Does Liberalism Make You Fuckin Stupid?

Er.... wasn't Jefferson himself a liberal?

He certainly seemed to agree with many aspects of liberalism... did that make him fucking stupid?

Jefferson was a classical liberal..what is today known as a Libertarian. Don't confuse it for modern liberalism, which is socialistic. He never wanted government programs of any sort. Personal freedom, and laissez-faire economics.

"That government is best which governs least"
 


Jefferson was a classical liberal..what is today known as a Libertarian. Don't confuse it for modern liberalism, which is socialistic. He never wanted government programs of any sort. Personal freedom, and laissez-faire economics.

"That government is best which governs least"

Sorry not got time to get into a big debate on this but classical liberalism is not identical to libertarianism and despite the best efforts of the media in the US, for most of the world liberalism does not equal socialism. While liberalism can be socialistic is encompasses a wide range of viewpoints and....

....gotta cut this short. I really don't have time to write as much as I'd like to, sorry.
 
God exists because random does not exist. Our existence, the trees, animals, planets, could not have randomly appeared there... There was an original intention behind creation, an energy, a bearded man, a mathematical equation or whatever, it doesnt' matter... that is your god

Same thing as when you throw a dice, the result is not random, it involves tons of equations including at which speed you threw it, where you threw it, how you threw it etc etc etc.... It's simply too complicated to explain and involves millions of equations... so we decided to call it random to simplify our lives. In this example you are the intention behind it.
 
Men of his time couldn't express their true feelings on some issues due to the sheer resistance from others, but he was on the path to the real truth.

The truth is plain to see if you want to see it objectively. Religion is a complex expression of the fear of death. We elevate ourselves and tell each other that there is a purpose to life, and there is an afterlife because we fear nothingness.

Believing anything more is the arrogance of man.

Have you ever studied any form of philosophy/theology? Have you ever thought deeper than "god is not true because these days we understand the world. God was just a way of explaining the world back when we didn't understand it."

Atheism is a faith, you don't seem to understand that.
 
Have you ever studied any form of philosophy/theology? Have you ever thought deeper than "god is not true because these days we understand the world. God was just a way of explaining the world back when we didn't understand it."

Atheism is a faith, you don't seem to understand that.

"
Myth:
You cannot prove that God doesn’t exist; therefore, atheism is based on faith.

Response:
Often theists will try to place atheism and theism on the same plane by arguing that while theists cannot prove that god exists, atheists also cannot prove that god does not exist. This is used as a basis for arguing that there is no objective means for determining which is preferable because neither has a logical or empirical advantage over the other. Thus, the only reason for going with one or the other is faith and then, presumably, the theist will argue that their faith is somehow better than the atheist’s faith.
This claim relies upon the erroneous assumption that all propositions are created equal and, because some cannot be conclusively proven, then therefore none can be conclusively disproven. So, it is argued, the proposition “God exists” cannot be disproven.
But not all propositions are created equal. It is true that some cannot be disproven — for example, the claim “a black swan exists” cannot be disproven. To do so would require examining every spot in the universe to make sure that such a swan did not exist, and that simply isn’t possible.
Other propositions, however, can be disproven — and conclusively. There are two ways to do this. The first is to see if the proposition leads to a logical contradiction; if so, then the proposition must be false. Examples of this would be “a married bachelor exists” or “a square circle exists.” Both of these propositions entail logical contradictions — pointing this out is the same as disproving them.
If someone claims the existence of a god, the existence of which entails logical contradictions, then that god can be disproven the same way. Many atheological arguments do exactly that — for example they argue that an omnipotent and omniscient god cannot exist because those qualities lead to logical contradictions.
The second way to disprove a proposition is a bit more complicated. Consider the following two propositions:

  • 1. Our solar system has a tenth planet.
    2. Our solar system has a tenth planet with a mass of X and an orbit of Y.
Both propositions can be proven, but there is a difference when it comes to disproving them. The first could be disproven if someone were to examine all of the space between the sun and the outer limits of our solar system and found no new planets — but such a process is beyond our technology. So, for all practical purposes, it is not disprovable.
The second proposition, however, is disprovable with current technology. Knowing the specific information of mass and orbit, we can devise tests to determine if such an object exists — in other words, the claim is testable. If the tests repeatedly fail, then we can reasonably conclude that the object does not exist. For all intents and purposes, the proposition it disproven. This would not mean that no tenth planet exists. Instead, it means that this particular tenth planet, with this mass and this orbit, does not exist.
Similarly, when a god is defined adequately, it may be possible to construct empirical or logical tests to see if it exists. We can look, for example, at the expected effects which such a god might have on nature or humanity. If we fail to find those effects, then a god with that set of characteristics does not exist. Some other god with some other set of characteristics may exist, but this one has been disproven.
One example of this would be the Argument from Evil, an atheological argument which proposes to prove that an omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent god cannot exist alongside a world like ours which has so much evil in it. If successful, such an argument would not disprove the existence of some other god; it would instead merely disprove the existence of any gods with a particular set of characteristics.
Obviously disproving a god requires an adequate description of what it is and what characteristics it has in order to determine either if there is a logical contradiction or if any testable implications hold true. Without a substantive explanation of just what this god is, how can there be a substantive claim that this god is? In order to reasonably claim that this god matters, the believer must have substantive information regarding its nature and characteristics; otherwise, there is no reason for anyone to care.
Claiming that atheists “cannot prove that God does not exist” often relies upon the misunderstanding that atheists claim “God does not exist” and should prove this. In reality, atheists merely fail to accept the theists' claim “God exists” and, hence, the initial burden of proof lies with the believer. If the believer is unable to provide good reason to accept the existence of their god, it is unreasonable to expect the atheist to construct a disproof of it — or even care much about the claim in the first place."
 
I'm not going to take a shot at the religion angle here, but to answer the question Does Liberalism Make You Fuckin Stupid?

The answer is no, Liberalism does not make you fucking stupid. Remaining a liberal after you have been presented with logic and reason makes you fucking stupid!
 
Ungh. TJ was a deist, God doesn't exist, the country was not founded as a Christian nation and popeye is a cunt.

"Those who embrace the diety of Christ rather than the morals of Christ are not religious...they are pseudo-religious and dangerous to our national interests."
- Thomas Jefferson

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology.
-Thomas Jefferson

“If the freedom of religion, guaranteed to us by law in theory, can ever rise in practice under the overbearing inquisition of public opinion, then and only then will truth, prevail over fanaticism”
~Thomas Jefferson~

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state.
(signed) Thomas Jefferson
Jan.1.1802.

Thomas Jefferson Quotes regarding Christianity
Quote

Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.
-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom

The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814

Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, April 13, 1820

It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it [the Apocalypse], and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to General Alexander Smyth, Jan. 17, 1825
 
"
Myth:
You cannot prove that God doesn’t exist; therefore, atheism is based on faith.

Response:
Often theists will try to place atheism and theism on the same plane by arguing that while theists cannot prove that god exists, atheists also cannot prove that god does not exist. This is used as a basis for arguing that there is no objective means for determining which is preferable because neither has a logical or empirical advantage over the other. Thus, the only reason for going with one or the other is faith and then, presumably, the theist will argue that their faith is somehow better than the atheist’s faith.
This claim relies upon the erroneous assumption that all propositions are created equal and, because some cannot be conclusively proven, then therefore none can be conclusively disproven. So, it is argued, the proposition “God exists” cannot be disproven.
But not all propositions are created equal. It is true that some cannot be disproven — for example, the claim “a black swan exists” cannot be disproven. To do so would require examining every spot in the universe to make sure that such a swan did not exist, and that simply isn’t possible.
Other propositions, however, can be disproven — and conclusively. There are two ways to do this. The first is to see if the proposition leads to a logical contradiction; if so, then the proposition must be false. Examples of this would be “a married bachelor exists” or “a square circle exists.” Both of these propositions entail logical contradictions — pointing this out is the same as disproving them.
If someone claims the existence of a god, the existence of which entails logical contradictions, then that god can be disproven the same way. Many atheological arguments do exactly that — for example they argue that an omnipotent and omniscient god cannot exist because those qualities lead to logical contradictions.
The second way to disprove a proposition is a bit more complicated. Consider the following two propositions:

  • 1. Our solar system has a tenth planet.
    2. Our solar system has a tenth planet with a mass of X and an orbit of Y.
Both propositions can be proven, but there is a difference when it comes to disproving them. The first could be disproven if someone were to examine all of the space between the sun and the outer limits of our solar system and found no new planets — but such a process is beyond our technology. So, for all practical purposes, it is not disprovable.
The second proposition, however, is disprovable with current technology. Knowing the specific information of mass and orbit, we can devise tests to determine if such an object exists — in other words, the claim is testable. If the tests repeatedly fail, then we can reasonably conclude that the object does not exist. For all intents and purposes, the proposition it disproven. This would not mean that no tenth planet exists. Instead, it means that this particular tenth planet, with this mass and this orbit, does not exist.
Similarly, when a god is defined adequately, it may be possible to construct empirical or logical tests to see if it exists. We can look, for example, at the expected effects which such a god might have on nature or humanity. If we fail to find those effects, then a god with that set of characteristics does not exist. Some other god with some other set of characteristics may exist, but this one has been disproven.
One example of this would be the Argument from Evil, an atheological argument which proposes to prove that an omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent god cannot exist alongside a world like ours which has so much evil in it. If successful, such an argument would not disprove the existence of some other god; it would instead merely disprove the existence of any gods with a particular set of characteristics.
Obviously disproving a god requires an adequate description of what it is and what characteristics it has in order to determine either if there is a logical contradiction or if any testable implications hold true. Without a substantive explanation of just what this god is, how can there be a substantive claim that this god is? In order to reasonably claim that this god matters, the believer must have substantive information regarding its nature and characteristics; otherwise, there is no reason for anyone to care.
Claiming that atheists “cannot prove that God does not exist” often relies upon the misunderstanding that atheists claim “God does not exist” and should prove this. In reality, atheists merely fail to accept the theists' claim “God exists” and, hence, the initial burden of proof lies with the believer. If the believer is unable to provide good reason to accept the existence of their god, it is unreasonable to expect the atheist to construct a disproof of it — or even care much about the claim in the first place."

I completely disagree with this. I think a lot of people get too caught up with the definition of words.

If you think there is something more than matter and light, that's a belief.

If you think there isn't anything more than matter and light, that's a belief.

If you think there might be, but there might not be, you have no belief.
 
In answer to the main question of the thread

Its funny because in Europe people would probably be asking the opposite question.

It would seem that liberalism doesn't make you stupid, but going against popular belief does.
 
Their belief in God might be a coping mechanism, especially considering those doctors who deal with death on a daily basis. It may become far more difficult to see people die right in front of you when you don't believe in God, whereas if you subscribe to God & heaven, then you may be comforted by the thought that this person has moved on. On the other hand, if you don't believe in God, then the person has simply died. There is no comfort.

Let me guess you just pulled that out of your ass just for arguments sake. Typical know it all atheist attitude. Those doctors might be seeing just a little more of life then the geeks sitting all day in a laboratory. Another thing; I believe in a designer of life; the pattern of life only comes from other life is valid prof for me.
 
Belief in God is very ambiguous, and I'd wager most of those doctors are hardly fundamentalists/orthodox, etc. A medical doctorate is a purely applied degree, there is no basic research involved. Get to the doctorates that challenge actual physical principles (Ph.Ds in chemistry, biology, physics, biochemistry, math, etc) and then see what the percentage is. I'm not an atheist, but I'm certainly no religious fundamentalist either.

Actually the larger majority are. Its in the article.

Also allow me to be a dick for a second here and say there are a lot harder professions to get into academically

Really? wow I had know idea.
 
"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus." [Letter to Benjamin Rush April 21, 1803]

A "real Christian"........ Please argue away thsi quote before you go any further with this argument. If you can't explain why T.J. proclaimed himself a Christian, than you are out of this argument.

If you believed in Jesus so much you would be spending more time trying to get along with your fellow (liberal) Americans and less time running your I-hate-Obama-and-Liberal crusade.

Newsflash: America's enemies would just as soon harm a liberal as they would a conservative, a democrat as much as a republican...

The people risking their lives in Iraq, Afghanistan - you name it all conservative and liberal and are spilling the same blood...perhaps you need to spend more time reading Jefferson and the Bible
 
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55h1FO8V_3w]YouTube - Patton Oswalt - Sky Cake[/ame]
 
If you believed in Jesus so much you would be spending more time trying to get along with your fellow (liberal) Americans and less time running your I-hate-Obama-and-Liberal crusade.

Newsflash: America's enemies would just as soon harm a liberal as they would a conservative, a democrat as much as a republican...

The people risking their lives in Iraq, Afghanistan - you name it all conservative and liberal and are spilling the same blood...perhaps you need to spend more time reading Jefferson and the Bible

Someone who truly followed Jesus's teachings would be trying to understand and get on with the Iraqis and Afghanis and care enough about their fellow human beings not to label certain groups as "enemies".

9/11...? Jesus would have turned the other cheek.
 
9/11...? Jesus would have turned the other cheek.

This is strictly an inflammatory statement with absolutely no backing.

Self-defense?

Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."

Again, by no means am I devoutly religious, but you really need to back up any statements, especially if you're accusing Popeye/Hellblazer of doing the exact same thing.
 
This is strictly an inflammatory statement with absolutely no backing.

Self-defense?

Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."

Again, by no means am I devoutly religious, but you really need to back up any statements, especially if you're accusing Popeye/Hellblazer of doing the exact same thing.

The "turn the other cheek" bit is clearly a reference to the bible, and its obvious which bit, so how does his statement have no backing?
 
The "turn the other cheek" bit is clearly a reference to the bible, and its obvious which bit, so how does his statement have no backing?

Because the context of "turning the other cheek" was not mentioned, because the actual story doesn't mean for you to not protect yourself or family.
 
Because the context of "turning the other cheek" was not mentioned, because the actual story doesn't mean for you to not protect yourself or family.

I'm not religious either but I thought forgiveness and non-violence where core parts of Jesus's teachings.

Matthew 5:38-42 said:
You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Yes, I was being provocative but other than scale of magnitude there is no difference between a strike on a person's cheek and one on a building or country.

Also

Some point out that Jesus said "he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one" from Luke 22:36 and the Old Testament laws regarding killing in self-defense to support this view. However, even Luke 22:36 could have been figurative as in Luke 22:38 the disciples point out that they have two swords among the twelve of them, to which Jesus replies "That is enough."
Turning the other cheek - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (Yeah, I'm being lazy & assuming whoever edited that knows more about theology than I do.)

Even if Jesus did advocate self-defence and consider a country to be on par with the self, which I doubt. I don't think he would have subscribed to the "offence is the best defence" school of thought.
 
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