greatest police badge number ever

I saw HB's quote of UG.

Any admin with db access can confirm I've had you on ignore for at least a week. Whenever I last posted to you in the thread where you lied about your Marc Stevens research.

You're either lying or stupid. You don't sound stupid when you post, so there's something else going on. I even extended the James Randi special to ANYBODY on this forum that wanted to take me up on it. I also linked to the only actual case he has in the public record and I linked to the appeal - both of which he got slaughtered in. Rather than discuss it logically like of kingofsp you threw your patented little forum tantrum, covered your ears and went about your merry way. Just like you do anytime you get called on your bullshit.

By the way, a month later and nobody has taken me up on my offer.
 


You're either lying or stupid. You don't sound stupid when you post, so there's something else going on. I even extended the James Randi special to ANYBODY on this forum that wanted to take me up on it. I also linked to the only actual case he has in the public record and I linked to the appeal - both of which he got slaughtered in. Rather than discuss it logically like of kingofsp you threw your patented little forum tantrum, covered your ears and went about your merry way. Just like you do anytime you get called on your bullshit.

By the way, a month later and nobody has taken me up on my offer.


quoting for those that may or may not have UG on ignore
 
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quoting for those that may or may not have UG on ignore
Thanks. I suspect UG may find less and less people will be reading his posts and taking him up on his offers.

He's welcome to his views and he's welcome to his posts. No one however, owes him anything, and I suspect very few people have time for his intellectual dishonesty.
 
I agree with guerilla that the power of the police is arbitrary and unfounded, but that doesn't change the fact they wield considerable leverage over average citizens. They tell you get out of your car, provide ID and what do you do? Drive away? Run away? let's assume you drive away or talk back to the cop. You just made the cop angrier and situation worse. The place to challenge the authority of police is in the courts presumably after consulting legal consul, not on the street.
 
The place to challenge the authority of police is in the courts presumably after consulting legal consul, not on the street.

Wrong!
The more you voluntarily cooperate with the them more stuff you give them to use against you in court. If you voluntarily give up your rights at the time of your stop then you also give them up in court as well when your court date comes. Can't have it both ways.

"Anything you say can and WILL BE used AGAINST YOU"
 
First, kudos on spending the time to reply to so many attacks from so many different directions with people at so many different levels of understanding.
Thanks. Once you filter out the real time-wasters, it becomes a lot easier.

I gave the link a read through and noted the key definitions. Lets clarify and see if I'm on the right track first before I argue further.

You asked "How are these laws applicable to me".

From reading the link you gave, I would define the laws applicable to you under "might-makes-right". This is a property right you do not want to acknowledge.
First, I don't believe in rights. Not as something God gave me (don't believe in God) or something that "comes from nature" which sounds like a lazy hack. I certainly don't believe rights come from 4 pieces of paper which are 200 years old and nobody signed.

What Kinsella is on about in that article is the efficacy and rationality of assigning property rights to things. The reason being, means are scarce. If no one owns anything, we will run into conflicts when you and I both try to eat the last donut. So it's important to figure out whose donut it is, and then that guy can eat it, he can trade/gift it to the other, or they can split it. But the second approach prevents us from getting in a fistfight and the donut falling on the dirty floor.

We'll presume then, that avoiding conflict, which can range from bad feelings to murder, is a "good".


Might makes right isn't a property right because it creates conflict. The purpose of property rights is to lower the cost of conflict.

I linked you to Kinsella's article to help you get an idea of what we mean by property rights and why they may be important to how we relate to one another.

As to why the law is not applicable to me, I haven't seen any proof it is. Sure, someone can wave a gun in my face, but then we've lowered the standard of law to that of rape or assault. This is fine with me, because it's probably realistic.

It is problematic though for people who practice and "maintain" law to present the perception of fairness and justice.

If we can get everyone to agree that the law is not just, that it is not moral, and that it basically works off consent solicited with threats of violence, then we're on the same page.

There are exceptions, like contract law. Contract law works by consent. It's also completely based in the idea of property rights. Some asshole with a badge shooting your dog because he thinks you have a joint has nothing to do with property rights, morals or authority. It's hooliganism.

The simple test is, if you took the uniform off the guy, and he was still doing what he does in uniform, would it be ok?

(although I would say the external rights seems a bit murky to me. As we trace back rights to find "first prior users" we would just be going through lists of people who originally got ownership of the land through "might-makes-right" and never have any "first prior users" to claim the rights).
This is actually an area I have written a lot about and had a lot of interest in. How do you reset the system equitably?

There is quite a bit of thinking that has already been done on this. It's not possible to restore perfect property rights, so we have to aim for something which stops harm, and rewards the currently alive injured.

Trying to undo the negative effects perpetrated over time isn't doable imo.

Off topic: Cool mises quote from this article.
Mises was very, very cool. And he will always have street cred (will never blow up and be popular) because there is a minimal intellectual level of curiosity and reason you need to have to understand him, and most people simply don't have it.
 
Wrong!
The more you voluntarily cooperate with the them more stuff you give them to use against you in court. If you voluntarily give up your rights at the time of your stop then you also give them up in court as well when your court date comes. Can't have it both ways.

"Anything you say can and WILL BE used AGAINST YOU"

that's assuming you are arrested. but whenever possible, say as little as possible and. For Terry stops, for example, you will be asked to identify yourself, but you need not provide any more information. Failure to identity yourself can result in being booked
 
Getting rid of the current world oligarch is a battle that must first be won spiritually and rationally IMO. Until the people change, the way we operate in society will never change.

I think so too.

These oil companies became big because of the state. They became big in a non-free market environment through the state. So it's tough to use them as an example because in a free market scenario they probably would have never attained the reach and power they currently hold. This collusion, and so many others as well, is a direct result of the state.

I think some of that is speculation but I agree with what you're saying. But to that point I look at it more as cartels using government as a tool to further their own interests rather than government favoring the cartel's interests without influence from the cartel. I don't think it's a trivial distinction, at least in this context. In any case I think the tendency toward collusion is way deeper than the tendency toward government.

The state is one of the biggest deterrents for oil exploration. I can't just go find land and start drilling there. I have to comply with the state first. Since nobody really owns their land I have to comply with countries and governments. The state is the greatest barrier of entry in the oil industry.

As I alluded to above, I wonder what kind of argument could be made for oil companies influencing policy over time to create these barriers through legislation. It would certainly be what I would do if I wanted to protect my territory and had the means to do so, buy off the people who make the rules and make it hard for my would-be competition to play by them. I'm not well versed in the oil lobby's history.

Anything is possible. If I sat down and really got creative and came up with a real plan it could be done.

word.

Most of these companies remove their competitors via the government or covert wings of the government (CIA, FBI, etc) which would all be much harder to pull off without taxpayer funded government agencies under their control.

I'm not so sure about that. Might be much easier. Money and violence are both remarkable problem solvers, government or not.

How would government, which is the largest monopoly and full of collusion, be any better at solving monopolies and collusion than a free market? What would you recommend for solving collusion and monopolies? I'm not saying this to you directly. I just have yet to see a more rational, loving and free society than that along the lines of Ancap or some similar state-less form.

That sure is the question. I think the answer is at least in part to be found in your suggestion that humanity needs to grow up a bit.

Again, great post. You made me have to think which I always enjoy :)
Right back at you man, thanks for your thoughtful reply :thumbsup:
 
"If you would not confront your neighbor and demand his money at the point of a gun to solve every new problem that may appear in your life, you should not allow the government to do it for you." ~ William E. Simon

That's the argument everyone wants to avoid. We can prophecize about how a stateless society might be (or evolve to be) all day long, but the truth is no one really knows how it would pan out, nor does it matter. Initiating violence against others is immoral, no matter how you think they should live their life, but that's exactly what the "government" does. The police are their foot soldiers. I guess Obama is Shredder. Maybe Krang, not sure.

If you can't make a moral case for initiating violence against people for doing things that you or other people might not approve of, what's the point of getting into a hypothetical debate?
 
Thanks. Once you filter out the real time-wasters, it becomes a lot easier.


First, I don't believe in rights. Not as something God gave me (don't believe in God) or something that "comes from nature" which sounds like a lazy hack. I certainly don't believe rights come from 4 pieces of paper which are 200 years old and nobody signed.

What Kinsella is on about in that article is the efficacy and rationality of assigning property rights to things. The reason being, means are scarce. If no one owns anything, we will run into conflicts when you and I both try to eat the last donut. So it's important to figure out whose donut it is, and then that guy can eat it, he can trade/gift it to the other, or they can split it. But the second approach prevents us from getting in a fistfight and the donut falling on the dirty floor.

We'll presume then, that avoiding conflict, which can range from bad feelings to murder, is a "good".

Right, you don't believe rights are inherent, but you would like to see people practicing observing rights and working within certain defined rights in a system.

Might makes right isn't a property right because it creates conflict. The purpose of property rights is to lower the cost of conflict.
Well it's still a property right though. It's just one a libertarian system wants to not allow. Right?

I linked you to Kinsella's article to help you get an idea of what we mean by property rights and why they may be important to how we relate to one another.
Right, I get it.

As to why the law is not applicable to me, I haven't seen any proof it is. Sure, someone can wave a gun in my face, but then we've lowered the standard of law to that of rape or assault. This is fine with me, because it's probably realistic.
It seems you are using a poor choice of words for your question of "how is the law applicable to me?". The notes I wrote in my diary about you are applicable to you because they are about you. The laws are applicable to you because you are a US citizen or a resident of xyz or however else that particular law is relevant to you. Should they be applied, how should they be enforced etc. are different questions, but of course they are "applicable".

Also, "it's probably realistic", this is pretty much what everyone tries to argue with you.

It is problematic though for people who practice and "maintain" law to present the perception of fairness and justice.

If we can get everyone to agree that the law is not just, that it is not moral, and that it basically works off consent solicited with threats of violence, then we're on the same page.

There are exceptions, like contract law. Contract law works by consent. It's also completely based in the idea of property rights. Some asshole with a badge shooting your dog because he thinks you have a joint has nothing to do with property rights, morals or authority. It's hooliganism.

The simple test is, if you took the uniform off the guy, and he was still doing what he does in uniform, would it be ok?
I don't even follow you here.

Originally this land was claimed through "might-makes-right", agreed. With those newfound property rights a governing body and set of laws were setup by the people who claimed this land through force.

No one disputes this. No one has a hard time understanding this. I'm pretty sure everyone is well aware this land was taken by force.

People refer to laws as "just" because they are to be enforced as they are laid out. If you are found to have broken a law, you will pay the consequence. Whether or not a person agrees with a law, they can still agree it is "just" for a person to pay the consequence of being found guilty for it. One definition of the word "Just" is "legally correct". You can't get people to stop calling laws "just", it's a part of the definition of the word..

It's not problematic for someone to refer to a law as "just" while knowing the power used to enforce those laws were gained through force. It's two different issues.

Do you want people to agree that punishing people found guilty of murder isn't just?

I can kidnap you and then take really good care of you. Would you say the care I gave you was "unjust" because I had kidnapped you?

It's possible to have "just" laws within an unjust system.
 
We can prophecize about how a stateless society might be (or evolve to be) all day long, but the truth is no one really knows how it would pan out, nor does it matter.

Except we do know, because every society in human history has started out stateless, and every single one has eventually formed a government. It starts off with a need for common protection, and crowd funding for large projects and then grows from there.

I don't think anybody is arguing about the morality of using force to take taxes for these things (and more), I think the argument is about the reality of the inevitability of it.

Since stateless societies are the precursor to governments, many people see it as a step backwards, not a step forward.
 
Well it's still a property right though. It's just one a libertarian system wants to not allow. Right?
It is the antithesis of a property right.

The notes I wrote in my diary about you are applicable to you because they are about you.
So if you wrote in your diary, "Guerilla owes me $50" or "Guerilla has to do what I say" that makes those statements true?

The laws are applicable to you because you are a US citizen or a resident of xyz or however else that particular law is relevant to you
This is called circular logic. The law is applicable to me because the law is applicable to me.

Should they be applied, how should they be enforced etc. are different questions, but of course they are "applicable".
You've just done what everyone in the herd is doing. You're asserting something as a truth without any facts to substantiate it.

If I wanted to prove you owed me $50, I would have to do more than say, "he owes me" to prove it. I'd need a contract, a recording of a verbal agreement, a bill of sale, an IOU. Something. Some piece of tangible evidence that such a debt exists. Right? I mean otherwise, I could just say everyone in the country owes me $50, use the courts to collect and become rich.

So where is the proof (for the 100 millionth time) that the laws some asshole in Ottawa or Washington writes, are applicable to me? How did another human being gain dominion over my life, liberty and property? How "rational" is it to claim that they control my life to protect someone (Saddam Hussein, Barack Obama, Kim Kardashian) from controlling my life?

These ^^^ are the questions that need to be answered.

Also, "it's probably realistic", this is pretty much what everyone tries to argue with you.
Look, as an aside, I am me. I am not you guys. Some people like me, some people hate me. Some people agree with me sometimes, and disagree with me other times.

This entire discussion (which is probably a net "good" in my opinion) wouldn't be possible without someone like me, and someone like you. I don't want to live in a world, or be around people who don't disagree and question things. Implicit in that however is that people aren't scumbag liars or completely immune to rational, logical discourse.

Otherwise, you get something akin to the bleating of animals such as when Hellblazer posts.

People refer to laws as "just" because they are to be enforced as they are laid out.
I am pretty sure "just" is meant to be an abbreviated form of "justice". As in equitable.

Whether or not a person agrees with a law, they can still agree it is "just" for a person to pay the consequence of being found guilty for it. One definition of the word "Just" is "legally correct". You can't get people to stop calling laws "just", it's a part of the definition of the word..
I hate the definition game. Justice and law are not the same thing. So please pick one definition of the word that we can both agree on. Because it's dangerous to conflate law with justice.

Hitler put Jews into ovens and roasted them alive, because it was legal to do so in Germany. I am not sure those Jews would agree that such a law represented justice.

Of course there are thousands of other examples, but that is one that should be easy to grasp.

It's not problematic for someone to refer to a law as "just" while knowing the power used to enforce those laws were gained through force. It's two different issues.
It's probably cognitive dissonance.

I can kidnap you and then take really good care of you. Would you say the care I gave you was "unjust" because I had kidnapped you?
Uhm, yes?

It's possible to have "just" laws within an unjust system.
It's possible for me to love you by beating and raping you.

We wandered way off topic here.

So getting back to the meat of the discussion, do you have any PROOF the law is applicable to me?




I had to not respond to most of your post because it would have made my response uber long and frankly, I don't care about most of what you posted, except I disagree with most of it. At the end of the day, the best way to drive my point home, is to continue to ask the question no one will answer.
 
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you get something akin to the bleating of animals such as when Hellblazer posts...

Bro, you basically got destroyed in this thread and couldn't answer me or others such as UG anymore. Then you and a couple of your dingleberries tried to do massive damage control, with the usual spattering of your effeminate passive-aggressive slurs thrown in.

Now you're like the last one left in the room trying to retain your dignity by rewriting history. I think everyone's got the basics of your schtick down pat by now. When you get annihilated, just stop responding on the reason that they're a "timewaster" who just "doesn't get it". The usual predictable high-handed card that allows you to keep your neurotic paradigm intact.

Then, after I've assumed you've taken your punishment, I'll see you still whining like a little bitch in random threads with my name coming out of your mouth every 5 seconds. Give it a break, dude.
 
guys there is no need for 4 pages of debate regarding the authority of police & government, the officer's badge number is #1.....

/authority
 
Excuse my here, but guerilla you seem far too intelligent to actually believe that a stateless society could scale to a few hundred million people without needing a strong police and military to protect the populace from the predatory nature that truly exists among some of the other humans - some of whom actually posses armies and are not afraid to use them. If so, wouldn't that in effect render it into a government in and of itself?
 
Excuse my here, but guerilla you seem far too intelligent
I love you.

actually believe that a stateless society could scale to a few hundred million people without needing a strong police and military to protect the populace from the predatory nature that truly exists among some of the other humans - some of whom actually posses armies and are not afraid to use them.
If you mean, people will need defense, you're probably right. But there is no reason they need to have a monopoly defense provider.

Anyone who has read Machinery of Freedom or any other well known libertarian text on this (The Tannehills for example) understands that security, like medicine and education, can be provided by the market.

If so, wouldn't that in effect render it into a government in and of itself?
If it is a monopoly and you teach your children to worship it, then yeah.