Best take on Israel and Palestine bullshit

[babylonian]

I was merely pointing out that your "Things had been going great until Palestinian rocket attacks started up again." comment is false.

If you want to go back a little earlier than 2012 (since you posted an article from 2009 quoting stats from 2001 to present). I could bring up the 2009 Cast Lead operation, where Israel used white phosphorus and at least 800 women, children and elderly were killed. I could also talk about the 580 Palestinians including some 120 children who were killed in the course of frequent air and artillery bombardments back in 2006. I could talk about the Palestinians who died as a result of inability to reach medical care. Or maybe since you probably don't care much for Palestinians, I could mention how on March 16th 2003 an Israeli soldier driving a bulldozer crushed to death Rachel Corrie, an American nonviolent human rights protestor. Or how Tom Hurndall, a British photography student, was shot in the head by an Israeli sniper while trying to remove Palestinian children from the range of Israeli fire. There is much more I could talk about, but I doubt any of it would change your mind, would it?

Oh and I'm not anti-Israel, I doubt anybody posting on this thread so far is. I am anti-Israeli-policy when it comes to Gaza and the West Bank.

I will also leave the following here:


Norman Finkelstein

Are you American?

Were you against killing of hundreds of Iraqis, Afghans as well?
What did you do about it?

The truth is, we cannot do anything about it!

Also, if now Iraqis came to your town for revenge, and started shooting people every day, putting you potentially in harms way.

Would you just sit and say: "it's their right, they were tortured and killed by us before" or would you protect your family?

Think about it.

 

[morphy]

Are you American?

Were you against killing of hundreds of Iraqis, Afghans as well?
What did you do about it?

The truth is, we cannot do anything about it!

Also, if now Iraqis came to your town for revenge, and started shooting people every day, putting you potentially in harms way.

Would you just sit and say: "it's their right, they were tortured and killed by us before" or would you protect your family?

Think about it.

The problem I see with that idea is, you hold Hamas responsible for the deaths of Palestinian civilians, but you wouldn't hold the US government responsible in your scenario?

If I were to come to your land, destroy your wells and crops, God forbid, shoot down one of your kids. Wouldn't you be protecting your family then? The thing is, this argument goes both ways. And I'm not siding with Hamas by any means, their ways are wrong and dumb even, I just don't like double standards.

 

[MasterKey]

Its all about power. Whoever has the power will abuse it no matter if its US, Iraq, Palestine, it doesn't matter. If Palestine had such military power they would have massacred all Jews in Israel. So its a stupid argument who is more cruel and who has occupied land.

 

[babylonian]

The problem I see with that idea is, you hold Hamas responsible for the deaths of Palestinian civilians, but you wouldn't hold the US government responsible in your scenario?

Me too, all against double standards.

And where did I say or how did you conclude that I wouldn't hold US gov responsible??

 

[greenleaves]

So by that example, the US should have sunk a few Japanese ships and been done with it after Pearl harbor?

ITT - In This Thread (forums)

Carry on...

 

[richcam]

As much as it pains me to say, there is no other solution than Israel (being the stronger country) to take over all Palestinian land and just put it all under Israel as one nation. All Palestinian will be given equal rights as Israelis (its not gonna be easy but its probably has better chance than if Israelis were to be put under a Palestinian state, they probably just going to kill them all).

By doing so Israel will not be seen as a Jewish state that everyone in the middle east hate anymore since some population will be Arabs just like them.

Sounds pretty harsh but its better that perpetual war until one of the group dies off, and its probably be the Palestinian that perish what with all the tanks and nukes the Israelis have not to mention the US support.

 

[Moxie]

What if you lived in Arkansas or Louisiana yourself? Would that personally affect you and piss you off, with all the sirens and rockets, even if you would support their choice to independence?

Yes of course, but the same is true if I was a civilian in Texas. Certain things would be stressful for civilians on both sides, but again, I wasn't really commenting on that.

As much as it pains me to say, there is no other solution than Israel (being the stronger country) to take over all Palestinian land and just put it all under Israel as one nation. All Palestinian will be given equal rights as Israelis (its not gonna be easy but its probably has better chance than if Israelis were to be put under a Palestinian state, they probably just going to kill them all).

By doing so Israel will not be seen as a Jewish state that everyone in the middle east hate anymore since some population will be Arabs just like them.

20% of current Israel citizens are Arab.

Arab citizens of Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


One-state solution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Two-state solution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[dreamache]

Here's a good take someone on my FB posted about the whole issue.

Ok I'm going to put my 2 cents this whole Israeli/Palestinian debate. The fact is wherever a nation-state's legal boundaries are drawn is moot. ALL Nation-States are illegitimate be they Palestine, Israel, or anywhere else. The only thing nation-state boundaries demarcate is which mafia can exert a monopolistic control on the services of security and adjudication in a given area. They are illegitimate because, being monopolies, they are maintained with the threat or application of force initiation. You can still have a "nation" as far as living with others who cherish a similar culture, without having to succumb to the iniquities of a social contract.

 

[quintana]

As much as it pains me to say, there is no other solution than Israel (being the stronger country) to take over all Palestinian land and just put it all under Israel as one nation. All Palestinian will be given equal rights as Israelis (its not gonna be easy but its probably has better chance than if Israelis were to be put under a Palestinian state, they probably just going to kill them all).

By doing so Israel will not be seen as a Jewish state that everyone in the middle east hate anymore since some population will be Arabs just like them.

Sounds pretty harsh but its better that perpetual war until one of the group dies off, and its probably be the Palestinian that perish what with all the tanks and nukes the Israelis have not to mention the US support.

If you really think Palestinians would be given equal rights like Israelis, if Israel controlled it all then you are delusional.
Israel is already killing their people, so what makes you think that trend wouldn't continue once they control all the land?

Israel's government want a Jewish only state and won't settle for anything less. Zionism is a racist ideology.

And to say that the Palestinians would kill all the Jews if it was their nation is so backwards. Palestinians are reacting to Israel's aggression.

 

[conjamuk]

Peaceful Palestinians.

 

[jeffrey]

It'd be really cool if our government would just shut the fuck up and let other people deal with their problems. Instead, they just have to stick their noses in everything.

 

[amateursurgeon]

I probably shouldn't be admitting this, but I've given up caring about this conflict.

It's awful that human beings are killing each other, and they don't seem able to sort it out,but you know what? They're going to keep killing each other over the same piece of desert no matter what I think or don't think.

I'm really starting to wish there was some software I could get for my computer that filters entire news stories out so I don't have to see them.

I genuinely hope they come to some sort of peace agreement, but in the meantime, I couldn't give a toss who's right and wrong.

 

[Ar Scion]

"Hostilities" predate Hamas; they are a relatively new organization that wouldn't exist right now if there hadn't been hostilities.




1. Thousands of people get murdered and raped every day and nobody at wickedfire is required to "condemn" those events, so why would anybody here be expected to condemn facebook propaganda?

2 Pointing out facts or criticizing the Israel government does not necessarily make one "anti-Israel." If so, then some "anti-Israel" people would be the Pope and Jews such as Norman Finkelstein.

Jewish girl tries to criticise Dr. Norman Finkelstein - YouTube

Does it make sense to say that it's in Israeli interests to provoke hostilities? Given the environment they are in? How does it make sense that after WW2 this group of Jews are given a patch of land in the middle of the desert surrounded by tinpot Arab dictators and madmen, and their first order of business is to run around killing people?

This narrative sounds like a fairytale.

It's much more sensible to believe the perpetrators are Palestinians. The Palestinians resent the formation of a Jewish state in their midst, and have a penchant for violence. This sounds much more plausible given the evidence of priorities the states have shown. You see Israel thriving economically, spending on military only as needed. Meanwhile the Palestinians are killing their own children and destroying their own economic opportunities in order to wage war.

There's so much evidence to the contrary it's mindboggling. These dirty Jewbags are nice enough to allow Arabs to become Israeli citizens and even let Arab Muslims take political office in their Knesset. After spending all that money on defense, they still have time to research cures for cancer and alzheimers, make breakthroughs in the STEM fields and fuckin' contribute to the world.

As far as rational people are concerned, there's no argument. If each state had their way, Israel would be focusing on economic and social development while the Palestinians would focus on terrorism.

And I'm speaking as someone who wants the Palestinians to thrive.

 

[erect]

I'm really starting to wish there was some software I could get for my computer that filters entire news stories out so I don't have to see them.

I'm sure shaved bieber can be hacked out

 

[Robert M Gouge]

I probably shouldn't be admitting this, but I've given up caring about this conflict.

It's awful that human beings are killing each other, and they don't seem able to sort it out,but you know what? They're going to keep killing each other over the same piece of desert no matter what I think or don't think.

I'm really starting to wish there was some software I could get for my computer that filters entire news stories out so I don't have to see them.

I genuinely hope they come to some sort of peace agreement, but in the meantime, I couldn't give a toss who's right and wrong.

I agree with this.

They've been killing each other for over 2000 years and will continue to do so until the human race becomes extinct. If nothing's changed in 2000 years, I don't see it changing at all. I've become convinced that they don't want peace. They'll always want to kill each other.

Much rather focus on something else.

 

[guerilla]

They've been killing each other for over 2000 years and will continue to do so until the human race becomes extinct.

But this is not true. Jews and Christians live in other middle eastern countries relatively peacefully.

The real issue here, was the creation of Israel, which displaced the Palestinians.

What this allowed was a lot of non-Middle Eastern Jews to move to the area, but displaced the Arabs who had been living there for nearly 2,000 years.

And whenever you have occupation, the people resisting occupation will engage in "terrorism". It's their only way of resisting occupation because they don't have courts, rights, democracy or an army.

Whether it is the mujaheddin or the Irish Republican Army, "terrorism" is the only outlet for people who are denied the right to self rule.

 

[Dresden14]

It'd be really cool if our government would just shut the fuck up and let other people deal with their problems. Instead, they just have to stick their noses in everything.

The big noses of our zionist fuhrers will cause multinational policies to be enforced. It lines their pockets and pushes the jewish agenda of a one world order.

 

[Moxie]

Does it make sense to say that it's in Israeli interests to provoke hostilities? Given the environment they are in? How does it make sense that after WW2 this group of Jews are given a patch of land in the middle of the desert surrounded by tinpot Arab dictators and madmen, and their first order of business is to run around killing people?

This narrative sounds like a fairytale.

The "patch of land" has expanded quite a bit since they were "given" it. How did that happen?

It's much more sensible to believe the perpetrators are Palestinians. The Palestinians resent the formation of a Jewish state in their midst, and have a penchant for violence. This sounds much more plausible given the evidence of priorities the states have shown.

You see Israel thriving economically, spending on military only as needed. Meanwhile the Palestinians are killing their own children and destroying their own economic opportunities in order to wage war.

Israel is an occupying force which by definition is seen as an act of war. Yes, Palestinians are waging war also, but so would Texans if Mexico came over with troops and built houses and roads that only Mexicans could use.

"The Israeli High Court of Justice has ruled that Israel holds the West Bank under "belligerent occupation"."

Israeli-occupied territories - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Israel spends more on their military per capita than the US, plus they get tons of aid from the US.

Israel has massive influence over Palestine's economy.

"Restrictions imposed by the Israeli occupation have had a significant impact on trade and the economy in the Palestinian Territories. A report released by the UN in September 2012 stated that the Palestinian economy "has lost access to 40 percent of the West Bank, 82 percent of its groundwater and more than two-thirds of its grazing land" due to the occupation and settlement construction.[35] A report by Israeli human rights organization B'tselem stated that the West Bank Barrier, which runs through East Jerusalem and the West Bank was responsible for crippling agriculture and businesses while isolating one Palestinian community from another."

Economy of the Palestinian territories - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There's so much evidence to the contrary it's mindboggling. These dirty Jewbags are nice enough to allow Arabs to become Israeli citizens

But not the ones in Palestine, which they don't consider to be a state.

and even let Arab Muslims take political office in their Knesset.

After spending all that money on defense, they still have time to research cures for cancer and alzheimers, make breakthroughs in the STEM fields and fuckin' contribute to the world.

China, Russia, USA and many other countries also allow people to run for office and have great scientists and such. That doesn't count as "evidence" that those governments never do things that are deserving of criticism.

As far as rational people are concerned, there's no argument. If each state had their way, Israel would be focusing on economic and social development while the Palestinians would focus on terrorism.

You're again making it sound like only one side wants more land and such, which is completely counter to factual history. People in positions of power on both sides have basically made it clear that they want the whole or most of the pie.

The majority of Israelis do support the idea of Palestine having their own state, and others want all Palestinians to be made citizens. Palestine negotiators once offered big concessions. The "way" of the Israel government has been to deny all this.

 

[Ar Scion]

The "patch of land" has expanded quite a bit since they were "given" it. How did that happen?

I don't even buy your premise.

First frame of your graphic. Look at it and tell me how much of the pie chart is labelled "Arab-owned". 0%. That's right. It went from the Ottomans to the British to the Jews.

Your graphic doesn't mention that Palestine was never an independent nation, and never had any federal ownership of the land.

If we were going by legal rights, 100% of that land should be owned by Israel. Palestinians have as much of a right to secede as Texas does.

But given all that, the West Bank and Gaza Strip were a huge concession.

Israel's control of the land was legally justified.

The Palestinians might not like it, but being dealt a shit hand doesn't mean you get to flip the card table and suicide bomb the casino.

The fact that you're cool with Palestinian terrorism against innocents ought to be a cause for concern for your own values.

Doing the right thing the right way should never be punished.

 

[Moxie]

I don't even buy your premise.

First frame of your graphic. Look at it and tell me how much of the pie chart is labelled "Arab-owned". 0%. That's right. It went from the Ottomans to the British to the Jews.

Your graphic doesn't mention that Palestine was never an independent nation, and never had any federal ownership of the land.

If we were going by legal rights, 100% of that land should be owned by Israel. Palestinians have as much of a right to secede as Texas does.

But given all that, the West Bank and Gaza Strip were a huge concession.

Israel's control of the land was legally justified.

Look at the comment that dreamache left to get an idea of my own views on the "rights" of "nations" to boss people around.

States can always come up with "laws" supporting whatever they want to do. Germany's laws allowed the holocaust to happen.

Israel is in violation of international law according to The United Nations Security Council, the United Nations General Assembly, the International Committee of the Red Cross, the International Court of Justice and the High Contracting Parties, and "the majority of legal scholars."

International law and Israeli settlements - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


"Most countries of the world do not recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital." (Including the United States)

Positions on Jerusalem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The fact that you're cool with Palestinian terrorism against innocents ought to be a cause for concern for your own values.

Give me a break. :hollering: The Pope, The Red Cross, the Dalai Lama, and plenty of Jews also point out the type of things I have. I suppose you believe they also support terrorism?

I'm well aware that both sides have done bad things. You're the one that seems to be arguing that one particular side has done no wrong and/or that "nations" should be able to have a "legal right" to do whatever they want.

Doing the right thing the right way should never be punished.

I'm not sure what thing or way you are talking about.