USPS paying people $25/hour to do nothing, unions, etc

There is a reason why white collar workers don't have unions. They don't need it because they are productive, and they don't have to use collective bargaining or violence as leverage tactics to earn more than the market rate of labor.

o rly?

If you understand market economics, you understand that labor is just another factor of production, and it is competitive. Where labor if valuable (skilled and productive) it will be bid up by competing firms, and where it is less valuable or in greater supply than demand, it will be bid down, until some sort of quasi-equilibrium will be met.
If you understand labor history, you understand that industry leaders enjoy racing to the bottom, creating oligopolies, fixing labor rates, and driving wages down to intolerable levels, and it is anti-competitive. The gun held to the head of the employer by the union representative or government official refusing to allow the company to act on its own behalf is a response to the gun held to the head of the poor uneducated worker with one skill set, three hiring companies to choose from, and a government refusing to advocate for his well being or force more competition in the market.

Unions seek to circumvent the market process
They're not the only ones

I know of enough union violence against people and property to have a bad taste in my mouth from such an organization.
Same here and so do many others but they don't paint them with the same broad brush of generalization that you do.

A civilized world can't come about until people understand what makes peace work, and it isn't threatening someone to pay you more, or threatening to beat up replacement workers.
Nor is it renumerating people as little as possible nor threatening to replace them if they demand living wages.

It can come from people understanding that where there is no demand for their labor at a higher wage, they need to create their own employment, or enhance the productivity of their labor.
yeah that's all fine and dandy but creating new employment and enhancing productivity don't just manifest themselves into being. And until these and other ends are more readily attainable people will otherwise devise means of coping with the circumstances in which they find themselves operating. Which is if course a healthy part of the origin of unions.

"Competition has been shown to be useful up to a certain point and no further, but cooperation, which is the thing we must strive for today, begins where competition leaves off."
 


I find it fucking HILARIOUS that none of you are willing to touch my Unions=Communism assertion.

It's like I put a damned invisibility cloak over those posts above...

Why? Because people who are OK with the existence of unions are in the exact same denial as people who believe in the supernatural. They KNOW that communism and business don't play well and eventually all will fail...

But it's too uncomfortable to think about it and hence the denial sets in...

Reminds me of the last religion thread we had!
 
I find it fucking HILARIOUS that none of you are willing to touch my Unions=Communism assertion.

It's like I put a damned invisibility cloak over those posts above...

Why? Because people who are OK with the existence of unions are in the exact same denial as people who believe in the supernatural. They KNOW that communism and business don't play well and eventually all will fail...

But it's too uncomfortable to think about it and hence the denial sets in...

Reminds me of the last religion thread we had!

My god beat up your god. That's why you don't believe in him any more.
 
I find it fucking HILARIOUS that none of you are willing to touch my Unions=Communism assertion.

not with a ten foot pole dude. Waaaay too big a topic, I have work to do. And I'm a capitalism hating commie pinko so I have to work three times harder to make my monies :(
 
I am not talking about dictionaries, I am talking about unions.

I've conceded that your points would apply to many modern unions or at least the system that the government provides for them. Once again though, when people put down "companies", you in that instance go by the dictionary definition, and even will expand it to imagine how companies would exist in a true free market.

I see basketball players still using collective bargaining in a real free market, and while that may drive up ticket prices, I don't see anything morally wrong with people coming together in that manner - which in our society is defined as a "labor union."

The CEO of Walmart negotiating for a higher salary would also, in theory, drive up prices and leave Walmart with less money to hire more workers. You have no problem with individuals or companies looking out for their own interests, but when workers come together and do the same, suddenly you do?

I am always against the state, against violence, and always for property rights.

That doesn't change if it is a business or a union or any other organization or individual.
Companies and individuals have gained unfair advantages from the state, they have murdered and burned houses down, and they have violated property rights. You don't label them all with a broad brush though and have objected when others do.
 
...one of the foremost goals of communism is to bring about the end of wage labor, whereas a union's whole reason for existence is ostensibly to collectively negotiate the specifics of wage labor with management.

Unions literally can not exist in a communist system by definition. Not only are they not equal, but one seeks to destroy the other.
Wow, I thought you'd know what Communism was... I guess some people need a refresher course:

Wikipedia said:
Communism is a sociopolitical movement that aims for a classless and stateless society structured upon common ownership of the means of production....
Sound a little familiar? Commies are all about making sure everyone inside the group is of the same class and gets paid the same (fair) amount.

From the perspective of a business owner, you simply cannot afford to pay all of your employees the same or even a tiered wage. The most talented employees will surely walk, and you'll be paying the slackers way too much of your earnings.

It's NOT COMPATIBLE with capitalism. It will cause the business to fail because of Severely increased inefficiencies. -Didn't that happen somewhere in 1991?

If it walks like a duck, and looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck... It's a fucking duck!
 
^ UPS union members don't own the means of production and they don't all get paid the same. Pay raises based on seniority would not exist under communism because that would make the older people a higher class.
 
^ UPS union members don't own the means of production and they don't all get paid the same. Pay raises based on seniority would not exist under communism because that would make the older people a higher class.
Such trifling details.

Sure some unions are "less communistic" than others, but the end result is the same, they are anti-capitalism nonetheless.

Some ducks have different patterns in their feathers, but they still go quack.
 
Is the NBA players union against capitalism? Do they think all players or all humans should get paid the same to play basketball?
 
Is the NBA players union against capitalism?
Yes.

Do they think all players or all humans should get paid the same to play basketball?
To a much smaller degree, they do work towards equalization of the payments between union members... They just seem capitalistic to you because they are greedy.

Communists could be greedy, but they sure didn't help their cause that way.
 
I proved to you that they are not all cartels. Open shop unions allow the owner to hire non union workers. Open shop unions DO NOT try to create a monopoly on the market. Therefore, they are not a cartel.
They seek to monopolize labor negotiations regardless of whether the shop is open or not.

When all this is pointed out, you basically say 'well I have seen some unions that act in xyz manner, therefore all unions act that way'. This is a fallacy of faulty generalization.
Where did I say that? Can you source the exact passage pls?

I'm an employer, and I wouldn't hire a union worker. So in general I agree with you. But you are generalizing far too much. Like people who bash companies because some engage in 'evil conduct'. It just doesn't work.
I've made very specific economic arguments based on cartel theory, game theory, market theory and price theory. Are you going to address those, or continue to misrepresent my posts as logically fallacious?

If the latter, I will pass.
 
Teachers are white collar workers. Doctors have the AMA , lawyers have the ABA, both are basically unions, they just call them associations.
Teachers are government employees, and Doctors and Lawyers are state licensed [sic] professionals.

They aren't free market, and they use their state power to demand non-market wages.

Look, unions are great if you don't believe in competition. Just say, I don't believe in competition, and I don't want to test the market to see what it would pay, competing for my labor services. That I can understand. It's self interest. Short sighted, but self interest nonetheless.
 
If you understand labor history, you understand that industry leaders enjoy racing to the bottom, creating oligopolies, fixing labor rates, and driving wages down to intolerable levels, and it is anti-competitive.
I have posted a history of unions to this thread. You should read it. It isn't the pap they serve in school, it's written by a scholar who worked for the BLS and is well sourced.

That said, yes, there are shitty businesses who have exploited. This is why I am against the state which protects them, and regulation they write, and aggression in general.

The gun held to the head of the employer by the union representative or government official refusing to allow the company to act on its own behalf is a response to the gun held to the head of the poor uneducated worker with one skill set, three hiring companies to choose from, and a government refusing to advocate for his well being or force more competition in the market.
If you are a shitty worker with low marginal productivity, your labor simply isn't worth much. You either improve your value, or you don't get paid more. Putting a gun to someone's head to pay you more than you're worth is simply theft.

The government can advocate until they are blue in the face, but if no one wants to hire Jim Bob because he smells bad, he cant read and write and he is always late to to work, then you're simply advocating an irrational system where the successful have to carry the failures, I presume, because you see some sort of emotional narrative of we're all equal, even when we're clearly not.

Nor is it renumerating people as little as possible nor threatening to replace them if they demand living wages.
Living wages? Poor people have cell phones, sneakers and eat at restaurants. They pay no taxes, and they get tons of state subsidized services. For the shittiest of them, it is probably more lucrative not to work, than to work. Don't cry Argentina for those people.

Do businesses compete for labor and try to get cheap labor? Sure. But I have never had a problem getting a good wage way above minimum, despite having no college education or vocational training.

Why? Am I simply a superior human being?

No, because I worked as many jobs as I could, and I busted my ass. And I got my payoff, because my employers didnt want me wandering to a competitor or setting up my own business to compete with them. I had value, and they paid dearly for it.

yeah that's all fine and dandy but creating new employment and enhancing productivity don't just manifest themselves into being.
I know. I have created jobs. I have helped people earn their first independent buck. Don't tell me about the plight of the worker. These are people who make 2 or 3 times the market rate for their position, when all the benefits are rolled in. They don't make that because firms were willing to pay it, the firms pay it because the unionists flex the power of government to get more out of the company.

You wanna know why jobs head overseas? Because there, labor is competitive, and yet there, a middle class is emerging, whereas here, the jobs are leaving and the middle class is shrinking. If the system is so good for the worker, why is the worker getting fucked?

Because unions are about power and the union management getting made up jobs and money to be agitators rather than productive members of society. Union bosses are like politicians, without the constitutional mandate. Absolutely useless to society at large, and constantly trying to act in contradiction to nature and economics.
 
I'm embarrassed to say I got the urge to stick it in Rachel Maddow's pooper tonight.

Hurm. I just realized that if I wore make-up I might be able to pass myself off as rachel maddow. I mean, if I were into that sort of thing...
 
I simply pointed out that statement is ridiculous because communism seeks to destroy the very wage labor system that unions were created to collectively bargain in. In a system of communism, unions are destroyed so your statement was ignorant.
How so? Would Lebron James rather play in a full blown communist society where he got paid the same average wage as everyone else?
Both of you have some stubborn problem in your head keeping you from seeing what is plain as day.

When I say that Unions are communist, I get the feeling that you think I mean that unions are literally governments that control huge parcels of land and tax everyone on it.

Why does communism have to be an actual government? Can't a club of people get together inside the USA and do everything together the way Lenin would approve of and call themselves communists? Why would you deny them the right to be communist?

It's like Socialism. Unions can be socialist but not communist?
 
I'm embarrassed to say I got the urge to stick it in Rachel Maddow's pooper tonight.

If you're fantasizing about banging Harry Potter just come out and say it already.

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