Confused Believer

[SUP3RNOVA]

Define how long a day was when the Earth was being created please.

A day. 24 hours.

Once you've done that, spend some time thinking about how you got the right to decide what's compatible with other people's ideas/beliefs.

Why would God write that the Earth was created in a day, and then use the word day (w/e the Hebrew word was) throughout the Bible as a 24 hour period? To confuse us?

Moses lived to be 800-something years old, do you think Moses could have possibly lived for millions of current 'years'? Or did 800 years really mean 80 years, when the time-continuum changed and days were no longer light years long?

This kind of logic always slips down the slope into oblivion, because you can then literally interpret anything however you want.

God could have simply said "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth."

 

[SimonD]

There is no immorality in the bible...

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

See? You cant beat your slave so hard that he dies, just put him in hospital for a few days - praise the lord!

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)

Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, "Strike me!" But the man refused to strike the prophet. Then the prophet told him, "Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me." And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him. (1 Kings 20:35-36 NLT)

"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.'
Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan answered David: "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die." [The child dies seven days later.] (2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB)

 

[SUP3RNOVA]

Children do not always understand the actions of their parents, especially when very young, the child being closer to the parent in understanding and depth at any age differential than any human is ever to God. How then is it that you can know enough to judge God?

Given by your own standard, that things exist human beings simply cannot comprehend, how then is it that you know enough to know God exists? How do you know that other Gods greater than God don't exist?

Try this: Satan is a master of lies, deception, and trickery. Satan puts on a guise pretending to be God, and goes and speaks to a bunch of human beings like Moses. Satan gives Moses the commandments, a bunch of laws, and the message that he is the only God. Satan condones genocides and the murder of women and children, and has it recorded in his book, The Bible. He creates a system of indoctrination where children must be baptized from birth and are raised under Satan's creed. He instills a false love so strong that it actually tricks your soul into believing Satan is really a loving and gracious God.

Then Satan goes over to another guy chilling in the desert named Muhammad. He teaches Muhammad a bunch of different laws, different ways to worship God, and different atrocities to commit. Along with this, he makes sure to tell Muhammad that he is the only God.

This is all after Satan has been hanging out in Asia, spurring up Hinduism, Buddhism, Daoism, and other eastern religions.

In the end, Satan has deceived mankind into devising hundreds of religions that are all incompatible. This conflict results in millions of deaths over human history, and Satan still retains his hold on billions of humans. Brilliant.

Now, can you disprove any of that? Can you acknowledge that if supernatural things are possible that we cannot comprehend, that this instance may be possible and you just can't comprehend it?

 

[Moxie]

The bible doesn't "support" super computers or the Pythagorean Theorem either

Apparently you haven't watched Ancient Aliens. :conehead:

Sigh.... My point is.... even back then.... i'm sure they had words, and methods of explaining lengths of time which exceeded a day.

They could have said 'longer than a day', "much much longer than a day!!" but they didnt.

Hebrew from that time had only a relatively small amount of words in total. What is translated as "day" at the beginning of Genesis is the same word that gets translated as meaning various other time periods, not just in other parts of the Bible, but also again in the book of Genesis.



It’s no wonder Saint Jerome (340?-420), who published the Latin Vulgate version of the Bible, admitted: “When we translate the Hebrew into Latin, we are sometimes guided by conjecture.” Furthermore, Jean Le Clerc (1657-1736), a Swiss Protestant theologian and scholar, even went so far as to maintain that “the learned merely guess at the sense of the Old Testament in an infinity of places.”

Hebrew: An Ancient Forgotten Language With No Written Vowels

 

[SUP3RNOVA]

Hebrew from that time had only a relatively small amount of words in total. What is translated as "day" at the beginning of Genesis is the same word that gets translated as meaning various other time periods, not just in other parts of the Bible, but also again in the book of Genesis.



It’s no wonder Saint Jerome (340?-420), who published the Latin Vulgate version of the Bible, admitted: “When we translate the Hebrew into Latin, we are sometimes guided by conjecture.” Furthermore, Jean Le Clerc (1657-1736), a Swiss Protestant theologian and scholar, even went so far as to maintain that “the learned merely guess at the sense of the Old Testament in an infinity of places.”

Hebrew: An Ancient Forgotten Language With No Written Vowels

The fact that semantics like this matter is what shows the irrationality of the entire situation.

Different denominations of churches are just groups of equally inane people that have a common interest in the way they interpret the Bible (thousands of different ways). Or a common interest in power, or fellowship, or little boys...who knows. Since neither denomination can prove that God exists, they argue based on pointless interpretations of literal folklore, like this.

 

[Andrew Scherer]

Try this: Satan is a master of lies, deception, and trickery. Satan puts on a guise pretending to be God, and goes and speaks to a bunch of human beings like Moses. Satan gives Moses the commandments, a bunch of laws, and the message that he is the only God. Satan condones genocides and the murder of women and children, and has it recorded in his book, The Bible. He creates a system of indoctrination where children must be baptized from birth and are raised under Satan's creed. He instills a false love so strong that it actually tricks your soul into believing Satan is really a loving and gracious God.

Then Satan goes over to another guy chilling in the desert named Muhammad. He teaches Muhammad a bunch of different laws, different ways to worship God, and different atrocities to commit. Along with this, he makes sure to tell Muhammad that he is the only God.

This is all after Satan has been hanging out in Asia, spurring up Hinduism, Buddhism, Daoism, and other eastern religions.

In the end, Satan has deceived mankind into devising hundreds of religions that are all incompatible. This conflict results in millions of deaths over human history, and Satan still retains his hold on billions of humans. Brilliant.

 

[Rage9]

Bunch of retards fighting about nothing. You can't be saved, keep trying.

 

[medway]

There is no immorality in the bible...

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)


See? You cant beat your slave so hard that he dies, just put him in hospital for a few days - praise the lord!

Actually it's saying he can die, just not right away, even better.

 

[learningcurve]

Backward and retarded religious thread is retarded and backward.

So many threads on here about this fucking bullshit!. I am an atheist but I can't prove he/she/it doesn't exist beyond all reasonable doubt with definitive scientific evidence (which of you can -c'mon??)- atheism is just an act of faith much like believing. Fucking stupid argument both ways.

Russell's teapot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Chianti]

> atheism is just an act of faith much like believing.

You'd be correct if atheism was an assertion that there is no god. But that's not what atheism is.
'Atheist' is the label the religious give you when you reject their unevidenced and incredible assertion/proposal.

You're absolutely within your right to reject such an assertion without having to disprove the claim yourself. It's up to the claimant to come up with something more than 'this book is obviously the word of a god' or the classic 'how else could we exist then? Someone must have created us?'.

Lets just be clear about the labels:

---
agnostic atheist:
Rejects all the proposed creation stories. Thinks that even if a god existed, it would probably be impossible to be able to have knowledge of such an entity.

gnostic atheist:
Rejects all the proposed creation stories. Thinks that if a god existed, it would probably be possible to have knowledge of the entity.

agnostic theist:
Thinks that it is probably impossible to have knowledge of a creation entity, and either:

Rejects over 300 creation stories out of hand, but arbitrarily accepts one (usually the one they were indoctrinated with as a child).
OR
Rejects all proposed creation stories, but thinks that there probably is an intelligent but unknowable creation entity of some sort. This subset of theism is called Deism.

gnostic theist:
Rejects over 300 creation stories out of hand, but arbitrarily accepts one (usually the one they were indoctrinated with as a child). Thinks that if a god existed it is probably possible to have knowledge of the entity. Indeed, usually they have a delusion that they do actually know their chosen deity and can communicate with it.
---

So when a religionist posts 'atheists can't KNOW god doesn't exist, so atheism is just a faith', now you can correct them.
If they say 'if you think god is possible, then you're not an atheist - that makes you agnostic', now you can correct them.

 

[turbolapp]

> atheism is just an act of faith much like believing.

You'd be correct if atheism was an assertion that there is no god. But that's not what atheism is.
'Atheist' is the label the religious give you when you reject their unevidenced and incredible assertion/proposal.

You're absolutely within your right to reject such an assertion without having to disprove the claim yourself. It's up to the claimant to come up with something more than 'this book is obviously the word of a god' or the classic 'how else could we exist then? Someone must have created us?'.

Lets just be clear about the labels:

---
agnostic atheist:
Rejects all the proposed creation stories. Thinks that even if a god existed, it would probably be impossible to be able to have knowledge of such an entity.

gnostic atheist:
Rejects all the proposed creation stories. Thinks that if a god existed, it would probably be possible to have knowledge of the entity.

agnostic theist:
Thinks that it is probably impossible to have knowledge of a creation entity, and either:

Rejects over 300 creation stories out of hand, but arbitrarily accepts one (usually the one they were indoctrinated with as a child).
OR
Rejects all proposed creation stories, but thinks that there probably is an intelligent but unknowable creation entity of some sort. This subset of theism is called Deism.

gnostic theist:
Rejects over 300 creation stories out of hand, but arbitrarily accepts one (usually the one they were indoctrinated with as a child). Thinks that if a god existed it is probably possible to have knowledge of the entity. Indeed, usually they have a delusion that they do actually know their chosen deity and can communicate with it.
---

So when a religionist posts 'atheists can't KNOW god doesn't exist, so atheism is just a faith', now you can correct them.
If they say 'if you think god is possible, then you're not an atheist - that makes you agnostic', now you can correct them.

Thanks for this. It gets annoying how everyone around here likes to put you in a tiny little box and then never lets you out again.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, EVERYONE is agnostic. Noone knows. That being said, Just out of sheer probability I'm pretty sure there is no god of the christian mythology just as there probably is no god of the greek mythology. Some really smart people around here, usually pretty good with numbers, are too scared to even venture into this, which I think is pretty sad.

 

[jacky8]

The Christian God committed genocide with all the Noah's Ark bullshit, ooh how very moral.

I replied to your quote "all religious texts are immoral" which is not just untrue but clearly shows ignorance. Or maybe you don't actually mean it and just said out of anger.

When you let your arrogance cloud your judgement, there's nothing that can convince you. I'm sure plenty of people on here will support the fact that all religious texts are not immoral.

Not sure what you mean when you say "christian" god because what I learned is there is one god called by different names, and some people prefer it call it as a universal power rather than "god". I believe directly in one god or universal power, the oneness of all, no discrimination, equality, rebirth.

Well since morals are completely subjective, you're right. I'm pretty sure that if we all started reenacting the morals in the bible, most average people would be horrified, but since your morals are your own, you might be totally cool with it.

I'm not even christian and not an expert at discussions but still feel the need to defend when you tend to blame religions for all the evil in the world.

Clearly, people (including myself) tend to take all the good things around them for granted. I will give you one thing that there are some things you may dislike about your religion but it also gives you a set of moral values which help keep the society good overall. Of course humans could survive without this external set of morals only if they were intelligent enough for that, which they are not. Maybe after world war 3 when only a bunch of humans are left, the aliens will drop on here and mate with the survivors to make a new and more intelligent race :thumbsup:

 

[turbolapp]

I replied to your quote "all religious texts are immoral" which is not just untrue but clearly shows ignorance. Or maybe you don't actually mean it and just said out of anger.

When you let your arrogance cloud your judgement, there's nothing that can convince you. I'm sure plenty of people on here will support the fact that all religious texts are not immoral.

Not sure what you mean when you say "christian" god because what I learned is there is one god called by different names, and some people prefer it call it as a universal power rather than "god". I believe directly in one god or universal power, the oneness of all, no discrimination, equality, rebirth.



I'm not even christian and not an expert at discussions but still feel the need to defend when you tend to blame religions for all the evil in the world.

Clearly, people (including myself) tend to take all the good things around them for granted. I will give you one thing that there are some things you may dislike about your religion but it also gives you a set of moral values which help keep the society good overall. Of course humans could survive without this external set of morals only if they were intelligent enough for that, which they are not. Maybe after world war 3 when only a bunch of humans are left, the aliens will drop on here and mate with the survivors to make a new and more intelligent race :thumbsup:

To keep things simple I won't debate about morals since, again, they're subjective, so they'll all vary. But what perplexes me is why people are under the impression that you have to have religion in order to have morals. Morals are just rules of behavior. Plenty of people never go to church but will participate in society just as well or better than those that do. Because they learned the rules through parents, school, and their community. Infact I would say religion plays a very very small part in morals in most modern communities if at all.

The promise of punishment in an afterlife is hardly enough to force people to do good today. (We are creatures of instant gratification, after all) You know what does ensure people do good? Acceptance and love of your family ,friends and future mates. We are very social creatures, and implied threats of isolation or abandonment is far more effective than any mythical fairy would ever be. When that fails society has it's own forms of punishment as well.

 

[SimonD]

What's funny about religious people that use the argument is that it leads to the obvious conclusion that without a big book of rules that was handed to them they would be incapable of making their own judgements about right and wrong behaviour in every day life.

 

[nanexo]

This is somewhat blasphemous. You will know it yourself if God is true or not, or whether the bible verses were true or not, so don't be confused. Why not try to pray?


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Krislyn Here
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