Iran terrorist plot on US soil foiled

[ARVolund]

There used to be a time when the US was regarded in other countries as an inspiration, a successful, developed and free society. Many people still hold this false perception which is furthered by western media. It simply isn't true anymore. That's why the US & western media gets called out. The politically correct doublespeak can't change:

• The fact that the US is militarily aggressive.
• Is no longer a free society and is fast becoming one of the most nightmarish Orwellian countries in existence. This is the catalyst of your downfall really. When your DNA & prints are on file, and you can be spied upon without a court order and with shit like "gait analysis" & exit controls being deployed in airports, you are all pretty much fucked. The state has superseded the individual.
• No longer a developed nation (increasingly reminiscent of the USSR. Massive & hi-tech military hardware # developed country). The population's intellect and education has steeply declined. Many companies are bankrupt. Slower internet connectivity than many third world countries. It seems a higher premium is placed on law enforcement and military spending than economic growth itself.
• Narcissistic & xenophobic worldview with contempt for other cultures.

My 2c as a neutral outside observer.

Well I am not a neutral outside observer and unfortunately we are so very far down the road to fascism that anybody with any sense should be extremely afraid.

It is obviously not a party thing, Obama got elected as the anit-Bush and for the most part he is Bush 2 with no changes in the things that really matter. Campaign anit-war, get elected start more and double down on the ones already going, say your going to change economic policy get elected do more of the same etc etc.... Different rhetoric but same results. They say whatever they need to do to get elected and then just suck more out the country for themselves and their buddies.

We are seriously screwed..............

 

[geomark]

The downfall happened a long time ago. Many of us didn't know we grew up in a truly evil empire due to the history taught in government schools. I'm reading a book called "Pearl Harbor - The Story of the Secret War" published back in 1947, available here Pearl Harbor: The Story of the Secret War - George Morgenstern - Mises Institute

It's long and often dry so here's a super short summary:
FDR engaged in the same kind of secret wars and misleading of the public that our recent presidents have been doing. He knew that Pearl Harbor would almost certainly be attacked because they U.S. had broken the Japanese crypto and seen many of the planning communications. He even baited the Japanese with a series of moves he knew would provoke them and left Pearl Harbor poorly defended.

Sound similar at all to any recent events?

I've been slowly getting informed on the history of our fine nation and it's ugly at every step. Previously waded through a terribly long and dry book called "A Very Fine Line" all about Reagan's arms for hostages dealings. Yet to dig into the very ugly Philippine invasion.

The dirty secrets come out given enough time and they are available to the public which for the most part have no interest. I fear, however, that with the rate of rise of the police state that all these online resources will vanish soon.

 

[Ar Scion]

Note the wording of the headline (Islamist and not US citizen) in yet another fine example of propaganda churned out by the British Bullshit Corporation:
BBC News - Islamist cleric Anwar al-Awlaki killed in Yemen

CTRL+F the word "citizen" to also be amused as to how none of the three occurrences of the word in the article acknowledge the citizenship of the man who was assassinated.

What?

You're saying he is made famous by his US citizenship rather than his ideology?

"They called Tiger Woods a golfer when he was clearly a US Citizen!"

 

[bogdan147]

^spot on

 

[Ar Scion]

The point is the significance of his assassination, that he was the first US citizen to ever be ordered killed by a US President without a trial or even being charged with a crime - that is extremely significant but the media has glossed over that very important detail.

The headline, and many headlines and stories about it intentionally downplay his citizenship (since that makes his assassination unconstitutional) and rather focus on his religion. It's intentionally misleading, and I think that's the point. Americans should be marching in the streets about it, and instead most Americans of all political leanings have been tricked by the media into being ok with it because "they said he was a bad guy". Using words like "Islamist" or "terrorist" guarantee he will be prejudged and therefore his death will be made less significant.

I can see where this argument comes from, but I can't deny the other side either.

This nigga knows the US was after him. He didn't voluntarily surrender. He didn't decide to go to trial and let the court exonerate him.

He made no attempt to resolve the situation. In effect, he is partially responsible for his own death, and I'm sure he knew it. It wasn't like he was up in arms over his own countrymen coming after him.

Shit, people die like this all the time in shootouts with cops. No charges brought, no trial.

What, this nigga deserves preferential treatment because he happened to be born inside our borders? What if we went in and lost 30 men while attempting to capture him to put him on trial? Would that be fair?

I understand the hysteria: "What if Obama does this to me!"

But if Obama comes after you, you sure as hell ain't gonna keep running.

 

[REIMktg]

The point is the significance of his assassination, that he was the first US citizen to ever be ordered killed by a US President without a trial or even being charged with a crime - that is extremely significant but the media has glossed over that very important detail.

I am certain if it was Bush & not Obama we would be hearing about it 24/7 --- & isn't that a big problem? Selective outrage.

Here we have a huge mistake by Obama, he should have issued an indictment or something so he could pretend his actions are legal, but not Obama - He's a Honey Badger -Obama doesn't give a fuck - Obama does what he wants.

 

[Moxie]

He didn't voluntarily surrender. He didn't decide to go to trial and let the court exonerate him.

He was never charged with a crime. He was automatically considered guilty with the punishment of death.

Muslim cleric Aulaqi is 1st U.S. citizen on list of those CIA is allowed to kill

Shit, people die like this all the time in shootouts with cops. No charges brought, no trial.

Those people are legally charged with crimes and then violently resist arrest.

What, this nigga deserves preferential treatment because he happened to be born inside our borders?

Why are the Son of Sam, the Green River Killer, and Charles Manson all still alive and in prison?

 

[Ar Scion]

He was never charged with a crime. He was automatically considered guilty with the punishment of death.

Muslim cleric Aulaqi is 1st U.S. citizen on list of those CIA is allowed to kill

Those people are legally charged with crimes and then violently resist arrest.

Why are the Son of Sam, the Green River Killer, and Charles Manson all still alive and in prison?

I'm not sure whether he was officially charged or not, or whether he was charged, but the details are classified. But based on knowledge of his activities, it's very likely his behavior can fit the legal definition of treason. I mean, it's not like we killed the Dalai Lama.

But there's another technicality involved here. Are we officially "at war" with Al Qaeda or not? And if we are, do we have to charge each member we go after? Or do we have another protocol when we're at war with them?

The ethical issue for me is- why should someone live long enough to go through a fair trial, while others are denied the same right, just because they are citizens of a different country? It's discrimination. Everybody should have the right to fuckin' live long enough to face trial, not just US citizens.

We don't give this guy that right. We don't give the terrorists the right. So we might as well stop pretending. We're at war. If you're a significant threat, you know it, and you refuse to comply, we're not gonna sit by and risk innocent lives sending black ops into a foreign country to try and kidnap you and bring you back home.

And there's the other thing- what about the lives of the soldiers? Is it worth risking 30, 40, 50 lives to save the life of one terrorist just to give him his right to a trial? Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. What about those rights for our soldiers?

This is just my position on the issue. I'm not saying it's law.

For that you gotta look into how it was legally justified.

 

[Moxie]

I'm not sure whether he was officially charged or not, or whether he was charged, but the details are classified.

US legal charges are public by definition, no?

But based on knowledge of his activities, it's very likely his behavior can fit the legal definition of treason. I mean, it's not like we killed the Dalai Lama.

A lot of people would not cared if Charles Manson, or even Casey Anthony, had been taken out by a missile. The problem is it opens up a can of worms that takes us away from innocent until proven guilty and more towards the type of legal systems that the founding fathers were against.

And there's the other thing- what about the lives of the soldiers? Is it worth risking 30, 40, 50 lives to save the life of one terrorist just to give him his right to a trial? Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. What about those rights for our soldiers?

They already go on capture missions and sign up knowing that they may engage in those risks. Capturing people can lead to intelligence that saves lives. The soldiers already know that they may risk their lives in an attempt to help save even more at home.

They captured Saddam. The Bin Laden story kept changing, but the last I knew the official one was that they were also trying to capture him, but he resisted and started moving towards a weapon.

 

[Ar Scion]

US legal charges are public by definition, no?

A lot of people would not cared if Charles Manson, or even Casey Anthony, had been taken out by a missile. The problem is it opens up a can of worms that takes us away from innocent until proven guilty and more towards the type of legal systems that the founding fathers were against.

They already go on capture missions and sign up knowing that they may engage in those risks. Capturing people can lead to intelligence that saves lives. The soldiers already know that they may risk their lives in an attempt to help save even more at home.

They captured Saddam. The Bin Laden story kept changing, but the last I knew the official one was that they were also trying to capture him, but he resisted and started moving towards a weapon.

The innocent until proven guilty conundrum goes out the window when someone resists arrest or fails to surrender themselves to authorities. By this I don't mean they are automatically presumed guilty, but that while pursuing them, force will be used, violence will be meted out to subdue the suspect, and lives will very likely be taken away.

I don't see how this is any different.

If the US has reason to come against any other US citizen, all they have to do is cooperate with law enforcement and lawyer up to defend themselves in a court system that is impartial enough to let off the likes of Casey Anthony.

You don't think it's justified to use deadly force to go against someone like this?

I mean, in all this we both agree that there ought to have at least been an attempt to give him some rights, and if a fair trial was part of the package, so be it.

 

[Ar Scion]

What are you not understanding about this? He did not resist - he was killed with a drone strike. He could not surrender himself because he was not charged with a crime. He wasn't "wanted" for anything - his name was on a kill list. There is nothing to surrender.

He's how he could have done it.

Here's where they were given an opportunity to surrender.

This has gotta count, bro.

 

[REIMktg]

There used to be a time when the US was regarded in other countries as an inspiration, a successful, developed and free society. Many people still hold this false perception which is furthered by western media. It simply isn't true anymore.

The US has been hated for a long time by those that despise the successful. I do not think much has changed. How far back are you reaching? By the way, there is still a large part of the world that is dying, literally willing to die, to get here.

That's why the US & western media gets called out. The politically correct doublespeak can't change:

• The fact that the US is militarily aggressive.

Yes, we are aggressive in protecting US interests. Yes, we do make mistakes - as do those that want to destroy us. I cannot defend every move by the US, that would be pointless, but when your entire population lives on oil - you must protect its free flow - & lets not forget - we gave the middle east the capability for that oil, we found it, we drilled it, they took it through nationalization and/or under threat of nationalization.

If oil stops flowing. The worldwide economy will stop. Millions will die.

• Is no longer a free society and is fast becoming one of the most nightmarish Orwellian countries in existence. This is the catalyst of your downfall really. When your DNA & prints are on file, and you can be spied upon without a court order and with shit like "gait analysis" & exit controls being deployed in airports, you are all pretty much fucked. The state has superseded the individual.

Let me know when we do not have the power to vote all of this out. If the people wanted to - they could have all of this removed. As for being a free society - I can pretty much say and do what I like. What can I not do? Smoke weed, drink and drive, bring a gun on a plane.... hardly Orwellian.

• No longer a developed nation (increasingly reminiscent of the USSR. Massive & hi-tech military hardware # developed country). The population's intellect and education has steeply declined. Many companies are bankrupt. Slower internet connectivity than many third world countries. It seems a higher premium is placed on law enforcement and military spending than economic growth itself.

Yeah. Innovation is dead in the US. Nothing happening here. Go check your stats and let me know how well everyone else is doing. Funny you should throw in the internet - the market dictates your internet speed. You dont have fiber optics where you live?

• Narcissistic & xenophobic worldview with contempt for other cultures.

Really? The whole US is a huge melting pot of cultures. So many countries that are critical of the US do not have even close to the US diversity - and the diff cultures they do have they are having serious problems with. The entire US is made of immigrants and yet the US has contempt for them? Are you nuts? DO you even live in the US? Have you even been here?

 

[Ar Scion]

US Citizen = Constitutional Rights. These articles are completely irrelevant.

I don't know how much clearer to make it. For some reason you're not grasping the significance of his citizenship.

I'm not denying the rights afforded to US Citizens.

I'm merely supplementing that fact with another set of facts:

1) That we are at war against a terrorist group that he is part of.
2) That he is actively seeking to kill Americans.
3) That while he was provided an opportunity to surrender and face trial, he refused and has continued to evade authorities for 10+ years.
4) He never attempted to make use of the constitutional rights that would have kept him alive.
5) He was located and actively operating outside of the US.

To look at the issue as solely one of US citizenship and constitutional rights is to put blinders on. It's much more than that, don't you see?

 

[Uncle Tony]

Yes, we are aggressive in protecting US interests. Yes, we do make mistakes - as do those that want to destroy us.

How is building permanent military bases in countries that you "liberate" "protecting" your own interests in any way?

Let me know when we do not have the power to vote all of this out. If the people wanted to - they could have all of this removed. As for being a free society - I can pretty much say and do what I like. What can I not do? Smoke weed, drink and drive, bring a gun on a plane.... hardly Orwellian.

"If voting could change the system, it would be illegal."

Really? The whole US is a huge melting pot of cultures. So many countries that are critical of the US do not have even close to the US diversity - and the diff cultures they do have they are having serious problems with. The entire US is made of immigrants and yet the US has contempt for them? Are you nuts? DO you even live in the US? Have you even been here?

I haven't, but I was treated like shit and made to feel very unwelcome when I applied for a tourist visa last year. It seems the only (illegal) immigrants the US welcomes are descendants of those who were on the Mayflower, and from Mexico.

 

[Uncle Tony]

To look at the issue as solely one of US citizenship and constitutional rights is to put blinders on. It's much more than that, don't you see?

I agree with this in principle, but it's the ultimate irony to see this hushed up when you hear rhetoric all the time about "American lives" and such. What the hell difference does an "American" life make? How is it better than an Iraqi or an Afghan life? That kind of phrasing sounds just like Nazi master race crap.

 

[REIMktg]

How is building permanent military bases in countries that you "liberate" "protecting" your own interests in any way?

Let me know when they tell us to leave. Not the fringe population - the government. The Saudi's love us. Our presence keeps the Royal Family in power. Our presence in Europe - you are thinking that was not needed for a time? I would love to close those bases. Korea, you are thinking we are not needed there?

"If voting could change the system, it would be illegal."

Nice quote - but not true. The fact is that I can, as a citizen, write a law, get signatures, get it on the ballot, and make a law. Now that is a State - California. I can also rally money and put laws on the books in the US as well as vote for Congress to make changes. If enough voters want it - it will happen. Not enough voters really wanted us out of Iraq prematurely - that is your "social bubble".

I worked for some international lobbyists at one time. It is not that hard for citizens to change laws.

I haven't, but I was treated like shit and made to feel very unwelcome when I applied for a tourist visa last year. It seems the only (illegal) immigrants the US welcomes are descendants of those who were on the Mayflower, and from Mexico.

I am sorry for your experience. But I know immigrants from all over the world that are loving it here. From South America, Asia, Eastern Europe etc You name it. They are pretty happy here and happy with the class mobility and open opportunities.

 

[Uncle Tony]

Let me know when they tell us to leave. Not the fringe population - the government. The Saudi's love us. Our presence keeps the Royal Family in power. Our presence in Europe - you are thinking that was not needed for a time? I would love to close those bases. Korea, you are thinking we are not needed there?

I was referring moreso to Afghanistan & Iraq. The entire population hates you, it's the puppet government that's fringe really.

Nice quote - but not true. The fact is that I can, as a citizen, write a law, get signatures, get it on the ballot, and make a law. Now that is a State - California. I can also rally money and put laws on the books in the US as well as vote for Congress to make changes. If enough voters want it - it will happen. Not enough voters really wanted us out of Iraq prematurely - that is your "social bubble".

The problem with this idealism is that the majority of people are stupid and increasingly so, and therefore can't be relied upon to vote in positive developments.

I am sorry for your experience. But I know immigrants from all over the world that are loving it here. From South America, Asia, Eastern Europe etc You name it. They are pretty happy here and happy with the class mobility and open opportunities.

It's alright, I got the visa but postponed/canceled my trip. It was a revelation though, as to how self righteous US government drones abuse their positions of power (might make a thread about the whole experience if anyone gives a shit). It certainly isn't encouraging for people trying to do things the legal way. If I hadn't got the visa I wouldn't have bothered re-applying at all and instead just crossed illegally from Mexico or skydived into the territory whenever I wanted to visit. Why should a person respect US law when the US doesn't respect him?

 

[REIMktg]

I was referring more so to Afghanistan & Iraq. The entire population hates you, it's the puppet government that's fringe really.

Then let the people vote them out. There are free elections. Then let that Govt work toward not harboring terrorists and we will gladly leave. Pretty simple, we do not want to be there either.

The problem with this idealism is that the majority of people are stupid and increasingly so, and therefore can't be relied upon to vote in positive developments.

You made this comment in reference to my stating how easy it is to change laws. The problem is that, possibly, you think everyone that disagrees with you is stupid. Maybe they are not stupid and they simply disagree and do not want to implement your ideas. I love how so many people think they are smarter than the US voter.

It's alright, I got the visa but postponed/canceled my trip. It was a revelation though, as to how self righteous US government drones abuse their positions of power (might make a thread about the whole experience if anyone gives a shit). It certainly isn't encouraging for people trying to do things the legal way. If I hadn't got the visa I wouldn't have bothered re-applying at all and instead just crossed illegally from Mexico or skydived into the territory whenever I wanted to visit. Why should a person respect US law when the US doesn't respect him?

Your last sentence is an interesting type of arrogance.


As for the skydiving comment - that is interesting that you said that - I was watching about 30 drop from the sky while driving through Perris, CA (an international skydiving destination) just yesterday and I thought - what a easy way to get in, get past the Temecula checkpoint, and be dropped in an area where no one would even notice.

 

[REIMktg]

One more thought on Al Awlaki.

If this video is accurate then he claimed to be at war with America, called for the death of American soldiers, etc.

It seems that if you claim to be a part of an organization, AL Queda, that the US is at war with. & You yourself claim in TV interviews you are at war with the US. Then you are a legit target. I understand the high minded claims of he was a citizen, but he was a citizen at war with the US and an active member of an organization the US is at war with.

It cuts both ways. Should everyone be protected just because they are US citizens when they are literally a leader in an enemy army?

 

[Ar Scion]

Prove it at trial - that's why we have the system we do. We falsely accuse people of being involved in terrorist plots occasionally. By allowing due process, you mitigate the risk of killing an innocent man.



When was he offered a chance to surrender? He wasn't "Wanted" for any crime, he was on a targeted Kill List. There is nothing to surrender for when the government does not want to arrest you. The government was sued by Al-Awlaki's father and the ACLU to try and remove his name from the targeted kill list so that he could turn himself in, but the lawsuit was tossed out and he was kept on the kill list.

Let me put this in clearer terms for you - if he had walked up to a soldier, hands raised and given his name the soldier would have been required to shoot him dead. The President of the United States ordered his assassination, not his capture. They did not want to take him into custody. You keep saying he could turn himself in, so you clearly aren't understanding that aspect of it.

Let me put it in even clearer terms - suppose the police (or any other armed enforcement agency) notifies you by writing that they are coming to kill you. Are you going to wait until they get to your front door and say "come out so we can kill you". Then pretend you call 911 and tell them you want to turn yourself in safely because these goons outside want to kill you, and the operator says "sorry, we can't take you because we've been ordered to kill you". Would you run and hide, or would you go and let them put a bullet in your head?

Now let's remember that this is the "War on Terror", isn't a real war any more than the "War on Drugs" is. So should we send drones into Miami to start killing suspected coke dealers? The US Constitution draws a clear line, and we've just erased it. So where would you draw the line? If our Government (which doesn't make mistakes) says you're a bad guy you can be assassinated, since it will save us money on a trial and incarceration?

I posted a link to the article in a previous post, where soon after 9/11, Al Qaeda operatives were given the opportunity to surrender to US forces, with a deadline. I believe that was back in 2001. Check my previous post or the one before it.

So he's had about 10 years to surrender. This is inarguable.

Send a postcard, make a video. Send an email, a tweet, poke em on facebook. This guy is AQ's internet maverick, he can find a way to communicate his willingness to give himself up.

You're saying if someone is on a targeted kill list, they can't voluntarily surrender. This is a violation not only of his human rights, but of rules of war and puts the US at risk of being charged with war crimes.

There's no way your scenario holds up. He always has retained the right to surrender, especially as such a high profile person of media interest.

But when there's documented proof that killing someone who surrenders amounts to a war crime, I'd like to see the same standard of proof demonstrating that the US would kill someone who was surrendering.

If, Zeus forbid I was put in such a situation and I was killed while trying to surrender, the media would be all over the injustice of the situation.

Your concerns are warranted, bro. We have erased a line in the legal world. But we haven't erased a line in intention. We haven't erased a line in media scrutiny and backlash. We haven't erased a line in activism for citizen rights and protection.

If shit like that goes down on US soil- heck if police accidentally shoot a child, they get into a shitload of trouble.