U.S. Debt Ceiling Unconstitutional?

lukep said:
Legislate them out of effect? Really?
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yeah really. you know, legislation. that stuff around which organized civilization has been built the last several thousand years.

You live in a republic, not a true democracy at all. You can put big fucking bird into washington if you want but you can't stop him from acting under the incredible pressures of lobbyists and party rules once there.
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republic > democracy

you're going to keep banging your head on the wall thinking that it's possible to change LAWS, not just the nameplates of your elected officials.
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i'd rather be banging my head against a wall than resigning myself to a perceived reality that fulfills itself into being by the belief i give it.

If we somehow got someone like Ron Paul into the Oval Office and he was intent on nationalizing the fed, the people with REAL power, (in this case the heads of all the biggest banks and the IMF) have a huge playbook in which to shut him down with.
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yup. bullets included in this playbook if necessary.

A revolution ain't going to help you much either. These powerful banks would relocate to another country for a few years while the bullets fly, and then all of the sudden pop back in and use their same incredible influence to bend the laws their way in the next country that resides here.

Just like they did in Lincoln's time.
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Yup. They wouldn't even relocate. They'd be here financing both sides. They want war and fragmentation. They'd love a civil war. Divide and conquer. Just like they did in Lincoln's time.
 


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Glad i'm not american, you're even more fucked than we are. In my opinion, Quantitative easing did not work here (Money went straight to banks to cover as internal assets and was not lent out).

In terms of the defaulting / printing more money (quantitative easing), defaulting would remove all trust of lending in the future, foreign markets will have huge troubles (Look at what Greece alone is doing to the EU) and because of this the US may lose their markets and even more money. However printing more money would also not work if it went straight to the banks as this money would mostly just cover the bank's assets to keep them safe. It could also cause an inflation rise if more money is lent by banks after this.

MSTeacher is right about war in a way, it's not just the financial sector that would enjoy it, the whole US is based around war, it is just the same as any other imperialist superpower was 100 years ago.

Oh and I would hardly call America a democracy. Hypocrisy is close enough.
 
Kiopa_Matt said:
raise taxes on the wealthiest back up to like 70% where it was before (when things were great),
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I have no issues with the rest but ... really?

There was little taxation during the guilded age, which is by far the most prosperous time during our history.

The Gilded Age is most famous for the creation of a modern industrial economy. During the 1870s and 1880s, the U.S. economy grew at the fastest rate in its history, with real wages, wealth, GDP, and capital formation all increasing rapidly. For example, between 1865 and 1898, the output of wheat increased by 256%, corn by 222%, coal by 800% and miles of railway track by 567%
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And the truth shall set you free.


lukep said:
Just like they did in Lincoln's time.
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Pretty sure the economy was relying on gold backed bank notes at that point. Jackson killed Bank II in 1841 and the fed wasn't created until 1913 ... there was no centralized dollar at that time and people relied on a bank's brand trust for security. The extent of their power during Lincoln's time was offering high interest rates to fund the north, which led to Lincoln giving them the finger and printing his own greenbacks.
 
MSTeacher said:
Yup. They wouldn't even relocate. They'd be here financing both sides. They want war and fragmentation. They'd love a civil war. Divide and conquer. Just like they did in Lincoln's time.
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You think people these days wouldn't go after the bankers instead of fighting each other? Yea right... in bankers' dreams maybe.
 
jenzkc said:
You think people these days wouldn't go after the bankers instead of fighting each other? Yea right... in bankers' dreams maybe.
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Have you looked around lately? That's exactly what people do. "God damn Democrats / Republicans, don't know shit". You even had FOX News for a while convince people that the economy is the teacher's fault, because the average teacher with salary + benefits makes a whopping $70k/year.

erect said:
I have no issues with the rest but ... really?

There was little taxation during the guilded age, which is by far the most prosperous time during our history.
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Ok, maybe I don't know my US history as well as I should. How about this then? 70% tax rate for the wealthiest, with large tax breaks for every job in the US they create. Structure it so if they create enough jobs within the US, they could end up paying a very small rate, and maybe even get a refund. Ship those jobs to Bangledesh though, then sell to US consumers? Fuck you, pay up!

The US has bridges that are literally falling into the river, sewer systems that should have been upgraded decades ago, education system that's falling apart, etc. Going to need tax money from somewhere.

PS. I don't think you can compare the economies of 1870 - 1880 to nowadays very well. Didn't even have cars back then, and just look at the globalization of nowadays.
 
Kiopa_Matt said:
PS. I don't think you can compare the economies of 1870 - 1880 to nowadays very well. Didn't even have cars back then, and just look at the globalization of nowadays.
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Why not? Did they not trade currency for goods back then? Pretty sure supply and demand behaved the same way too.

Globalization doesn't make a difference, actually, it should make it easier to prosper.

The biggest difference between the 1870 -1880's and today, is we use more paper to write bills, regulations, and print worthless currency than they probably used in that whole decade.
 
jenzkc said:
You think people these days wouldn't go after the bankers instead of fighting each other? Yea right... in bankers' dreams maybe.
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hope you're right

Kiopa_Matt said:
the average teacher with salary + benefits makes a whopping $70k/year.
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lol cut that in half and you're closer to the truth.

The US has bridges that are literally falling into the river, sewer systems that should have been upgraded decades ago, education system that's falling apart, etc. Going to need tax money from somewhere.
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don't necessarily need tax money, just money. If only there had been a few trillion dollars of cheap credit made available for projects like this in the last few years...
 
Napolean said:
Why not? Did they not trade currency for goods back then? Pretty sure supply and demand behaved the same way too.
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Right, but back then you couldn't get your supply from 20,000kms away at 30% of the cost.

Napolean said:
Globalization doesn't make a difference, actually, it should make it easier to prosper.
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For some people, but not for the majority. People who can take advantage of the cheap labor 3rd world countries offer can do quite well for themselves, yes. The rest get fucked, because they're competing for jobs with people who's monthly expenses are about 4% of theirs. If you're monthly expenses are only $80 versus $1700, you'll be more than happy to work for less than the other guy.
 
MSTeacher said:
If only there had been a few trillion dollars of cheap credit made available for projects like this in the last few years...
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heh, true enough. I'm assuming that one will go down in the history books as one of the biggest heists in US history.
 
Napolean said:
Why not? Did they not trade currency for goods back then? Pretty sure supply and demand behaved the same way too.
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but that's not even close to a complete economic portrait of today. There were no multinationals the size of several countries, no complex derivatives markets, no flash trading, no supercomputer models, no world government, no world bank.

Globalization doesn't make a difference, actually, it should make it easier to prosper.
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wat
 
Kiopa_Matt said:
Ok, maybe I don't know my US history as well as I should. How about this then? 70% tax rate for the wealthiest, with large tax breaks for every job in the US they create. Structure it so if they create enough jobs within the US, they could end up paying a very small rate, and maybe even get a refund. Ship those jobs to Bangledesh though, then sell to US consumers? Fuck you, pay up!

The US has bridges that are literally falling into the river, sewer systems that should have been upgraded decades ago, education system that's falling apart, etc. Going to need tax money from somewhere.
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Sounds like you've got some great socialist policies ... Your platform would be very popular in America circa 2011.

Kiopa_Matt said:
PS. I don't think you can compare the economies of 1870 - 1880 to nowadays very well. Didn't even have cars back then, and just look at the globalization of nowadays.
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They also had almost zero skilled labor and were writing the book on how the new world does business. Once upon a time, limitations and hardships defined the American culture and fueled it's success. Overcoming adversity breeds heroes .... and creates fortunes. Americans have only been concerned with a handout for the past 100 years.
 
Kiopa_Matt said:
Right, but back then you couldn't get your supply from 20,000kms away at 30% of the cost.
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Call me crazy, but I think that's an improvement. I must be living on the wrong planet.

Kiopa_Matt said:
For some people, but not for the majority. People who can take advantage of the cheap labor 3rd world countries offer can do quite well for themselves, yes. The rest get fucked, because they're competing for jobs with people who's monthly expenses are about 4% of theirs. If you're monthly expenses are only $80 versus $1700, you'll be more than happy to work for less than the other guy.
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You could have given the same sob story to the horse and buggy industry when the automobile was invented, and you would be crying again a few years later when the trucking industry overtakes the railroad industry.

What I don't understand is how we complain about third world labor and their expenses being so low, while at the same time, people insist we need to redistribute the wealth to these same countries.

Looks to me like the free market is taking care of that, and they said capitalism was heartless! It's taken us this far, lets see what else it can do.

Human beings are extremely adaptable. If you buy in to the story that not "cooling things down" for the sake of the people, will end in people going hungry and dying in the streets, you either have no confidence in yourself, or you have no confidence in anyone else.

Either way, your letting a bad attitude dictate how you think the world should be run. The problem is, if you are wrong, everybody suffers until society collapses. If I'm wrong, people only suffer until they do what human beings were built to do. Adapt.
 
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Kiopa_Matt said:
The US has bridges that are literally falling into the river, sewer systems that should have been upgraded decades ago, education system that's falling apart, etc. Going to need tax money from somewhere.
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This is or was about the federal debt, though. All those things you mention used to be handled solely at state and local levels, where they are not suppose to be allowed to run up big debts. Maybe the education system used to have a better reputation, but also know that the department of education wasn't created until around 1980.
 
Yeah then if that fails they'll just tell the fed to print more money to pay the bills and fuck us with inflation.
 
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