The Real War in Iraq

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So many threads, so many ignorant arguments. This is all I have to say about the war in Iraq: It's fucked up. We shouldn't be there. They don't want us there. And this is why:

Iraq Soldier Discusses His "Kills" (VIDEO)

I don't care what you call yourself... liberal, conservative, nazi... If a foreign government sent their military into your backyard and did this to someone you love, how would you react?

Don't give me that "it's just a few bad apples" speech. One bad apple ruins the bunch.
 


So many threads, so many ignorant arguments. This is all I have to say about the war in Iraq: It's fucked up. We shouldn't be there. They don't want us there. And this is why:

Iraq Soldier Discusses His "Kills" (VIDEO)

I don't care what you call yourself... liberal, conservative, nazi... If a foreign government sent their military into your backyard and did this to someone you love, how would you react?

Don't give me that "it's just a few bad apples" speech. One bad apple ruins the bunch.

So are you going on the record as stating that all of our soldiers are "bad apples"??
 
So are you going on the record as stating that all of our soldiers are "bad apples"??

In the eyes of the Iraqi people, yes. If a soldier from Iraq killed your family member, right in front of you, for no reason at all, would you trust any other Iraqi soldiers?

I know plenty of good people in the military. I lived on military bases until I was 18 years old. However, I'm not talking about my view of U.S. soldiers... I'm talking about their view.

And in their view, you better hide from the U.S. soldiers, because they'll shoot you in the head and blast your church for no reason at all.
 
This seems like a good time to suggest some reading AFP: Ex-spokesman lambasts Bush, Iraq war in new book

WASHINGTON (AFP) — A former White House spokesman charges in a new memoir that President George W. Bush was not "open and forthright on Iraq" and relied on "propaganda" to sell an "unnecessary" war, US media reported Wednesday.
Scott McClellan, who was Bush's press secretary from 2003-2006, delivers a scathing critique of the administration in a 341-page book titled "What Happened: Inside the Bush White House and Washington's Culture of Deception."
He describes Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice as deft at deflecting blame and calls Vice President Dick Cheney "the magic man" who steered policy behind the scenes while leaving no fingerprints, The Washington Post reported.
McClellan, 40, who defended White House policy from his podium during press briefings, also writes that the Iraq war "was not necessary" and "was a serious strategic blunder," according to Politico.com.

"I still like and admire President Bush," McClellan writes in the book to be published next week.

"But he and his advisers confused the propaganda campaign with the high level of candor and honesty so fundamentally needed to build and then sustain public support during a time of war...

"In this regard, he was terribly ill-served by his top advisers, especially those involved directly in national security."

The former aide also blasts the White House staff over the disastrous handling of Hurricane Katrina in 2005, saying they "spent most of the first week in a state of denial."
"One of the worst disasters in our nation's history became one of the biggest disasters in Bush's presidency," he writes.

"The perception of this catastrophe was made worse by previous decisions President Bush had made, including, first and foremost, the failure to be open and forthright on Iraq and rushing to war with inadequate planning and preparation for its aftermath."
McClellan's book is critical of Rice, who was Bush's national security adviser between 2001 and 2005 before becoming the chief US diplomat.

"No matter what went wrong, she was somehow able to keep her hands clean," he writes, according to the New York Times. "She knew how to adapt to potential trouble, dismiss brooding problems, and come out looking like a star.

He also accuses former senior Bush advisor Karl Rove and Lewis "Scooter" Libby, Cheney's chief of staff, of deceiving him on their role in an explosive CIA leak scandal.

"Rove, Libby, and possibly Vice President Cheney allowed me, even encouraged me, to repeat a lie" that Rove and Libby were not involved in the leak of the name of former CIA operative Valerie Plame, McClellan writes.

Libby was convicted of obstruction of justice in 2007 and sentenced to two and a half years in prison, but Bush commuted his sentence.

McClellan's book has raised eyebrows among Washington's pundits for its candor and critical tone.

Rove, now a commentator on Fox News, hit back at McClellan as a "little irresponsible" and "out of the loop" for suggesting that he was involved in the CIA leak affair.

Rove said that McClellan "should have spoken up" earlier if he had had moral qualms about actions or policies of the White House.

The former spokesman points to his own shortcomings in his book, writing: "I fell far short of living up to the kind of public servant I wanted to be."

"As press secretary, I spent countless hours defending the administration from the podium in the White House briefing room. Although the things I said then were sincere, I have since come to realize that some of them were badly misguided."
 
In the eyes of the Iraqi people, yes. If a soldier from Iraq killed your family member, right in front of you, for no reason at all, would you trust any other Iraqi soldiers?

I know plenty of good people in the military. I lived on military bases until I was 18 years old. However, I'm not talking about my view of U.S. soldiers... I'm talking about their view.

And in their view, you better hide from the U.S. soldiers, because they'll shoot you in the head and blast your church for no reason at all.


The guy should be sent to prison for a very long time. What he did was terrible but he is the exception rather than the rule. You are correct an Iraqi citizen is going to HATE any US soldier for his actions but what about those that LOVE the US soldier for saving his child from a stray mortar etc.

This is just the nature of war. I am sure alot of the German citizens hated the US soldier in the end of the second world war.
 
I think that guy will live with his actions for the rest of his life and I doubt he would do the same again. Prison wouldn't make any difference.

Seems like the whole culture is fucked up - congratulations for a "first kill" might be understandable if it was an enemy fighter killed, but when it's an innocent person that's really fucked up.

Just as the actions of a few extremists have affected some people's view of all Muslims, the actions of these guys and others certainly affects the view people have of US (& UK) forces.
 
I think that guy will live with his actions for the rest of his life and I doubt he would do the same again. Prison wouldn't make any difference.

Seems like the whole culture is fucked up - congratulations for a "first kill" might be understandable if it was an enemy fighter killed, but when it's an innocent person that's really fucked up.

Just as the actions of a few extremists have affected some people's view of all Muslims, the actions of these guys and others certainly affects the view people have of US (& UK) forces.

This is what happens when you train a mentally unstable person to be a warrior. It happens in every army in the world. Some soldiers can't handle the stresses of war like others can. Unfortunately some of these guys slip through the safeguards that the military has in place to prevent them from joining.

The extremists are different in that they are "trained" to be killers by their society and religious beliefs. They are not members of an organized army that is trained to defend their countries interest.

Terrorist and soldiers are two different animals. How many of the disbanded Iraqi army are now strapping bombs to their chest and blowing up little kids. I would say a very small number.
 
I'd like to know how those guys who murdered innocent civilians are not sitting in Quantico or Leavenworth right now. Having been in, I can tell you that the rules of engagement are very strict for our side, we can't just go running around killing everyone we see. As a matter of fact we can't fire unless fired upon, which is why we often use ourselves as bait to draw fire.

I think that one Marine doing the talking went with the mindset of murder, the 'fuck you' in Arabic tattoo he had done before the war says it all.

A million troops have gone through Iraq, of those I know 3 and 1 who is in Afghanistan, I think one has seen minor action. The truth is a minority of troops see any action at all. One buddy of mine lounged around for a year smoking and eating, he actually gained weight there.
 
Many of our soldiers, who are otherwise "good" guys, unfortunately fall prey to the pack mentality causing them to do things they would never do under normal circumstances.

Seems to me that our soldiers, as well as soldiers from different regimes and time periods, are susceptible to this behavior, and therefore cannot always be judged on the merit of their actions.

Obviously what was described in the video was horrible, and to most of us inhumane, but far worse happens on a daily basis in Africa, Russia, the eastern block of Europe, Asia and god knows where else.

War isn't pretty, ever, just be glad you have a safe place to type your posts from without ducking stray bullets every second, or fearing for the safety of your family.
 
LMFAO
It literally baffles me with how niave the average american is.

If you want to run a colony, object is have as few soldiers there as possible (lots of soldiers there are expensive which cuts into the colonies profitability) and terrorise the population so they do not attempt to rise up.

So when the french occupied vietnam. Recruit mercenaries (french foriegn legion) after WW2 1/2 of the legion was filled full of ex-SS and other germans who where wanted for war crimes. On every major road/highway every 1 mile construct a guard tower, stick in it 2 guys with a machine gun. Anyone on the road after dark shoot them. Every 20 miles construct a fort stick in it a platoon of men. That way if the guys in the guard tower have too much trouble send the platoon out to mop up.

You can see that the french where able to control vietnam with 20K soldiers which the americans could not do with 500K.

Philippines under the spanish (until USA buy PH off the spanish).
Also while PH was a USA colony the natives where constantly trying to drive out the americans.
Spanish method.
Inpose on the locals a stupid religion that makes them pacifistic.
Make it a law that all natives can not wear shirts, or if they do wear a shirt it must be see thru, so they can not hide weapons Barong Tagalog - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Do not allow natives to sit on tables/chairs to drive the point home that the white man is superior.
If a native looks at a white man (spaniard incorrectly) does not address him properly etc, he will be flogged.
Anything to condition into the locals that the white man is superior and they are garbage must be done.
Foriegners who visit PH are always amazed how polite/helpful the filipino is to them. Guess what asshole 300 years of conditioning.
Racism Among Filipinos
Ironically the americans who during thier 60 years of colonization who did things like construct schools, build hospitals try to make the locals lives better are viewed as garbage.


Wakeup USA. If you want to be a world power, and have colonies etc. Well then this is what you have to do. If not then pull out of all the countries which you occupy, go back home, and resume the isolationist policy USA had in the past.
 
What he did was terrible but he is the exception rather than the rule. You are correct an Iraqi citizen is going to HATE any US soldier for his actions but what about those that LOVE the US soldier for saving his child from a stray mortar etc.

No one was firing mortars, suicide bombing, or mass murdering in Iraq until we arrived. Sure, Saddam was killing a few hundred people a year, but that's quite a but different than the few thousand women and children we kill every month.

So, following your above stated logic, you agree that Iraqis should hate us because we kill them, they kill us, so we kill more of them, creating and inspiring terrorists which kill us and innocents, and in turn we kill them and innocents.

It's all our fault. Period.
 
Many of our soldiers, who are otherwise "good" guys, unfortunately fall prey to the pack mentality causing them to do things they would never do under normal circumstances.

Anyone who falls 'prey' to pack mentality is pathetic and useless to begin with, and cannot possibly be a 'good guy'.
 

That is a very interesting way of looking at things. If soldiers are in foreign countries, they will be hated regardless. So why not rule with an iron fist and demand respect as they will not give it willingly.

We should only have our military inside our borders (my opinion). When there is fighting that we HAVE TO BE INVOLVED IN, go kick ass and demand respect.

hmmm, this sounds relatively rough around the edges but I'll give it some time to settle in. I know that war is ugly regardless how you slice it.

Now get back to your campaigns you slack ass, wanna be lobbyist, internet marketers.
 
That is a very interesting way of looking at things. If soldiers are in foreign countries, they will be hated regardless. So why not rule with an iron fist and demand respect as they will not give it willingly.

We should only have our military inside our borders (my opinion). When there is fighting that we HAVE TO BE INVOLVED IN, go kick ass and demand respect.

hmmm, this sounds relatively rough around the edges but I'll give it some time to settle in. I know that war is ugly regardless how you slice it.

Now get back to your campaigns you slack ass, wanna be lobbyist, internet marketers.

America, Fuck Yeah! hehe

I doubt the suggestion to use 19th century colonial methods was a serious one, but regardless...

You emphasise HAVE TO BE INVOLVED IN and that's where the shit will always be. Politicians continually succeed in convincing the sheeple that they HAVE TO BE INVOLVED IN the latest war.

From the colonial conflicts through to Vietnam and now Iraq our leaders have sold the line that this is something we HAVE TO BE INVOLVED IN. It might take a bit more to sell the story than it did a couple of centuries ago but they still keep selling the same line, "This is something we HAVE TO BE INVOLVED IN".
 
No one was firing mortars, suicide bombing, or mass murdering in Iraq until we arrived. Sure, Saddam was killing a few hundred people a year, but that's quite a but different than the few thousand women and children we kill every month.

So, following your above stated logic, you agree that Iraqis should hate us because we kill them, they kill us, so we kill more of them, creating and inspiring terrorists which kill us and innocents, and in turn we kill them and innocents.

It's all our fault. Period.


I can take ANY lefty loon statement..but I cannot take that one. "ITS OUR FAULT".

Thats the most fucked up stupid ass extremist left statement anyone can make. So I guess the 3000+ that were murdered in the WTC died because it was thier fault? What about the little Iraqi kids that get thier heads blown off by a suicide bomber? thier fault right??

You can blame the US and I will blame any more deaths by extremist on appologist like yourself. You are the reason we have to go into warzones with one hand tied behind our back instead of going in and getting the shit over with.

WTF: when I am worked up I cant spell worth a shit!
 
I can take ANY lefty loon statement..but I cannot take that one. "ITS OUR FAULT".

Thats the most fucked up stupid ass extremist left statement anyone can make. So I guess the 3000+ that were murdered in the WTC died because it was thier fault? What about the little Iraqi kids that get thier heads blown off by a suicide bomber? thier fault right??

You can blame the US and I will blame any more deaths by extremist on appologist like yourself. You are the reason we have to go into warzones with one hand tied behind our back instead of going in and getting the shit over with.

WTF: when I am worked up I cant spell worth a shit!

It is the fault of the leaders of the US (& UK, etc) and if you believe that America and the UK are true democracies then yes it is your fault and mine.

I personally don't think our systems are really democratic, so I don't blame the voters. Our leaders however should be on trial in The Hague.
 
America, Fuck Yeah! hehe
I doubt the suggestion to use 19th century colonial methods was a serious one, but regardless...
I think that every US leader should be forced to live in a former colony for 5 years. Not with the ruling class as is often the case, but with the local peoples to see how the situation really is.

PH is a land of extremes. On one hand malls that sell real cartier watches for $5K. These malls are huge, and luxary malls, that make most american malls look like garbage. Houses with only 2-3 occupants, but with literally and army of servants. Ironically on the road there are more luxary cars like BMW,Audis,Mercedies,Bently,Jaguars etc then in USA.
On the other hand slums that are so huge .....
Very rarely do the foriegn politicians see those areas, and they never interact with the people.

I love the philippines, and I love the filipino people, but they can be extremely agravating at times.

I have a 2 1/2 year old son. He looks mestizo Filipino mestizo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia . Prime example of how thinks are so ingrained into the people that they do not realize they are even doing it. My son goes to play school. He sees a toy which another child is playing with, he just goes and grabs it. My child should be the one getting shit. But no the mother or nanny will give the other child shit, you give that toy to my son. He goes to the mall we rent a battery operated car you can drive arround. My son goes and rear ends another car. But it is not my son's fault, the car giver gives the other child shit for "driving too slow" and being in the way. He then goes and runs his car into a food stand almost knocking it over. Again it is not my fault. I attempt to correct these problems and tell the people that this should not be, but you learn in the filipines you have to do baby steps, work very slowly :)

One of the best things in asia ironically was the japanese occupation. In places like singapore,hong kong etc, the white ruling class was humiliated breaking the "white superiority myth". Unfortunately in PH because it is so vast, except for major centers like manila etc, probably most of the country did not even realize the gov't had changed :).

Hiring local people for americans especially can be troubling. Americans attempt to treat thier help properly, call me Joe :). Since the locals are so used to being abused, they do not know how to cope. They will no longer "respect" you, as a result they will steal, and in extreme cases kill you. It is sad, but help must at all times call you "Sir" otherwise you will have a problem. (I learned this the hard way :)).

Democracy is a great thing. But for most people, they have no idea what democracy is. It is a foreign concept, it is like trying to explain to an american how a hex can kill you :). Also thanx to american propaganda, the locals have this idea that magically democracy will fix all thier problems, it will get them a good job, a proper house to live in etc. When these things do not instantly happen, they become mad at the americans. They do not realize that these things take time.

Most of the country is catholic. In many ways it is like the middle ages. People kiss the priests ring etc. You can go to the church and get holy water, which will be used to drive away evil spirits etc. Literally you can send a container to the church, they fill it up with holy water, and u take it home no joke. In fairness the younger priests (the under 40 crowd) are attempting reform. But like everything, it is progresses slowly :). In PH if you wish to cope, you must learn patience.

On the positive side in PH there is a slowly growing middle class from call-centers/help desk etc. (500K+ people are employed in call centers etc).
These people are educated, and slowly changing.

Also there are millions of Overseas workers. They send much needed money back to thier families, but most importantly when they come back to the filipines, they bring with them western ideas etc.

Things are getting better in PH, but it will take a long time. As i said you learn patience here :). Americans on the other hand are very impatient, they go to a place like iraq, bring in foreign ideas like democracy and are perplexed when the local people do not understand. Meanwhile they learn little about the native peoples, and worse yet insult them by putting down thier religion etc. How would you feel if someone came to your country. This person has never read the bible. He then just misquotes passages from the bible like how noah had sex with his daughters. How in the bible it states that it is ok to kill non-believers etc. And then assumes that all christians are like the KKK or white supremisits.

Americans are good people, but they are too impatient :). Seriously in iraq, they would have to work on the problem for over 50+ years (enuff time for the older generation to die out). Also they should start with really simple things, and then work thier way up. Patience :)
 
erect: Not necessarily. Australia has a rather large "peace keeping" force in Papua New Guinea. Theoretically, it's there to do humanitarian work, and they do do a lot of it. Some 70% of the troops there are actually engineering corp.
The local populations love our troops, according to my friends that have served, as Australia's military has actually managed to provide to villages in PNG what America's was meant to in Iraq. Sanitation, infrastructure, medical and educational facilities, etc...
(They're actually there to ensure that Australia can continue to take oil and gas from fields that are clearly in PNGs territory though)
Don't forget that Iraq was possibly one of the most well developed mid Eastern nation (after places like Israel and the UAE) until 2003...

Popeye: Interestingly enough, Iraq is pretty much the only country in the mid East that wasn't involved in the WTC attacks... Probably because Saddam was well aware of what the repercussions could be. After all, he WAS installed by the US Government, he could be (and was) just as easily deposed.
 
nop_90: Thank you. I'd never considered that people could actually prefer (wrong word really) to be treated as second class citizens, but can see how it could happen in any culture where they aren't encouraged to think for themselves. You've pushed The Philippines higher up my places to see list and made me think a lot more about the effects of outsourcing...! Cheers for that post man!
 
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