U.S. Debt Ceiling Unconstitutional?

[JakeStratham]

I don't know if any of you are still following this, but check this out:

First, a recap:

If the U.S. misses a debt payment on August 4th, Standard & Poor's and Moody's are gonna downgrade us (S&P pretty severely). That would cause a few problems. lol

The current fight in D.C. is whether we should just borrow more cash to pay our bills (an oversimplification, obviously). Unfortunately, there's a pesky ceiling over which we're not supposed to borrow. So, the question has become (again): let's raise the ceiling (again).

The Republicans say "no way." The Democrats say "do it!"

And so the negotiations have continued.

Apparently, the Democrats* are seriously considering another option: just declare the debt ceiling unconstitutional. This option has been floated before, but is gaining steam.

From the piece:

The argument is based on the wording of the 14th Amendment: "The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned." Simply saying the debt ceiling is unconstitutional would allow the government to pay its bills while "leaving Tea Party-backed Republicans in the difficult position of arguing against the plain wording of the Constitution,"

This is essentially like a guy with a Capital One credit card saying, "Just get rid of the limit on my card. I promise not to borrow too much."

If the ceiling goes away, that might be all she wrote. I won't bore you with the details. Suffice to say, it's not like the knuckleheads some of you have sent to D.C. will suddenly act responsibly. lol

* This ain't a partisan issue. Everyone here knows that most Republicans are fine with borrowing, too. They just do it for different reasons.

 

[erect]

What do you expect? US gotta kill brown people.

That is interesting to think of where printing will go once the ceiling is gone.

 

[Andrew Scherer]

Hey, we amend the constitution with retarded shit all the time. Why not ?

/sarcasm

 

[Moxie]

Rand Paul, as usual, has been one of the lone voices of reason suggesting a logical compromise :

"We've doubled military spending. I believe in a strong national defense, but conservatives will have to compromise and we will have to cut military spending. Liberals will have to compromise and we will have to cut domestic welfare. "

* This ain't a partisan issue.

Yup...

"This is the first time in recent history (the past decade or so) that no Republican has voted for the increase. In fact, on most of the ten other votes to increase the federal debt limit that the Senate has taken since 1997, the Republicans provided the majority of the votes in favor."

The Republicans Haven't Always Been Against Raising the Debt Ceiling - Blog - OpenCongress

 

[hellblazer]

They're getting desperate because it looks like the Repubs might actually stand firm on this.

Personally, I'm shocked Boehner chickened out of the government "shutdown", but he knows he's toast if he allows the ceiling to be lifted without major spending cuts.

 

[cougarclaws]

fuckin lol'd at tag

 

[music4mic]

It would almost be a joke the anyone, save a very few of congress, started paying attention to the Constitution.

I also laugh when Dems and Pubs start pointing fingers. It's a fucking joke: biggest spender of all time: Obama. In 2nd place and former champion: Dubya.

How about we about we get rid of the debt ceiling, but only let the treasury coin and print sound money. Once we create some kind of a standard again (gold or otherwise), there is no choice but to live within our means and cut spending from every corner of the budget.

 

[lukep]

If the debt ceiling is declared unconstitutional; you can bet your white asses that Moodys will instantly declare the US Downgraded.

WTF are these modern dems thinking? That's no compromise... It's not like Obama or any politician for that matter can walk over to wall street and say "Oh, but it's unconstitutional now! You can't do that!" They'd laugh him right off the island. The biz world does whatever the fuck it wants to.

 

[Sharksfan]

The President can't just declare something unconstitutional.

The fastest thing he could do would be to ask the Attorney General to sue on behalf of the executive branch saying the bill is unconstitutional. After that they could ask SCOTUS to take the case as an emergency and rule ASAP.

If - and it's a HUGE if - SCOTUS actually took the case what are the odds they would rule in favor of the law being unconstitutional? I think it is pretty unlikely. The Roberts court has stated unequivocally that their aim is to garner consensus by having VERY narrow ruling. In this case it would be much easier for them either reject it up front or kick it back to Congress for a do-over then to rule it unconstitutional.

 

[MSTeacher]

If the U.S. misses a debt payment on August 4th, Standard & Poor's and Moody's are gonna downgrade us (S&P pretty severely). That would cause a few problems. lol

Because who better than Wall Street cronies to judge the fiscal integrity of sovereign nations. The same douchebags who said Lehman, Bear, yes, go, buy buy buy, A plus, until four seconds before bust a few years ago. These people need to be in jail under rico and worse. Fuckers.

lol at these stupid fuckers with toxic blown out black hole derivatives and superduperAplus ratings threatening nations with their fucking credit scores. hurr pot and fucking kettle durr*

I believe in a strong national defense, but conservatives will have to compromise and we will have to cut military spending. Liberals will have to compromise and we will have to cut domestic welfare. "

Because military spending and domestic welfare are apples to apples on the scales of profit motives and the value of human life.

*not picking on you, just frustrated with the system.

 

[DocApocalypto]

how could the 14th Amendment apply? Unless you raise the ceiling, the debt is not incurred. What this is saying is that it would be unconstitutional to default on the existing debts, not to decide not to take on more.

Leave it to Democrats to completely not understand the Constitution and/or want to interpret it to fit their current schemes.

If anything, the Republicans should argue that the Dems are setting us up to have to violate the 14th Amendment.

Also, one correction. Republicans are not really saying "no way". When it comes down to raising it, most cave. Its bullshit. Establishment Republicans know that they have to spend money like drunken sailors when in power and talk about fiscal responsibility when you have no power (the Ryan budget)

RON PAUL 2012 OR BUST

 

[lukep]

Because who better than Wall Street cronies to judge the fiscal integrity of sovereign nations. The same douchebags who said Lehman, Bear, yes, go, buy buy buy, A plus, until four seconds before bust a few years ago. These people need to be in jail under rico and worse. Fuckers.

lol at these stupid fuckers with toxic blown out black hole derivatives and superduperAplus ratings threatening nations with their fucking credit scores. hurr pot and fucking kettle durr

Do you just not get that Wall Street Cronies can pick up and operate in London or Hong Kong or Moscow by this time tomorrow if they don't like the aroma of Washington's latest ruleset?

If murder for profit wasn't against the law everywhere, they'd probably set up shop in a country that allows it instead of here.

That's just the nature of Business... Get used to it. (Or somehow pass a law worldwide to stop it. But even then the weaker countries couldn't enforce the law...)

 

[chini]

Didn't Obama vote against the debt ceiling increase under Bush when it was like 8 Trillion.

Printing money is worse then defaulting. Defaulting will have a short-term negative impact, but in the long-run its much better then printing more money.

 

[MSTeacher]

Do you just not get that Wall Street Cronies can pick up and operate in London or Hong Kong or Moscow by this time tomorrow if they don't like the aroma of Washington's latest ruleset?

Of course I get that but it's really not difficult to legislate them out of effect so they're inconsequential. You make it sound like they're all powerful and will do what they do no matter what. That's just not true and pretty much defeatest thinking.

Nationalize the Fed + Glass-Steagall + capital controls + exchange controls + regulate derivatives + no IMF/World Bank. Problem is pretty much solved.

Printing money is worse then defaulting. Defaulting will have a short-term negative impact, but in the long-run its much better then printing more money.

You know not of what you speak. Default = IMF and the IMF up in your shit is worse than pretty much anything.

Print money and invest it in, oh, I don't know, maybe something like production and equipment, medical research, something other than fictitious paper, something with a real roi.

 

[d_diggler]

Nationalize the Fed + Glass-Steagall + capital controls + exchange controls + regulate derivatives + no IMF/World Bank. Problem is pretty much solved.

What?

Print money and invest it in, oh, I don't know, maybe something like production and equipment, medical research, something other than fictitious paper, something with a real roi.

Look how well this worked for Japan.

Economies ran and would run just fine witout governments.

 

[lukep]

Of course I get that but it's really not difficult to legislate them out of effect so they're inconsequential. You make it sound like they're all powerful and will do what they do no matter what. That's just not true and pretty much defeatest thinking.

Legislate them out of effect? Really?

You live in a republic, not a true democracy at all. You can put big fucking bird into washington if you want but you can't stop him from acting under the incredible pressures of lobbyists and party rules once there.

Until you understand the difference and get that FACT in your head you're going to keep banging your head on the wall thinking that it's possible to change LAWS, not just the nameplates of your elected officials.

For the record, money equals power. Wall street has the money. Worse still, they don't have the responsibility that any other US-invested corps have. You can say they aren't "All powerful" all you want but in the world of business and politics, there is no better, safer, sure-to-win-without-any-risk place to be.

Nationalize the Fed + Glass-Steagall + capital controls + exchange controls + regulate derivatives + no IMF/World Bank. Problem is pretty much solved.

If we somehow got someone like Ron Paul into the Oval Office and he was intent on nationalizing the fed, the people with REAL power, (in this case the heads of all the biggest banks and the IMF) have a huge playbook in which to shut him down with.

A revolution ain't going to help you much either. These powerful banks would relocate to another country for a few years while the bullets fly, and then all of the sudden pop back in and use their same incredible influence to bend the laws their way in the next country that resides here.

Just like they did in Lincoln's time.

 

[blogginginc]

All this will end once the dollars starts collapsing abruptly. Of course, since China growths thanks to the US purchasing all the cheap crap they produce, the second biggest economy in the world will stop as well.

After that expect a third world war to reactive the engine once again, this time comes with multiple nuclear weapons falling on all major countries though.

 

[JakeStratham]

Not to interrupt the discourse, but here's an interesting tidbit...

As you know, one of the effects of default is higher interest rates. But talk of rates usually causes people's eyes to glaze over, unless we're talking about their credit cards and mortgages. (Plus, rates are wonky because they're manipulated.)

Having said that, here's a glimpse at the effect of a 1% increase...

(Warning: the link below is a 500-page PDF. The interesting tidbit is found in the middle of page 23 (37 of 498). The chart is titled, "Sensitivity of the Budget to Economic Assumptions.")

http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/budget/fy2012/assets/spec.pdf

Basically (and I'm oversimplifying again), a 1% increase in rates will cost about $1 trillion. But heck, what's another trillion amongst friends? lol

Pretty graph of U.S. debt:

Edit: I laugh every time I read that tag.

 

[lukep]

All this will end once the dollars starts collapsing abruptly. Of course, since China growths thanks to the US purchasing all the cheap crap they produce, the second biggest economy in the world will stop as well.

Nah, they sell to the whole world, not just to the US. It will be a bad day for rubber chickens and plastic Yo-yo merchants though...

Although China is still technically the #2 economy (between nations... Many corps like GE have far larger Economies) they are well on track to surpassing us in 2012.

Further, the old indicators of what makes an economy #1 doesn't live up to modern day standards... Many economists say that for all modern purposes, China has been #1 for a while now. They certainly are in influence.

After that expect a third world war to reactive the engine once again, this time comes with multiple nuclear weapons falling on all major countries though.

Nukes are in no ones' interest, especially not the ppl (read heads of the top economies like GE) who control the most money and power.

It simply puts too much of a hurt on profits. So does letting the USA fall too abruptly.

I expect things will get worse gradually and then stop getting worse once we've equalized economies (per headcount) with other players like the EU, Russia, and Oz... The people in charge don't need us getting worse than them. China will take our place as their new source of cash but they still would seem to need the US to stay on the map.

 

[Kiopa_Matt]

The US could probably be out of debt within 10 years if it wanted, but none of the politicians want that. Cut military spending by say 30%, raise taxes on the wealthiest back up to like 70% where it was before (when things were great), legalize and tax marijuana, disband the entire Homeland Security dept and TSA (we got on just fine without them before), etc.