improve. Conventional medicine would not have gotten to where it is today without "alternative" medicine. What is conventional today was at some point alternative.

Furthermore, of course a major part of the medical industry is controlled and manipulated to make money. Medical companies aren't in the business to cure people. They're in the business to make money. And what better revenue model than passive income every month?
 
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